ENIC...

[LeParisien]

im curious, where is your line in the sand with Levy.

I’ve frequently laid lines in the sand. Last feb with Poch I said I expected levy to invest significantly in the squad. He did.

I’ve also been critical of the Mourinho hire from day -1 and laid responsibility for that firmly with levy.

I’m willing to lay responsibility at his door and say what I expect going forward in a clear way. What I’m not going to do is blame him based on hindsight or unrealistic expectations.

Now you go - three chairmen you’d rather have anywhere in the world.

Are you his love child?

So I’ve been reasonable and tried to discuss our club and you spam things that aren’t spam and come up with that? Come on, don’t waste my time

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Are you his love child?

Come on, mate. Play the ball, not the man. We're all Spurs fans.

 

[sausage]

im amazed people still can’t see through Enic..If it’s a building project they are interested.
we literally have a cone man as manager..

No, we literally don't. We have Ryan Mason, and it's more than insulting to suggest he's in no way deserving of a chance.

So far he's come across as bright and articulate. They have to start somewhere, and the snobbery is part of the issue that we have with managers.

 

[SpursSince1980]

I think you're cherry picking to suit an agenda. Everton won the league 35 years ago - the game has changed a lot since.

In bigger contexts, we've won the (top) league only twice in 138 years. Up until ENIC's takeover, it had been some 40 years. What right does that actually give us to win it again within the last 20 years, when our average was once every 60?

Furthermore, they/we were unlucky enough to see Super-wealth coming in at both Chelsea and City. They are pretty much the two most dominant teams of this century so far. So that's where our part of a 'top 4' makes us the 'top 6'.

Even now, you have (basically) mega wealth behind Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Everton, Leicester. Even Brighton and WBA have a Billionaire owner. Southampton (Jisheng) and Palace (Harris) also have 3bn in wealth. Guangchang at Wolves is wealthier than Lewis. Sawiris at Villa even more again. Khan at Fulham is worth around 6bn.

I don't understand what 'right' we have to be doing any better than we have been, to be honest. We've been close, and the difference in finals and semis hasn't really been down to anything other than tactics or mentality.

'Right'? What the flying monkey cock are you talking about? That's your takeaway? When did I say anything about Spurs fan entitlement and a 'right we have to be doing better than we have been’? Seriously. Where did I say this or imply it or even fart in its general direction?

I did say, however... we do have a right to feel frustrated.

Was explaining why emotions run high on this topic, in particular. As that's just the nature of being a fan. Especially at Spurs.

I have no agenda. Let me be clear about that. 'Cherry picking' this, or that, or whatever...! Since when did expressing to someone, why some fans may get emotional or annoyed or frustrated, by citing examples of what prompts that frustration... is considered as 'cherry picking to suit an agenda?'

Good grief, Charlie Brown.

 

[ohtottenham!]

He sold the club 10 years ago after it went into administration

They were in the PL twice during his reign, gong straight back down on each occasion

At least they didn’t do a Leeds...

He was chairman from 2000-2010. They only had one PL season during that time.

 

[piedpiper]

How about this new way of doing things with the world class academy? Where are all these eager talents? It has produced just Harry Winks so far

i'm the last person to wanna defend Enic/Levy but a small correction......

Andros Townsend/Harry Kane/Ryan Mason/Oliver Skipp/CCV just to name a few at the top of my head.

Players not making to the first team is more a product of the manager and giving youth talent opportunities.

 

[LeParisien]

Sorry to be a contrarian again, but I think there is a remote possibility that there are two aspects of being a chairman that is being conflated. There is what he does to run the club as a business. In that sense, given everything he has achieved, and in context of how other clubs are run, how other clubs have relied on crazy rich owners, he has done a brilliant job. Truly has set up Tottenham Hotspur to be fiscal juggernauts in the future. And it shall be achieved the right way, and without having to rely on financially risky/foolhardy decision making. It has taken a long time to get to where we are now, and if not for the Covid situation, I think we would see the full benefits of what the commercial side of the business can hopefully bring to the footballing side.

You are correct. It is very hard to win. Especially in a league where some clubs have bottomless pockets, while others are already well established powerhouses who are flush with cash, due to the size of their stadium, merchandising and branding.

Go through my post history since 2011. You'll see, by and large, I've mostly been positive about Daniel. Yes, frustrated from time to time. But also tip my hat at what he has achieved, that few would dare even consider, let alone take on and see through to fruition.

