ENIC...

[Delboy75]

I really don’t think there’s a huge amount you can do about parts of that wall up from seven sisters, apart from flatten most of it which isn’t likely in foreseeable future. But I do think the immediate are of the stadium will be more or less ok once HRW is done. I think next meeting on that is June 10th.

 

[dovahkiin]

not sure where to post this..

Tottenham Hotspur is now solidly within top 10 clubs globally
Tottenham Hotspur FC (brand value up 21% to €873 million) achieved an all-time high in brand valuation and were ranking as the 8th most valuable brand globally, above fellow London clubs Chelsea FC (brand value up 11% to €855 million) and Arsenal FC (brand value up 18% to €793 million)

Football 50 2023 | The Annual Brand Value Ranking | Brandirectory

The annual report on the most valuable and strongest football brands

brandirectory.com

 

[JW72]

Tottenham high road is not a safe area when you walk down it from the station most of the phone boxes have people jacking up in them.
The stadium is the jewel in a crime ridden shit hole and I know because I came from there originally.

I bow to your local knowledge but as a regular visitor from outside Haringey IMHO it feels vastly less scary now than it once did. It's an area with a lot of problems of course, but the overwhelming sense of threat, dereliction and despair that I recall from the late 80s and 90s when I first started going to games seems to have been replaced to some degree by a sense that small businesses, community groups and even the local authority are at least giving it a go. Whether that's now because I'm a more frequent visitor I notice it more I don't know. THFC have absolutely played a part in this.

 

[HodisGawd]

I bow to your local knowledge but as a regular visitor from outside Haringey IMHO it feels vastly less scary now than it once did. It's an area with a lot of problems of course, but the overwhelming sense of threat, dereliction and despair that I recall from the late 80s and 90s when I first started going to games seems to have been replaced to some degree by a sense that small businesses, community groups and even the local authority are at least giving it a go. Whether that's now because I'm a more frequent visitor I notice it more I don't know. THFC have absolutely played a part in this.

Yeah, there's artisan bakeries aplenty now from Seven Sisters to the stadium. The area has changed a lot.

 

[sausage]

However, as we know, or strongly suspect, that ENIC have borrowed the funds for the new shares, if the interest rate for the borrowings is around the same rate as the rest of the re-funding, it will be about 3% pa, which comes to about £4.5 million pa which ENIC would have to pay. So don’t be surprised if the Club gives vast salary increases to those ENIC personnel on the Board, or more likely, the Club starts paying annual dividends to shareholders for the first time since the Sugar years.

ENIC is owned by Tavistock, and only otherwise the Levy family in Trust. There's absolutely no logic in suggesting that they would resent interest so much that they would, in turn, over-compensate "ENIC personnel on the Board". That makes it sound like you otherwise believe that they would then - for some odd turn - gift it to ENIC. There's no advantage to be gained.

The reality is that the other 15% of shareholders have not invested any capital into the club (probably ever), so the only way that ENIC could invest capital is via the convertible shares. This effectively increases their stake 1.9% to 87.5%. That therefore means that the 15%'s shares are now worth a little less, so they have effectively also contributed to the £150m (or will, once the A Shares have been converted).

ENIC are very unlikely to have liquid assets to otherwise invest - as you've pointed out, they haven't taken money out of the club, especially in dividends, ever. They are a holding company by virtue of that fact, and not really a 'business' that would be able to invest.

So why doesn't Joe chuck the cash in? Well, he's obviously a bit demented about money, and by taking out the loan in the name of ENIC, the Levy family actually also 'inherit' 29.4% of that £150m debt, technically (~£44.1m of it). The essential gamble here is that the additional funds will be enough to keep the club in the CL, or better, which may well have a significant knock-on effect to the value of the club. Rather like spending £50 on a valet in the hope that you can sell the car for £500 more.

