Match Threads Brighton vs Spurs - Match Thread - Day 20

[cjbyid]

Thing with spurs through the years is we've all seen performances like last night in either half under loads of managers but we used to come out after the HT break and step it up a gear.

That has completely gone now though, once Brighton went ahead last night I knew that was it.

Not even disappointed this morning after last night, just a bit fed up.

 

[Gspurs11]

This is sophistry - its essentially saying that the only thing that matters is tactics. It also suggests that every other club employs super-secretive tactics or changes them every match.

Every club has a basic manner of play determined by the personnel they have and the wishes of their manager. Every manager worth their salt can identify the tactics employed by their opposition on a basic level by watching them play for only a short period, never mind the analysts employed by the elite clubs. Any manager can 'find out' the way the opposition are going to play before a ball is kicked in anger.

So we know, for instance, that Liverpool like to switch play using their fullbacks, or Leicester like to play with a rapid counter or that Man City look to pass the ball into the box. Have they all been 'found out' too? Of course not.

Tactics only play one part of a football match. The players actually playing the match are far more important. Would Liverpool or Man City be quite so lethal if their players only put in "50%" effort? Would Leeds be quite so mercurial?

Look at Leicester's title run. Are we seriously suggesting that throughout their run, not one single opposition manager had the wherewithal to work out precisely what their vulnerabilities were and exploit them and so demonstrate to the rest of the League how to stop the madness? How come they weren't 'found out?'

We should put it to the test: One team paying at full intensity against another that treats it as a gentle preseason warm up. I know who I'd put my money on. But according to the 'found-out' narrative, the players are all immaterial. So why play the games at all? Here's an idea: let's just have a 'tactics panel' that tests the relative knowledge of the two managers and the one who can explain the opposition's tactics better gets the three points. Because we've been found out, so there's no reason to play matches at all, is there?

This isn't Football Manager. There's no 'super-tactic' that managers can click that breaks the game. If it was, then how come we're not losing every match? Surely when Liverpool were helping out Marine, they could have whispered in their manager's ear, 'pssst - this is the tactic you need to employ to beat Tottenham.' He would have then clicked on 'Tactics', moved his chaps around on the screen and the minnowy Marine would have had a giant-killing.

The 'found-out' idea is just another lazy narrative - a melange of idiotic Sky-esque punditry, mixed with Football Manager, FIFA and PES as if they relates in any real way to what actually happens in football. Nicely packaged and swallowed whole.

I can't be bothered to respond to all of this and as you've clearly got quite agitated I apologise for that - I was venting.

Maybe it is sophistry and I've reduced it down to a very simply binary of tactics working/ not working. But at the moment our play is stifled and has been since the NLD. You're probably right to an extent; some of this boils down to the players as individuals making bad decisions and their agency but you seem to absolve the manager of any responsibility for the malaise currently happening on the pitch.

 

[rez9000]

I can't be bothered to respond to all of this and as you've clearly got quite agitated I apologise for that - I was venting.

Maybe it is sophistry and I've reduced it down to a very simply binary of tactics working/ not working. But at the moment our play is stifled and has been since the NLD. You're probably right to an extent; some of this boils down to the players as individuals making bad decisions and their agency but you seem to absolve the manager of any responsibility for the malaise currently happening on the pitch.

The key difference is that I'm not in the blame game. I don't see it as a situation in which we have to have an individual excoriated. I'm a Spurs supporter - my job, my duty as a supporter is to support. Not seek to place blame. When we use words like 'responsibility' that's what it's boiling down to: "I'm angry and so I need to make someone the target of my anger."

As I've been saying: too much emotionalism, too much preconception, too much swallowing of lazy narratives.

 

[HedgieSpur]

I asked questions @HedgieSpur . If you're going to disagree at least have a stab at answering them.

Im now back to answer your questions!

I don't think anybody is seriously saying that these problems didn't exist prior to Jose coming. The main bone of contention is that, for his $15m a year, these issues STILL occur and in some respects appear to be getting worse.

If, as he no doubt contends, Jose tells the players to attack and they don't listen to him then surely that calls into judgement his capabilities as a manager? Moreover, if there's "nothing we can do cos the players are shit" (you haven't said this but others have) then why have such a expensive manager?