Then there is the other side of what a football team does... playing football.

We are an elite set of teams, that have been in Division 1, until it was the Premier League, from the late 1970s, until now. The others I believe are: Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton. Even the almighty Chelsea were relegated in 1987.

Let's look at what each of the four above have achieved since 1980:

Everton - 2 FA Cups, 2 Div 1 titles, 1 UEFA Cup
Liverpool -5 FA Cups, 7 Div1/PL titles, 4 European/CL Cups, 8 League Cups, 3 UEFA cups
Man U - 7 FA Cups, 13 PL titles, 5 league cups, 3 European/CL Cups
Tottenham - 3 FA Cups, 2 League Cups, 1 UEFA cup

For Tottenham, since 1991 we have one a grand total of two honors: trophies were League Cups (1999, 2008). Highest Div 1/PL position in since 1980: Second x1.

ENIC took control of Spurs in 2001.
Since then, we have one league cup.
Runners up in a CL.
Runners up in 9 millions FA cup semi finals
Runners up in a few League Cups
Highest league finish is 2nd.
Qualified for the CL 4 times.

So, in 20 years, on the footballing side, yes it is very clear we have struggled.
Yes, it is difficult to win. Everyone understands that.

But you can't cast aspersions at Spurs fans for feeling frustrated that we haven't achieved more in terms of honors, since Daniel took charge. It's only natural. It's why we support a team. To see us winning things.

I've supported Spurs since 1980. First, it was as matter of survival (story for another time)... and then eventually I fell in love.

I was in Wembley in 1991 when we won the FA Cup. It was a beautiful thing to behold.

So, yeah... given we are one of four teams to be good enough to be in the England's top division since 1980... it goes without saying that there is going to be annoyance and lack of patience. We are supposedly a big club. Yet... fucking Leeds and Blackburn and Leicester and Everton have won the league during that time. And the best we could do is finish 2nd... once.

Don't patronize fans for simply wanting to win. Don't conflate business of a football club with the footballing of a football club. These are two very different things. One of which Daniel has handled better than anyone else out there. The other... well, the results speak for themselves.

Whether right or wrong many feel the Chairman could have delivered more on the Footballing side since 2001.

We are fed up with be also-rans. Fed up with occasionally getting close enough to touch the stars, only for it be snatched away.

There is no sensibility or sanity or rationality when it comes to being a dyed-in-the-wool football fan. It's emotional. Irrational. Idiotic even. And when emotions run high, people lash out. And I think if there are any fans in the PL who are more than entitled to have nonsensical pity parties and riotous rage, it's those of Tottenham Hotspur. Logic has nothing to do with it. Practicality and reality have nothing to do with it. As those are not steady-state traits of ardent sports fans. Especially those of this club.

You wanna see some real fucking capricious crankiness and absurd irrationality - try spending a day in Philly, talking to an Eagles fan.

Sorry if it annoys you that some fans get a pissy with Levy. Sorry it prompts you to tell other fans that they are not being realistic. But, can you blame us? We're fucking Spurs fans, for crying out loud. What do you expect?

That’s a heartfelt post and I respect it.

Im afraid it’s still not rational enough for me but I accept that this is a personality issue as well.

You hold the fact we have never been relegated since the 1970s up as proof of our elite status. But Spurs have maintained that « elite » status under ENIC. I’m not convinced that’s really such an elite thing but I’ll accept it for now. What I would strongly deny is that this quirk means we should expect to be challenging for titles. It means nothing of the sort. Clearly teams have had more erratic paths due to all sorts of reasons. City and Chelsea have both been relegated but an influx of dirty money has enabled them to compete at the very top of the game for 10/15 years. Blackburn burned brightly for a very short period of time but noone would swap that for our consistent performance.

I don’t understand what the entitlement to « riotous rage » is based on other than a desire to be emotional. If people want to be emotional that’s fine but let’s at least agree that those do not imply rational criticisms of Levy. And it does not lend any weight to the childish Levy Out protests. Perhaps there are other good reasons to want him out but it’s not self-indulgent, incoherent anger.

@KaribYid et al - feel free to hit me with spams without engaging. That will really elevate your argument.

 

[LeParisien]

I think it fair to measure Levy by what he said would happen, to what did happen.
Like the stadium sponsor who would supposedly pay most the cost of building the thing. Normally announced in the early stages of a build, it still hasn't happened. Remember this was one of the reasons the club didn't just beef up some of the existing stands, like liverpool did.