 

[BoringOldFan]

My interpretation of the events surrounding the £150 million funds injection, for what it’s worth, is as follows:

As had been pointed out elsewhere, Alasdair Gold has claimed in his latest podcast that he has heard that, unsurprisingly, ENIC have not provided funds out of their internally generated wealth, but have borrowed in order to provide themselves with the wherewithal to buy new share capital from Tottenham Hotspur Ltd. This should not be surprising. They are highly astute businessmen, not kindly uncles giving out presents. The idea that they would “put their hands in their pockets” to provide this was always in my view wishful thinking as was the idea that it would become a regular occurrence. Their strategy has always been for the new stadium to be a wealth generating engine to take the football side to the next level.

However, as we all know the Club, and more to the point, ENIC have had to deal over the last few years with a once in a lifetime disaster: the Government’s reaction to Covid. This could not have come at a worse time, as the wealth creation capabilities of the new stadium were more than decimated; they were to all intents and purposes completely stopped between 2020 and 2021. This meant that the stadium generating large amounts of income to take the club to the next level just did not happen. Instead, large extra losses were incurred, which took the club to the brink of disaster. This time last year Tottenham had just incurred a £150 million loss with no certainty as to the stadium being completely full for the foreseeable future and little chance of using it for non-football income generation. This was confirmed in stark fashion by Daniel Levy in his end of season review and was already quite well known, which led, as most will remember, to the vultures circling thinking that Harry Kane would have to be sold for a knock-down price to keep the club in business.

Then the clouds began to lift. Covid restrictions were rapidly lifted last summer. This meant that ENIC were able to masterfully re-negotiate debt funding at low interest rates with long term repayment options to replace the short-term emergency funding they had been given from the Government and elsewhere. It is my suspicion that funding for the £150 million new share capital just announced was part of the negotiations last summer and was contingent on the economic outlook getting back to some sort of normality over the following year. I know that the original funding re-negotiating was for the Club rather than ENIC, but I suspect that it was argued that if the extra £150 million was to be provided to ENIC at some time in a year or so, contingent on it being used for new shares in the club owned by ENIC, and that ENIC’s new shares in the club would have a charge on them to reduce the lenders’ risk, then this would have provided more stability for all the funding and help to get the club back to where it should have been if the Covid disaster had not occurred. If Covid had not happened, the club would not have had £150 million losses, they would have had around £150 million profits, and none of this extra funding would have been necessary.

All this, in my mind, would help to explain why Antonio Conte seemed likely to join the club last summer and the talks suddenly failed. My suspicion is that Conte thought either that the extra funds would be available immediately or that he could force the issue to get them early. So, when he found out that this would not be the case he decided to wait until it was, or another opportunity arose. When he was finally appointed, there was only one mid-season transfer window to negotiate before the funds would be available.

It would also explain why ITK’s such as Trix were so confident at least six months ago that £150 million would be available this summer: They had heard from their sources that the money would definitely be available, though possibly not how.

We now have the club in a financial position which is similar to what it would have been at this stage if the Covid regulations had not been imposed. Once in-a-lifetime problems have been solved by once-in-a-lifetime actions.

However, as we know, or strongly suspect, that ENIC have borrowed the funds for the new shares, if the interest rate for the borrowings is around the same rate as the rest of the re-funding, it will be about 3% pa, which comes to about £4.5 million pa which ENIC would have to pay. So don’t be surprised if the Club gives vast salary increases to those ENIC personnel on the Board, or more likely, the Club starts paying annual dividends to shareholders for the first time since the Sugar years.

Now I may have got my facts wrong, or my logic may be awry. If that is the case, I don’t doubt I will be informed!

Hi arthur. Thanks for the invitation to correct your facts - I will ?
I would say that most of your ‘logic’ is - as you admit - based on suspicions and ideas which we have no way you knowing if that is the case.

However, as for the facts. You say that THFC made a loss in the year ending 30 June 2021. This is simply not true. The accounts are online and show that in fact before player trading and amortisation, there was a profit of £97.1 million. Even after the additional costs, there was a loss of around £43 million, so much less than the £150m you suggest.

Regarding the loan. £250 million was secured to pay off the £175m Covid loan, as announced by the club on 18 June last year. However, Conte had already turned down Levy by that time, so it is unlikely imo that the use of the £75m additional funds were an issue as they had not yet been secured. Espírito Santo joined 12 days after the funding was announced.

