ENIC...

[dontcallme]

A couple of problems with this position: First, Levy is ENIC. He may only control 30%, but he has been ENIC's voice in the running of the club. Second, I don't think ENIC have been good for Spurs. ENIC have been good for ENIC.

By this I mean - a football club measures successes and failures on the pitch, while a company measures success and failures in the financial statements.

To be sure, Spurs have been an ancillary beneficiary of ENIC's success, but ENIC are not judging their investment by the number of trophies, or success on the pitch. When ENIC invest in the stadium, surrounding real estate, and training ground - they are creating tax-deferred wealth. That is the primary purpose behind those investments. (see the article @Archibald&Crooks posted above about the investment nature of ENIC interest in football).

ENIC/Levy have taken an initial investment of ~£22M, and turned it into something worth in the neighborhood of £2B - with very little additional investment, and have avoided most of the taxes on that gain by not taking dividends, and re-investing that into various projects.

So, when people say Levy has been good for Spurs - it's really a function of Levy has been good for Levy, and that has a minor knock on effect for Spurs. But, Levy does not seem to be incentivized to win on the pitch, rather he is incentivized to grow the investment - thus the 7-figure bonus for delivering the stadium, even late and over-budget.


As long as we have an owner who has no interest in success on the pitch, the priorities will always be off the pitch success. Good for the owners, less good for the supporters.

I remember the Sky Four and how far we were behind them.

We lost out on numerous players as they’d rather sit in Arsenal’s bench than play for us.

ENIC have increased our income that we can now compete financially with Arsenal. This is no small achievement.

There was a time that regular CL participation looked an impossibility. It has now happened.

I understand that fans are disappointed with the trophy haul but I don’t understand the lack of acknowledgment that our league finishes have been very good and hugely improved.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

Trying to play catch up to Arsenal, who were behind us then and stayed behind us until this season?

Arsenal are a project team with Arteta, they have spent more than us but have been building with a combination of young players and good signings over several years. Projects take time to mature and now it’s maturing.

 

[Sophos151]

Arsenal are a project team with Arteta, they have spent more than us but have been building with a combination of young players and good signings over several years. Projects take time to mature and now it’s maturing.

I agree. We should do similar. But we haven’t fallen behind them because of a lack of investment or money.

 

[thelak]

I remember the Sky Four and how far we were behind them.

We lost out on numerous players as they’d rather sit in Arsenal’s bench than play for us.

ENIC have increased our income that we can now compete financially with Arsenal. This is no small achievement.

There was a time that regular CL participation looked an impossibility. It has now happened.

I understand that fans are disappointed with the trophy haul but I don’t understand the lack of acknowledgment that our league finishes have been very good and hugely improved.

Don’t think that’s really true

people acknowledge the improvement

but also recognise the stagnation over the last few years, multiple poor on pitch decisions, chopping and changing over the type of manager and general lack of ambition to take the next step

whilst charging premium top of the range prices which is a crucial factor to acknowledge

 

[McFlash]

A couple of problems with this position: First, Levy is ENIC. He may only control 30%, but he has been ENIC's voice in the running of the club. Second, I don't think ENIC have been good for Spurs. ENIC have been good for ENIC.

By this I mean - a football club measures successes and failures on the pitch, while a company measures success and failures in the financial statements.

To be sure, Spurs have been an ancillary beneficiary of ENIC's success, but ENIC are not judging their investment by the number of trophies, or success on the pitch. When ENIC invest in the stadium, surrounding real estate, and training ground - they are creating tax-deferred wealth. That is the primary purpose behind those investments. (see the article @Archibald&Crooks posted above about the investment nature of ENIC interest in football).

ENIC/Levy have taken an initial investment of ~£22M, and turned it into something worth in the neighborhood of £2B - with very little additional investment, and have avoided most of the taxes on that gain by not taking dividends, and re-investing that into various projects.

So, when people say Levy has been good for Spurs - it's really a function of Levy has been good for Levy, and that has a minor knock on effect for Spurs. But, Levy does not seem to be incentivized to win on the pitch, rather he is incentivized to grow the investment - thus the 7-figure bonus for delivering the stadium, even late and over-budget.


As long as we have an owner who has no interest in success on the pitch, the priorities will always be off the pitch success. Good for the owners, less good for the supporters.

I do understand that but apart from an oil state or suchlike, all owners are the same. Nobody wants to give money away.