How about the idea that stadium expenses would be totally isolated from our transfer budget?

How about this new way of doing things with the world class academy? Where are all these eager talents? It has produced just Harry Winks so far.

Then we have the continual sacking of managers. Some certainly didn't deserve it. And at peculiar times like in the middle of a game or a week before a final. Doesn't seem that the selection process is too thorough and the sackings seem more in rage at times.

This is before we consider him nearly throwing our premiership membership away with the superleague.

I've probably forgotten half of it, but there certainly is a case to answer.

You say it’s fair to compare what Levy said would happen to what has happened. I think that’s true if he expressed certainty about what he would do. Can you find me the quotes by Levy you find incriminating? Or does this only amount to Levy trying to find a stadium sponsor and not yet succeeding during a difficult time? Because that’s not the same as a broken promise.

Did Levy say anything about the separation of the two budgets? I thought that was Collecot.

The academy is world class. Chelsea and United might lay claim to more productive academies. Noone else can. Kane, Winks, and Townsend all got England caps in thé past décade. Mason, Skipp, Walker Peters, Tanganga and others have also played EPL standard football (or absolutely will). Many others at the margins. That’s a good result for an academy. Academies don’t produce the class of 91 every decade. Even La Masia and Ajax have their full periods.

I agree levy fucked up with Mourinho. Mind you, a majority of fans were behind the move(or at least willing to hold their nose for the success they thought would come) so some people are disingenuous with their criticism - hindsight is always 20/20.

You can sit there and moan but you ought to give more credit to someone who gets good results in an unusually challenging and competitive environment against clubs with far more resources. Your post is extremely uncharitable. Which is in vogue on this forum.

 

[buckley]

The Chelsea academy is not like your normal academy because they have over the years scooped up a lot of the best young talent worldwide by offering them the kind of money that other clubs could not compete with and we have all heard of the youngsters turning up for training in cars that youngsters at other clubs can only dream of . My son who works close by the Chelsea training ground has confirmed that this is true . Once again unlimited funding has given them almost carte Blanche regards young talent . There has been plenty of gripes from clubs who have nurtured young talent only to have Chelsea come along to poach them . As for United and young players their youth set up is stellar going back to the Busby days .

 

[LeParisien]

The Chelsea academy is not like your normal academy because they have over the years scooped up a lot of the best young talent worldwide by offering them the kind of money that other clubs could not compete with and we have all heard of the youngsters turning up for training in cars that youngsters at other clubs can only dream of . My son who works close by the Chelsea training ground has confirmed that this is true . Once again unlimited funding has given them almost carte Blanche regards young talent . There has been plenty of gripes from clubs who have nurtured young talent only to have Chelsea come along to poach them . As for United and young players their youth set up is stellar going back to the Busby days .

Yes - having worked for Spurs in U.K. in youth development I can confirm that Chelsea throw a lot of money at their academy. They also have outstanding coaching.

United are brilliant but their pool of available talent is high (dense urban environments of Manchester and greater Manchester even looking to places like Wigan and Bolton) with relatively few clubs compared to London. Clubs per talent ratio is lower there than the highly competitive London area. So they will always have an advantage in picking up talent.

 

[mkkid]

No, we literally don't. We have Ryan Mason, and it's more than insulting to suggest he's in no way deserving of a chance.

So far he's come across as bright and articulate. They have to start somewhere, and the snobbery is part of the issue that we have with managers.

Thats nice, he a nice guy that has no experience of managing a team but he played for Spurs and was bang average player.
Meanwhile his assistant has played nearly 700 games and has managed over 300 games.Why isn’t Powell manager.
Let be real, he was appointed as manager to appease the support.
Its like Tim cook ceo of apple being replaced by a deputy manager.

 

[LeParisien]

Thats nice, he a nice guy that has no experience of managing a team but he played for Spurs and was bang average player.
Meanwhile his assistant has played nearly 700 games and has managed over 300 games.Why isn’t Powell manager.
Let be real, he was appointed as manager to appease the support.
Its like Tim cook ceo of apple being replaced by a deputy manager.

Perhaps he’s very popular with the players which is what we need after Mourinhos divisive reign...

Or maybe the reasons are opaque to us the fans but the decision is supported by a clear rationale that those within the club are privy to. Maybe your confidence in your negative conclusions is misplaced given your limited knowledge.