I do share your concern about how this new ENIC loan will be financed, as while the debt may remain with them, I am unclear about any source of ENIC revenue other than THFC to pay the interest. We may have to wait for the next set of accounts to find out more about that.

There is another reason I am concerned about this loan because of what I found out about a previous loan from 2009 which horrified me. But that’s for another post!

 

[Marvinspur]

ENIC is owned by Tavistock, and only otherwise the Levy family in Trust. There's absolutely no logic in suggesting that they would resent interest so much that they would, in turn, over-compensate "ENIC personnel on the Board". That makes it sound like you otherwise believe that they would then - for some odd turn - gift it to ENIC. There's no advantage to be gained.

The reality is that the other 15% of shareholders have not invested any capital into the club (probably ever), so the only way that ENIC could invest capital is via the convertible shares. This effectively increases their stake 1.9% to 87.5%. That therefore means that the 15%'s shares are now worth a little less, so they have effectively also contributed to the £150m (or will, once the A Shares have been converted).

ENIC are very unlikely to have liquid assets to otherwise invest - as you've pointed out, they haven't taken money out of the club, especially in dividends, ever. They are a holding company by virtue of that fact, and not really a 'business' that would be able to invest.

So why doesn't Joe chuck the cash in? Well, he's obviously a bit demented about money, and by taking out the loan in the name of ENIC, the Levy family actually also 'inherit' 29.4% of that £150m debt, technically (~£44.1m of it). The essential gamble here is that the additional funds will be enough to keep the club in the CL, or better, which may well have a significant knock-on effect to the value of the club. Rather like spending £50 on a valet in the hope that you can sell the car for £500 more.

Yeah I think they have simply realized that the value of Tottenham as a Champions League Club is much higher then the 150mil they have to spend to try and keep them there. We scrapped into the CL this year. 3 seasons without CL football and we risk the CL football being the blip.

 

[spursfan77]

Worth posting these results from Man Utd to show how much extra cash they got from match day revenue compared to last year (last years accounts) and we are expected to have similar match day income, possibly slightly more. It really will be a huge influx of cash for us compared to 12 months ago. Potentially £100m more.

 

[Tiberius Gracchus]

Hi arthur. Thanks for the invitation to correct your facts - I will ?
I would say that most of your ‘logic’ is - as you admit - based on suspicions and ideas which we have no way you knowing if that is the case.

However, as for the facts. You say that THFC made a loss in the year ending 30 June 2021. This is simply not true. The accounts are online and show that in fact before player trading and amortisation, there was a profit of £97.1 million. Even after the additional costs, there was a loss of around £43 million, so much less than the £150m you suggest.

Regarding the loan. £250 million was secured to pay off the £175m Covid loan, as announced by the club on 18 June last year. However, Conte had already turned down Levy by that time, so it is unlikely imo that the use of the £75m additional funds were an issue as they had not yet been secured. Espírito Santo joined 12 days after the funding was announced.

I do share your concern about how this new ENIC loan will be financed, as while the debt may remain with them, I am unclear about any source of ENIC revenue other than THFC to pay the interest. We may have to wait for the next set of accounts to find out more about that.

There is another reason I am concerned about this loan because of what I found out about a previous loan from 2009 which horrified me. But that’s for another post!

Intrigued about this ENIC loan from 2009 that you mention?

 

[sausage]

Intrigued about this ENIC loan from 2009 that you mention?

Likely just this, which is old news, whereby the loan is secured against shares (but what else would it be secure against, as ENIC own the club?)

Enic used Tottenham Hotspur shares as security on Kaupthing loan

From The Telegraph Enic used Tottenham Hotspur shares as security on Kaupthing loan The leaked loan book of Kaupthing bank claims that Joe Lewis, the billionaire investor, and Daniel Levy, the chairman of Tottenham Hotspur, pledged part of their majority stake in the football club as...

www.spurscommunity.co.uk

 

[arthurgrimsdell]

Hi arthur. Thanks for the invitation to correct your facts - I will ?
I would say that most of your ‘logic’ is - as you admit - based on suspicions and ideas which we have no way you knowing if that is the case.