Our team is a shambles. We look like we turn up to games with little to no plan other than to have a low block and hit on the counter. You can see the lack of direction and the lack of knowledge in the players.

Thats on Jose to fix and he really needs to do it asap.

 

[HedgieSpur]

Fair point - However, I do believe the game plan is there... (v. high level): when under attack, then break with a fast counter. When attacking, feed front three beating the offside trap. Only thing is that the players have to step up to pull it off. It looks like we were pedestrian on the breaks, missing the runs and suffering poor form of the front three (it was especially disturbing to see Lucas struggle the way he did). So, in all fairness I wouldn't put everything at Jose's doorstep.

This season, the boom bust cycles are also more frequent and more volatile due to its atypical circumstances. One only needs to the look at the league positions of certain 'lesser teams' throughout this season to illustrate this point. It's just a bad patch and it'll pass... if this season showed anything, it's just that! Jose Mourinho is one of, if not THE best manager in the world and we're lucky to have him.

So if Jose is the best manager in the world (or one of)...why aren't we seeing it? Is it simply all down to the players in your view?

 

[CrazyHeart]

So if Jose is the best manager in the world (or one of)...why aren't we seeing it? Is it simply all down to the players in your view?

Well, we were seeing it when we were getting results earlier this season along with performances that deserved more (if not for individual mistakes). That being said - of course Jose bears some accountability for the poor run. All I'm saying is that it's a plethora of factors and don't believe that he alone should be on the hook (as many here seem to suggest). Even the best have bad days at the office and dark periods to navigate through. Jose's true mettle will be proven in getting us back on track... I'm backing him to do just that.

 

[Gspurs11]

The key difference is that I'm not in the blame game. I don't see it as a situation in which we have to have an individual excoriated. I'm a Spurs supporter - my job, my duty as a supporter is to support. Not seek to place blame. When we use words like 'responsibility' that's what it's boiling down to: "I'm angry and so I need to make someone the target of my anger."

As I've been saying: too much emotionalism, too much preconception, too much swallowing of lazy narratives.

I do agree with you on that and I'm guilty of it but football is very emotionally raw and I'm reactive to it. It's hard to apply rationality to a situation I've been so emotionally invested in for the vast majority of my life, yet I admire people who can!

 

[rez9000]

Im now back to answer your questions!

I don't think anybody is seriously saying that these problems didn't exist prior to Jose coming. The main bone of contention is that, for his $15m a year, these issues STILL occur and in some respects appear to be getting worse.

If, as he no doubt contends, Jose tells the players to attack and they don't listen to him then surely that calls into judgement his capabilities as a manager? Moreover, if there's "nothing we can do cos the players are shit" (you haven't said this but others have) then why have such a expensive manager?

Our team is a shambles. We look like we turn up to games with little to no plan other than to have a low block and hit on the counter. You can see the lack of direction and the lack of knowledge in the players.

Thats on Jose to fix and he really needs to do it asap.

I don't disagree that a manager's job is to harness and enhance the good things about his squad and to mitigate the bad things.

The point however is that there is no defined time limit in which that can be expected to happen as every squad is different. And if you have a situation in which you have specific problems that can't be dealt with quickly, then it matters not who the manager is. But some people scream and shout as if it's all Mourinho's fault. That he's the only agency responsible for it and if he's not fixed it by yesterday, he's incompetent or more stupidly, a "****". Like a manager's public profile has anything to do with his ability to do the job.

And, you know what, it's not just under Mourinho and Pochettino. This is what our club has been like since Scholar. Look at our managers. None of them managed to get a real tune out of our players consistently, regardless of if the quality of player was crap or good.

Our previous manager made one of the most idiotic, morale-sapping, bonkers statements I've ever heard from a manager on the eve of arguably the biggest game in our history. What the fuck possessed him to say that? And yet, with his zero trophies in five years, after essentially fucking his squad and fucking his career with us at the same time, he's the one treated like the saint and Mourinho, the serial winner who has got us to a cup final at the first attempt, is the spawn of Satan. It makes my mind boggle.