 

[sausage]

Thats nice, he a nice guy that has no experience of managing a team but he played for Spurs and was bang average player.
Meanwhile his assistant has played nearly 700 games and has managed over 300 games.Why isn’t Powell manager.
Let be real, he was appointed as manager to appease the support.
Its like Tim cook ceo of apple being replaced by a deputy manager.

With all due respect to him, if Chris Powell was a good manager he wouldn't be in the position he's in. Many, many ex-managers have explained the huge difference between being an assistant and being a manager, and it's not for everyone. Experience != competence.

A lot of the squad might recognise that Ryan has been at the club a while now, even in a non-playing capacity, and has a really keen footballing/tactical mind. Players like Harry will have respect for him, as they grew up together pretty much.

You're not going to convince me that they'd have more respect for a guy that once won the second division with Charlton and has spent most of his managerial career at the bottom of the table

 

[sausage]

'Right'? What the flying monkey cock are you talking about? That's your takeaway? When did I say anything about Spurs fan entitlement and a 'right we have to be doing better than we have been’? Seriously. Where did I say this or imply it or even fart in its general direction?

I did say, however... we do have a right to feel frustrated.

Was explaining why emotions run high on this topic, in particular. As that's just the nature of being a fan. Especially at Spurs.

I have no agenda. Let me be clear about that. 'Cherry picking' this, or that, or whatever...! Since when did expressing to someone, why some fans may get emotional or annoyed or frustrated, by citing examples of what prompts that frustration... is considered as 'cherry picking to suit an agenda?'

Good grief, Charlie Brown.

To clarify, whichever way you want to steer around it, there's a implied entitlement in this:

"We are supposedly a big club. Yet... fucking Leeds and Blackburn and Leicester and Everton have won the league during that time. And the best we could do is finish 2nd... once."

Using 1980 as a reference to what others have and haven't done is silly. There's no rules or references in football that suggests that the longer you avoid relegation, the higher the chance (or, indeed, right) you have to win that competition. Take Heysel out of the picture and the entire footballing pyramid would no doubt have Everton and Spurs plausibly better off.

There are clubs who have won a lot more than we have (in terms of grandeur and quantity) who are far below us. In realistic terms, we are the 7th most 'decorated' team in the football league, and the 6th 'richest' in the premier league, so to be pissed off that we aren't winning leagues is certainly only going to fit the description of a 'right'.

So yes, people are frustrated, and all the fans want to win things, but for anyone to suggest that we should (paraphrasing or whatever, that is is the tone) be more successful than we are should really justify that. Why should we be finishing above the likes of Liverpool and United? They have significantly more titles than we have had. Why should we be finishing above City and Chelsea when they have shared the majority of titles this century so far?

The reality is that there was a short period in recent years when all the usual suspects went off the boil, and it was there for the taking. Leicester took their chance, we didn't. They deserved it, but far more people wanted them to do it than they did us, which would have helped.

As this is the ENIC thread, it is only really relevant to look at where we were under Sugar/Graham, and what's happened since. ENIC aren't in any way responsible for what happened prior, and the handicap that resulted in our ability to compete (or not, as it were).

 

[Drink!Drink!]

Said before will do so again, no fans don’t need to provide an executive head hunt short list of replacements before they are allowed to come to a view that Levy needs replacing.

being that THFC is a global company, thinking globally I’d say there are easily over a 100 people out there, maybe more , who could do his job, from football and other related industries especially if we appoint a proper DoF. Don’t agree with applying the “proper football man” test to who can do the job, and a bit weird to think Levy would pass any such test.

 

[mkkid]

I’ve frequently laid lines in the sand. Last feb with Poch I said I expected levy to invest significantly in the squad. He did.

I’ve also been critical of the Mourinho hire from day -1 and laid responsibility for that firmly with levy.

I’m willing to lay responsibility at his door and say what I expect going forward in a clear way. What I’m not going to do is blame him based on hindsight or unrealistic expectations.

Now you go - three chairmen you’d rather have anywhere in the world.

So I’ve been reasonable and tried to discuss our club and you spam things that aren’t spam and come up with that? Come on, don’t waste my time

leicester
man city
everton

 

[mkkid]

With all due respect to him, if Chris Powell was a good manager he wouldn't be in the position he's in. Many, many ex-managers have explained the huge difference between being an assistant and being a manager, and it's not for everyone. Experience != competence.