However, as for the facts. You say that THFC made a loss in the year ending 30 June 2021. This is simply not true. The accounts are online and show that in fact before player trading and amortisation, there was a profit of £97.1 million. Even after the additional costs, there was a loss of around £43 million, so much less than the £150m you suggest.

Regarding the loan. £250 million was secured to pay off the £175m Covid loan, as announced by the club on 18 June last year. However, Conte had already turned down Levy by that time, so it is unlikely imo that the use of the £75m additional funds were an issue as they had not yet been secured. Espírito Santo joined 12 days after the funding was announced.

I do share your concern about how this new ENIC loan will be financed, as while the debt may remain with them, I am unclear about any source of ENIC revenue other than THFC to pay the interest. We may have to wait for the next set of accounts to find out more about that.

There is another reason I am concerned about this loan because of what I found out about a previous loan from 2009 which horrified me. But that’s for another post!

Thanks for your comments.
I accept that, as I stated, my interpretation is based on suspicions as well as facts.
Your assertion of my mis-stated £150 million loss I also accept. I should have checked. The carried forward loss for the year after taxation was £83 million, substantially less than the figure I gave, but I'd suggest that it does not contradict the main point that Covid completely changed the financial landscape for the club in 2020 and 2021. Indeed the carried forward losses for 2020 and 2021 together add up to around £150 million.
I think that the refunding had not been announced by the time Conte and Spurs parted ways is not relevant. Negotiations for the refunding would surely have gone on for a considerable time before the public announcement of the refunding, and would have been regarded as a key potential selling point for getting Conte in. I did not suggest that the £75 million was set to be used for persuading Conte to join. I was under the impression (I think from Alasdair Gold, though I and/or he could have been wrong) that the £75 million was used to refinance short term club loans in addition to the Government £150 million 2 year loan. The point of my post was my suspicion that the £150 million just announced would have been negotiated at the same time as the £250 million. ENIC certainly had to get it from somewhere, and I would have thought that they would have been aware of the possibility, all being well, of being in a position now in 2022 to invest in the team, and would have been astute enough to negotiate it all as a complete package. I don't think they just live in the moment.
I can't prove it but I suspect it.
I am intrigued about your concerns about a previous loan in 2009!

 

[arthurgrimsdell]

ENIC is owned by Tavistock, and only otherwise the Levy family in Trust. There's absolutely no logic in suggesting that they would resent interest so much that they would, in turn, over-compensate "ENIC personnel on the Board". That makes it sound like you otherwise believe that they would then - for some odd turn - gift it to ENIC. There's no advantage to be gained.

The reality is that the other 15% of shareholders have not invested any capital into the club (probably ever), so the only way that ENIC could invest capital is via the convertible shares. This effectively increases their stake 1.9% to 87.5%. That therefore means that the 15%'s shares are now worth a little less, so they have effectively also contributed to the £150m (or will, once the A Shares have been converted).

ENIC are very unlikely to have liquid assets to otherwise invest - as you've pointed out, they haven't taken money out of the club, especially in dividends, ever. They are a holding company by virtue of that fact, and not really a 'business' that would be able to invest.

So why doesn't Joe chuck the cash in? Well, he's obviously a bit demented about money, and by taking out the loan in the name of ENIC, the Levy family actually also 'inherit' 29.4% of that £150m debt, technically (~£44.1m of it). The essential gamble here is that the additional funds will be enough to keep the club in the CL, or better, which may well have a significant knock-on effect to the value of the club. Rather like spending £50 on a valet in the hope that you can sell the car for £500 more.