Just to be clear, I have massive regard for Poch and feel he is rightly viewed warmly by us - but the truth is that he didn't achieve anything with us. There is nothing to point to to say 'he did that'. Nothing. Mourinho has done and won it all. Every amangerial appointment is a gamble, but when this man has won something at every single top-flight club he's managed, isn't he a safer bet than Nagelsmann or Rodgers or, God help me, Eddie Howe?

Nagelsmann! Christ! Yeah, he's a real winner. The halls of football ring out with the cries of people lauding him for his mighty triumph in winning the Bundesliga U19 Championship 2014! My God, why are we not throwing ourselves at the feet of this man, promising him wine, fragrant sweetmeats and women (or men, or both, if he's that way inclined)? This colossus of football, a 33-year-old veteran, bestriding the world of football and leading his money-drenched club to... second in the Bundesliga.

Mourinho? No. He's only won the Champions League twice (with Inter and bloody Porto no less), the Europa League / UEFA Cup twice, the Premier League three times (more than any other manager except Ferguson and Wenger), La Liga, Serie A twice, four League Cups, an FA Cup, the Spanish Cup, the Coppa Italia. No thanks - we're so successful, we're so highly-spoken of, we're such a giant of the game, that we can afford to be choosy about the fucking style of football we play! Because, really, trophies are so 1980s, y'know? So passé. No, no, the style of football or the previous exploits and personality of a manager is of faaaaar greater importance.

The arrogance of it.

I've been saying it for a long time - there is something rotten in the mindset, the culture, the DNA, whatever wanky phrase one chooses to define it with at our club. It was there before but it was exacerbated by things like barren transfer windows and being gutpunched in too many semi-finals and finals. And the existence of that means it doesn't matter who the manager is, it will always cause us to implode until such time as we can get rid of that thought-process.

All those wanking themselves into comas at the prospect of a Nagelsmann, or a Rodgers, or an Allegri would do better to resign themselves to the fact that they will face the very same factors as Mourinho does now and there is no guarantee that anything will change.

We need to win something. On that score, he is the one with form. Not Nagelsmann, not Howe, not even Allegri (to the degree that Mourinho has). There are no guarantees; as I said, it's always a gamble. But the safer bet is Mourinho, not some 33-year-old.

Now Nagelsmann may turn out to be even better than Mourinho, who knows; but right now, he's achieved nothing. Allegri has won nothing outside Italy and has been out of work for more than 18 months. I'm not even going to dignify the idea of Eddie Howe.

People need to stop being so precious, put their personal dislike aside, understand that there are bigger issues to deal with than style, get behind Mourinho, get behind our players, get behind our club and stop this fucking idiotic frothing-at-the-mouth bullshit that spills onto these pages every time something goes awry.

I may as well ask for the Moon.

 

[rez9000]

I do agree with you on that and I'm guilty of it but football is very emotionally raw and I'm reactive to it. It's hard to apply rationality to a situation I've been so emotionally invested in for the vast majority of my life, yet I admire people who can!

Don't get rid of it completely. That's just taking it to the other extreme. We just all need to be calmer and a little more objective (he said after ranting on just before!)

 

[rupsmith]

It’s Monday morning, the day after the Brighton fiasco and my mood has not lightened nor changed. I am not a regular contributor to this group but I need this outlet or somewhere to vent my continuing anger and dissatisfaction.

Having been a Spurs fan for nearly 60 years I don’t think I have ever felt more depressed and dispirited about the club that I love, and eclipses even those feelings I had during the very ordinary days we endured during the 70s-00s. At least in those days we didn’t expect that much, maybe a cup or 2, but invariably nowhere near the League title. I guess the Poch era heralded a level of expectation that raised the bar, which makes it even more painful for us fans to see us slide into a level of such mediocrity.

It was the manner of our defeat that bothers me most. We had absolutely nothing worthy of note from start to finish. No movement, no leadership, no idea, no energy, no commitment __ the list goes on. My paper gave ratings of mainly 6’s for our players. 6 = average; "Average" __ if only!