A lot of the squad might recognise that Ryan has been at the club a while now, even in a non-playing capacity, and has a really keen footballing/tactical mind. Players like Harry will have respect for him, as they grew up together pretty much.

You're not going to convince me that they'd have more respect for a guy that once won the second division with Charlton and has spent most of his managerial career at the bottom of the table

you are running a 1.5 billion company , do you appoint the deputy manager of a regional store.
I witnessed ,his tactical mind, 1st half against Southampton , while they played us off the park.
And on Sunday, no one could work out his line up or subs, iii assume the tactics was boot it long or play it back To the goalie.
These players have got rid of our last two managers by not playing.They respect no one and think they are better than they are!
Powell has more experience in every expect of the game.Why not appoint Ledley ?
This isn’t about race,
Mason was appointed because its good PR.

 

[Saoirse]

I've always been a fairly big defender of Levy and ENIC.

They transformed us from a midtable-outfit with history, a North London Nottingham Forest, into a club with the potential to compete at the top level. They've secured a brighter future for us and deserve a lot of credit for that.

However, it doesn't excuse what's happened since 2016. In all that time, the only signing you could truly say was a success was Victor Wanyama. Everyone else has been somewhere between okay and terrible, or of course non-existent for 18 months. The squad has been allowed to stagnate badly, he didn't have the confidence to bring in second-choice targets Poch wasn't sure about, and the signings with have made are consistently poor. We've abandoned our go-to of cheap, young, speculative talent for expensive failures like Janssen, experienced pros who lack the talent needed like Doherty and Sissoko, and overpriced prospects like Lo Celso and Ndombele. The plan has gone out of the window - it's short-term desperation every time. This has then necessitated contract renewals for players who aren't first choice, aren't good enough, have been here too long, and can't be moved on - the squad is an absolute mess.

We can now see the impact this is having off the field too. We aren't just a less attractive prospect than clubs like Liverpool and Chelsea we were at least on the same level as a few years ago. We're not remotely attractive even compared to clubs like Leicester, Leipzig and Ajax.

A big part of the reason for this is the total mismatch between expectations and reality. Such is the speed of our decline that fans still think we should be in the Top 4 and winning trophies - back to where we were just a couple of years ago. And they're not wrong - that's where a club like Tottenham belongs. But Levy's horrifically poor performance means that's not realistic in the short-term. Worse, I get the impression that he is re-enforcing this expectation. That means we're very unattractive to potential managers who know they need to perform a miracle to avoid getting sacked. It means we risk losing whoever we do get after a year when they come 5th or 6th, even though that would actually be a strong performance and they could prove a good choice in the end. And moreover, it means such a manager will be under pressure and deemed underperforming by both the fans and the squad, making their position untenable, when in reality they are not to blame.

Despite his earlier successes, it is Daniel Levy that is responsible for the decline in the squad. It is Daniel Levy that is responsible for sacking rather than backing our best manager since Keith Burkinshaw. It is Daniel Levy that is responsible for replacing him with yet another Chelsea reject, a dinosaur who has set us back immeasurably.

I do despite this have confidence that he could turn it around if faith and trust was placed in him. But in football as in life, respect, responsibility and accountability matter. That is no trust or faith left in him or in ENIC's stewardship of the club. And that's a road it's very hard to come back from. The only alternative to an endless blame-game between players, fans and management which only ends in tears is to acknowledge that the buck stops at the top. Levy needs to fall on his sword and resign so that everyone else at the club can regroup and start on that road back to where we belong.

 

[LeParisien]

leicester
man city
everton

Leicester - fair enough. They’re a really well run club as well.

Everton - what have you seen from Bill Kenwright since 2004 to suggest he’s a better chairman than levy ? Honest question. I’d say we were similar sized clubs when he took over and now we are a lot bigger and have had a lot more success.

Man City - wow. Ok well never agree that doing things that way is better than doing things our way. If what you want is a dirty oligarch to take over then I can understand your frustration with levy perfectly.

 

[shelfboy68]

Leicester - fair enough. They’re a really well run club as well.

Everton - what have you seen from Bill Kenwright since 2004 to suggest he’s a better chairman than levy ? Honest question. I’d say we were similar sized clubs when he took over and now we are a lot bigger and have had a lot more success.

Man City - wow. Ok well never agree that doing things that way is better than doing things our way. If what you want is a dirty oligarch to take over then I can understand your frustration with levy perfectly.

We have had a lot more success er where?