Thanks for your comments.
With regard to Tavistock, you may or may not remember some recent posts I made pointing out the Tavistock has no legal interest In ENIC. The final owners stated in the Tottenham Hotspur Ltd. Annual Accounts are Joe Lewis as an individual and various family trusts for Daniel Levy's family. This has been the case since they took over the club. References to Tavistock merely muddy the waters unnecessarily. But that is merely a side issue.
I have not suggested that the owners of ENIC would resent paying interest. My understanding is that ENIC for the last decade or so has been a single business investor, in Tottenham Hotspur Ltd., whereas before they had interests in other clubs as well , Rangers, Slavia Prague , AEK Athens, FC Basel and Vincenza Calcio, plus a software platform called Autonomy, but that they had divested themselves of all these to concentrate on Tottenham. Therefore the only income they would currently have would be the salaries and bonuses of ENIC personnel on the Tottenham Board including Daniel Levy, which appear to be paid to ENIC, presumably to save UK tax. I had assumed that these would have been divi'ed out to the people concerned on a regular basis. This would if true mean that ENIC would have no income to pay the interest, but the company might still have retained any profits from the sale of these other businesses, so my concern about how they could pay the interest might be unnecessary.
That said, I don't know Daniel Levy's financial situation. Perhaps his current salary and bonus would suffice to pay his element of the interest if necessary and Joe Lewis would then have to put his share in. It seems to me it would be far simpler if the money went in and straight out again. I accept the implication of your comment that that money starting to come in to ENIC from dividends would be far simpler than the rigmarole of redistributing Daniel Levy's salary, because if no funds are otherwise available the latter still leaves Joe Lewis's share to be dealt with.
You state that that ENIC is not really a business, because it can't invest, which is not true, as shown by the new £150 million investment, whether or not it is funded by borrowing.
I agree that the current capital increase does not involve the 15% or so of other shareholders. Incidentally, I can confirm that there have in the past between rights issues. I am a shareholder. I started off in 1982/3 (I can't remember exactly!) with 100 shares from the Scholar flotation. After a number of rights issues and bonus issues I now have the massive holding of 1,980 shares (whip wheel!), which at £2-3 billion total share value I will make a tidy profit!
You state that the small shareholders will effectively be contributing to the £150 million. This is not true. In reality at the very least they(we) would not be affected, because the slightly smaller percentage would be of a bigger pot, to the tune of £150 million. Further, anyone who bought shares from the club would, like me, have paid around £1 per share, so the business acumen of Scholar and Bobroff (don't laugh), Sugar (a bit) and ENIC (Daniel Levy) would have been very much to our benefit.
You are right that ENIC shareholders in their appropriate proportions are responsible for the debt. The Levy family trusts would indeed have to take the £44 million odd from their at least a billion or so inheritance from Tottenham. Poor things!

 

[Delboy75]

Seeing Valencia yid do that list and having elite team as next and then trophies. It obviously looks like a natural perfect progression how to monetise a football club even more. I still believe what we are seeing is basically the next stage in increasing the investment by success on the pitch which obviously grows the brand, rather than levy/Lewis doing it on some romantic whim. But if levy pulls it off and really puts us at the top table of European football he would have pretty much created the perfect sustainable template for a football club.
City- Although they’ve built a good infrastructure it’s not as good as ours and have cheated anyway.
Liverpool- Really it’s built on a brilliant manager and great scouting is that sustainable
Chelsea- Total cheats
United- was literally a genius manager
Arsenal- What they had was a very good manager

If and it’s still a big “IF” levy pulls it off. He’s built the infrastructure then the revenue. If he converts that to sustainable high end success no other club has done that without cheating.

 

[nailsy]

This might be cynical, but it also makes sense to do this if they wern't 100% sure Conte would stay. Now they have shown some ambition, and if the unlikely scenario in Conte leaving would happen, they have communicated to the public and the fans that they were willing to back him. Not a bad move.

It also would've surprise me if they view it as a way of trying to persuade Kane to sign a new contract. He's a £100m+ player that we could lose on a free. If this investment makes him commit to the club then you're getting him and all the players we buy for the £150m they're putting in.

 

[BoringOldFan]

Likely just this, which is old news, whereby the loan is secured against shares (but what else would it be secure against, as ENIC own the club?)

Enic used Tottenham Hotspur shares as security on Kaupthing loan

From The Telegraph Enic used Tottenham Hotspur shares as security on Kaupthing loan The leaked loan book of Kaupthing bank claims that Joe Lewis, the billionaire investor, and Daniel Levy, the chairman of Tottenham Hotspur, pledged part of their majority stake in the football club as...

www.spurscommunity.co.uk

Yes that’s what I was referring to, sausage. There may be nothing illegal about it, but it doesn’t sit well with me that shares in THFC are being hocked to get a loan from a dodgy Icelandic bank that disintegrated in the 2008 financial crash.