Even West Brom and Sheff Utd try to play a bit of football. Our midfield stinks with only Hojbjerg trying to cover the gaps left by his teammates. The rest of them can’t attack, nor defend meaning that our back-4/back-3 are constantly exposed (btw I thought Toby was immense). Significantly our main playmaker __ Ndombele __ got his first touch after 12 minutes! And how we can have such a technically challenged midfielder __ Sissoko __ playing as a wing-back is beyond me.

Rant over, I’m going back to bed.

It is very important to vent sir. It is genuinely mentally relieving - specially when venting to others who are also feeling the pain.

I truly believe in Jose. I think we have too many players in our squad who are simply not good enough to be challenging for the league or even consistently for the top 4 .

- Hugo has too many mistakes in him
- Aurier the same
- Sanchez the same
- Davis mid table
- Winks mid table
- Sissoko - bottom third of the league team
- Lamela - bottom third of the league team
- Dier, Bergwyn, Vinicius and Moura - I think they have technique and add value when surrounded by better players - they are not good enough to carry the team.
Toby - brilliant but only a couple more seasons left
Dele - lost his mojo

Son, Kane, PEH, Ndombele - great players who do a lot of the carrying

 

[HedgieSpur]

I don't disagree that a manager's job is to harness and enhance the good things about his squad and to mitigate the bad things.

The point however is that there is no defined time limit in which that can be expected to happen as every squad is different. And if you have a situation in which you have specific problems that can't be dealt with quickly, then it matters not who the manager is. But some people scream and shout as if it's all Mourinho's fault. That he's the only agency responsible for it and if he's not fixed it by yesterday, he's incompetent or more stupidly, a "****". Like a manager's public profile has anything to do with his ability to do the job.

And, you know what, it's not just under Mourinho and Pochettino. This is what our club has been like since Scholar. Look at our managers. None of them managed to get a real tune out of our players consistently, regardless of if the quality of player was crap or good.

Our previous manager made one of the most idiotic, morale-sapping, bonkers statements I've ever heard from a manager on the eve of arguably the biggest game in our history. What the fuck possessed him to say that? And yet, with his zero trophies in five years, after essentially fucking his squad and fucking his career with us at the same time, he's the one treated like the saint and Mourinho, the serial winner who has got us to a cup final at the first attempt, is the spawn of Satan. It makes my mind boggle.

Just to be clear, I have massive regard for Poch and feel he is rightly viewed warmly by us - but the truth is that he didn't achieve anything with us. There is nothing to point to to say 'he did that'. Nothing. Mourinho has done and won it all. Every amangerial appointment is a gamble, but when this man has won something at every single top-flight club he's managed, isn't he a safer bet than Nagelsmann or Rodgers or, God help me, Eddie Howe?

Nagelsmann! Christ! Yeah, he's a real winner. The halls of football ring out with the cries of people lauding him for his mighty triumph in winning the Bundesliga U19 Championship 2014! My God, why are we not throwing ourselves at the feet of this man, promising him wine, fragrant sweetmeats and women (or men, or both, if he's that way inclined)? This colossus of football, a 33-year-old veteran, bestriding the world of football and leading his money-drenched club to... second in the Bundesliga.

Mourinho? No. He's only won the Champions League twice (with Inter and bloody Porto no less), the Europa League / UEFA Cup twice, the Premier League three times (more than any other manager except Ferguson and Wenger), La Liga, Serie A twice, four League Cups, an FA Cup, the Spanish Cup, the Coppa Italia. No thanks - we're so successful, we're so highly-spoken of, we're such a giant of the game, that we can afford to be choosy about the fucking style of football we play! Because, really, trophies are so 1980s, y'know? So passé. No, no, the style of football or the previous exploits and personality of a manager is of faaaaar greater importance.

The arrogance of it.

I've been saying it for a long time - there is something rotten in the mindset, the culture, the DNA, whatever wanky phrase one chooses to define it with at our club. It was there before but it was exacerbated by things like barren transfer windows and being gutpunched in too many semi-finals and finals. And the existence of that means it doesn't matter who the manager is, it will always cause us to implode until such time as we can get rid of that thought-process.

All those wanking themselves into comas at the prospect of a Nagelsmann, or a Rodgers, or an Allegri would do better to resign themselves to the fact that they will face the very same factors as Mourinho does now and there is no guarantee that anything will change.

We need to win something. On that score, he is the one with form. Not Nagelsmann, not Howe, not even Allegri (to the degree that Mourinho has). There are no guarantees; as I said, it's always a gamble. But the safer bet is Mourinho, not some 33-year-old.

Now Nagelsmann may turn out to be even better than Mourinho, who knows; but right now, he's achieved nothing. Allegri has won nothing outside Italy and has been out of work for more than 18 months. I'm not even going to dignify the idea of Eddie Howe.

People need to stop being so precious, put their personal dislike aside, understand that there are bigger issues to deal with than style, get behind Mourinho, get behind our players, get behind our club and stop this fucking idiotic frothing-at-the-mouth bullshit that spills onto these pages every time something goes awry.

I may as well ask for the Moon.

Now its my turn to put your same argument back to you...this nonsense about "something wrong with our DNA blah blah" is frankly nonsense. Fans talk as if somehow we are "cursed" rather than the fact that as a club and as custodians of the clubs, significant errors have been made in the past and (in Jose's case) continue to be made. By using the lazy, pre-packaged "something in our DNA" narrative one is immediately building in an excuse as to why we don't achieve the things we should. Moreover, I repeat, if "nothing can be done...its the players fault" then I see no real value in having Jose or indeed any manager at all.

Jose is the "CEO" of the team...while he cannot individually do each role, he is the strategic leader who should be clearly articulating what he wants from each player. Where those players are unwilling or unable to execute on his wishes then said player shouldn't be in the team. If NONE of his players are able or willing to execute his demands then he should be getting Levy to get new ones and ultimately if Levy is unwilling or unable to do so then Jose should walk.

What he cannot do is to absolve himself of the responsibility of being the leader. Crucially, we fans shouldn't facilitate it either

 

[rez9000]

Now its my turn to put your same argument back to you...this nonsense about "something wrong with our DNA blah blah" is frankly nonsense. Fans talk as if somehow we are "cursed" rather than the fact that as a club and as custodians of the clubs, significant errors have been made in the past and (in Jose's case) continue to be made. By using the lazy, pre-packaged "something in our DNA" narrative one is immediately building in an excuse as to why we don't achieve the things we should. Moreover, I repeat, if "nothing can be done...its the players fault" then I see no real value in having Jose or indeed any manager at all.

Jose is the "CEO" of the team...while he cannot individually do each role, he is the strategic leader who should be clearly articulating what he wants from each player. Where those players are unwilling or unable to execute on his wishes then said player shouldn't be in the team. If NONE of his players are able or willing to execute his demands then he should be getting Levy to get new ones and ultimately if Levy is unwilling or unable to do so then Jose should walk.

What he cannot do is to absolve himself of the responsibility of being the leader. Crucially, we fans shouldn't facilitate it either

Why should it be defined in those terms, though? Why is always about blame? Why can't it be acknowledging that it's a difficult situation, and a complex one and understanding that the 'CEO' (which he isn't by the way) is up against a very challenging situation and that perhaps the best thing we can do is not constantly be spitting bile and vitriol at him?

But if you want to play the blame game, why is it always about one person? Was Mourinho the one to misplace all those passes last night? Was he the one who didn't sprint after balls, press the opponents?

If he can't get a tune out of these players, are the players in no way responsible?

If you want to put it in terms of a business and he's the CEO, last time I checked, when an employee doesn't do what the CEO wants, it's the employee that stares down at a P45, not the CEO.

 

[Tiffers]

I just think Jose has lost the dressing room and the players no longer respect or admire him. He has IMO treated our favourite sons ( Dele, Toby, Bald, Rose) so badly and the players know that as well.

 

[HedgieSpur]

Why should it be defined in those terms, though? Why is always about blame? Why can't it be acknowledging that it's a difficult situation, and a complex one and understanding that the 'CEO' (which he isn't by the way) is up against a very challenging situation and that perhaps the best thing we can do is not constantly be spitting bile and vitriol at him?