It also makes me wonder how ENIC will pay the interest, if their main source of income is THFC?

 

[SpartanSpur]

Seeing Valencia yid do that list and having elite team as next and then trophies. It obviously looks like a natural perfect progression how to monetise a football club even more. I still believe what we are seeing is basically the next stage in increasing the investment by success on the pitch which obviously grows the brand, rather than levy/Lewis doing it on some romantic whim. But if levy pulls it off and really puts us at the top table of European football he would have pretty much created the perfect sustainable template for a football club.
City- Although they’ve built a good infrastructure it’s not as good as ours and have cheated anyway.
Liverpool- Really it’s built on a brilliant manager and great scouting is that sustainable
Chelsea- Total cheats
United- was literally a genius manager
Arsenal- What they had was a very good manager

If and it’s still a big “IF” levy pulls it off. He’s built the infrastructure then the revenue. If he converts that to sustainable high end success no other club has done that without cheating.

To be honest all I want from ENIC is to bring success to the club in a sustainable way. I'd happily see more investment like this £150m in future from them regardless of what their intentions are, be it romantic or in self interest. I'd be thankful either way.

 

[Marauder]

Have we signed anyone yet? Next season starts earlier than normal, chop chop.

 

[arthurgrimsdell]

Yes that’s what I was referring to, sausage. There may be nothing illegal about it, but it doesn’t sit well with me that shares in THFC are being hocked to get a loan from a dodgy Icelandic bank that disintegrated in the 2008 financial crash.

It also makes me wonder how ENIC will pay the interest, if their main source of income is THFC?

I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Kaupthing had already loaned the money to ENIC when they hit problems. ENIC would have had to default on their loan for ENIC to have had a problem. If they had done, the shares concerned would initially have gone to Kaupthing and then probably been sold when they needed to pay their debts. Remember Tottenham Hotspur Plc was a publicly quoted company at the time.
If any of us had a mortgage on their home with a bank which later got into financial difficulties, as long as the loan documentation was not faulty, it would not make any difference if the lender later got into difficulties, because the asset would merely be passed on to a creditor.
I agree with you on wondering how ENIC will pay the interest on their new £150 million shares. I raised the matter on this thread soon after the share issue was announced.

 

[spids]

I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Kaupthing had already loaned the money to ENIC when they hit problems. ENIC would have had to default on their loan for ENIC to have had a problem. If they had done, the shares concerned would initially have gone to Kaupthing and then probably been sold when they needed to pay their debts. Remember Tottenham Hotspur Plc was a publicly quoted company at the time.
If any of us had a mortgage on their home with a bank which later got into financial difficulties, as long as the loan documentation was not faulty, it would not make any difference if the lender later got into difficulties, because the asset would merely be passed on to a creditor.
I agree with you on wondering how ENIC will pay the interest on their new £150 million shares. I raised the matter on this thread soon after the share issue was announced.

Sorry - being stupid probably, but what interest on their new shares? I thought they effectively ‘bought’ new shares that the club issued. Effectively they are betting on the club going up in value and their shares will be worth more than the £150m they paid for them when they sell.

 

[arthurgrimsdell]

Sorry - being stupid probably, but what interest on their new shares? I thought they effectively ‘bought’ new shares that the club issued. Effectively they are betting on the club going up in value and their shares will be worth more than the £150m they paid for them when they sell.

My mistake. I should have stated "interest on the funding for their new shares". There have been suggestions that ENIC borrowed in order to fund the purchase of new shares since ENIC appears to now be a one investment business: investment in Tottenham Hotspur Plc. ENIC has never received dividends from Tottenham Hotspur Ltd (or Tottenham Hotspur PLC), so other things being equal they will have no funds of their own to fund the £150 million share purchase, so they need to borrow from somewhere. They may have borrowed from Joe Lewis and Daniel Levy as individuals, but it appears that the two individuals concerned have not "put their hands in their pockets". Therefore it seems that interest would accrue on the borrowing from some third party or another.