But if you want to play the blame game, why is it always about one person? Was Mourinho the one to misplace all those passes last night? Was he the one who didn't sprint after balls, press the opponents?

If he can't get a tune out of these players, are the players in no way responsible?

If you want to put it in terms of a business and he's the CEO, last time I checked, when an employee doesn't do what the CEO wants, it's the employee that stares down at a P45, not the CEO.

As I always tell my kids "Its not BLAME its taking RESPONSIBILITY". Blame is a pejorative term...Jose has to be accountable, ditto Hitchen, Levy and the players. Without responsibility and acknowledgement of what has gone wrong, how can we improve?

 

[rez9000]

As I always tell my kids "Its not BLAME its taking RESPONSIBILITY". Blame is a pejorative term...Jose has to be accountable, ditto Hitchen, Levy and the players. Without responsibility and acknowledgement of what has gone wrong, how can we improve?

Mourinho is accountable. To Daniel Levy. If that's the basis of your argument, you actually take away your own right to critique because you're saying that all that's needed is accountability, which exists.

 

[HedgieSpur]

Mourinho is accountable. To Daniel Levy. If that's the basis of your argument, you actually take away your own right to critique because you're saying that all that's needed is accountability, which exists.

This is where we have to agree to disagree. I had the pleasure a few years ago of meeting my favourite manager in all my time of supporting Spurs, Keith Burkinshaw. Not only was he a fantastic guy but he was very explicit in his view that managers are accountable first and foremost to the supporters. I even once met the late great James Brown in Atlanta many years ago and he told me that he loved performing because he OWED his fans great performances because of their support.

Clearly this is where we differ. It appears that you are happy for the manager to only be accountable to Levy and that fans should simply accept whatever is being fed to them because ultimately Levy will make the decisions re: Jose. For me, as I said earlier, Jose is the CEO and it is reprehensible for him not to take full accountability for the current shambles on the pitch, just as it would be on Levy if we were a shambles in the boardroom. You cannot have performance improvement without acknowledgement of culpability and accountability imo.

 

[DiVaio]

- Hugo has too many mistakes in him

He literally made 1 or 2 errors leading to goal since he came back from injury in 2020. You can easily find a lot of arguments to say he is the best shotstopper in the league.

 

[Shadydan]

I just think Jose has lost the dressing room and the players no longer respect or admire him. He has IMO treated our favourite sons ( Dele, Toby, Bald, Rose) so badly and the players know that as well.

A world away from how Poch treated them in all honesty.

 

[rez9000]

This is where we have to agree to disagree. I had the pleasure a few years ago of meeting my favourite manager in all my time of supporting Spurs, Keith Burkinshaw. Not only was he a fantastic guy but he was very explicit in his view that managers are accountable first and foremost to the supporters. I even once met the late great James Brown in Atlanta many years ago and he told me that he loved performing because he OWED his fans great performances because of their support.

Clearly this is where we differ. It appears that you are happy for the manager to only be accountable to Levy and that fans should simply accept whatever is being fed to them because ultimately Levy will make the decisions re: Jose. For me, as I said earlier, Jose is the CEO and it is reprehensible for him not to take full accountability for the current shambles on the pitch, just as it would be on Levy if we were a shambles in the boardroom. You cannot have performance improvement without acknowledgement of culpability and accountability imo.

That was a long time ago, buddy, and if I had my druthers it would still be like that now. But the reality is that it isn't like that. Whether we agree with the business-isation (to coin a phrase) of football one consequence is that the outcomes carry far more weight and have to be treated in a much more business-like way. I'm not happy about the disconnect between clubs and fans - I think it removes the soul from football. But my own happiness is neither here nor there. Ultimately, I'm a captive to my own loyalties.

That's actually where your analogy does come into play. The manager of the team being an important executive within the organisational structure. Whether it's a good thing or bad thing, the actual manner in which that executive performs against his performance indicators is not something that he has to account to his customers to in this instance. Making football a business does mean that ultimately, supporters are customers and the choice we have is accept it or leave.

Not that I'm advocating or supporting that scenario - just seeing it for what it is.

 

[fortworthspur]

4 CBs in the starting line-up, and we wonder why we struggle to score.