For me, our problems are now sat in the boardroom, non football people who can't help but meddle in the football affairs.
When we've got a top quality manager and DoF, yet the chairman and board members still want a say in who we buy and sell, it's never going to work.

We need a chairman who'll trust people to do the jobs they've been employed to do.

Yes ENIC will want to see a return on their investment, I've no issue with that but it's the finicky, meddling nature of our chairman that's the biggest problem.

Give them a budget and let the football people deal with the football matters.
Maybe VL won't be any better but we need a change and we're more likely to see a change in the structure, than a change of ownership.

 

[dontcallme]

Don’t think that’s really true

people acknowledge the improvement

but also recognise the stagnation over the last few years, multiple poor on pitch decisions, chopping and changing over the type of manager and general lack of ambition to take the next step

whilst charging premium top of the range prices which is a crucial factor to acknowledge

Plenty of posts here clearly think ENIC have been all bad. Only talking the trophies and never the league finishes or CL participation.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

I do understand that but apart from an oil state or suchlike, all owners are the same. Nobody wants to give money away.

For me, our problems are now sat in the boardroom, non football people who can't help but meddle in the football affairs.
When we've got a top quality manager and DoF, yet the chairman and board members still want a say in who we buy and sell, it's never going to work.

We need a chairman who'll trust people to do the jobs they've been employed to do.

Yes ENIC will want to see a return on their investment, I've no issue with that but it's the finicky, meddling nature of our chairman that's the biggest problem.

Give them a budget and let the football people deal with the football matters.
Maybe VL won't be any better but we need a change and we're more likely to see a change in the structure, than a change of ownership.

True. They aren’t qualified, Levy wasn’t a footballer, manager or coach, he is no more suited to building a winning team than people on this forum. When you have experts like Paratici and Conte you back them and let them get on with it.

I get there are financial perimeters and contract setups that the board/Levy need to set but the football vision shouldn’t come from the chairman it needs to come from the person qualified the DoF, that is their job. Other big clubs all have this model, Edu at Arsenal, Txiki at City, it looks very West Ham to have the chairman deciding the players and interfering. Obviously we don’t know how much Levy is getting involved, we are just speculating based on some ITK but the football vision and running should be driven by the DoF.

 

[thelak]

Plenty of posts here clearly think ENIC have been all bad. Only talking the trophies and never the league finishes or CL participation.

There going to be a broad spectrum of opinions. I think the majority appreciate there have been positives but also major shortcomings too

certainly the fans I know, go to games with etc

 

[YB123]

Plenty of posts here clearly think ENIC have been all bad. Only talking the trophies and never the league finishes or CL participation.

In footballing terms - The league finishes and CL participation are progress that have to eventually lead to glory. Pretty much no glory during their tenure. If top 4 is glory for some, then those are part of the problem.

 

[dontcallme]

There going to be a broad spectrum of opinions. I think the majority appreciate there have been positives but also major shortcomings too

certainly the fans I know, go to games with etc

I haven't said various views aren't allowed. There are plenty of posts that seem to suggest it's been all bad under ENIC. I don't recall any recent posts saying we have simply stagnated.

 

[YB123]

I haven't said various views aren't allowed. There are plenty of posts that seem to suggest it's been all bad under ENIC. I don't recall any recent posts saying we have simply stagnated.

Interestingly in the last 10/15 years of European football, since our last trophy aswell... Has their been a club in the top leagues in Europes that have continuously played UCL and Europa and not won anything?

 

[Metalhead]

Plenty of posts here clearly think ENIC have been all bad. Only talking the trophies and never the league finishes or CL participation.

The league finishes and CL qualifications are great as part of an overall pathway to the ultimate goal of trophies. If ENIC are backing Conte - their chosen man - towards this then all well and good.

 

[dontcallme]

Interestingly in the last 10/15 years of European football, since our last trophy aswell... Has their been a club in the top leagues in Europes that have continuously played UCL and Europa and not won anything?

I don't know. As I've already acknowledged our lack of trophies is disappointing, I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[rossdapep]

I do believe that irrespective of how much we spend, there will always be 3-4 teams who will spend more, maintaining that competitive gap and picking up the silverware on offer.

It will take a investment of gigantean proportions to move us to the top of the food chain. It may happen., but not n Levy's watch.

But it can do if the owner is driven toward that.

Instead we have owners who prioritise many other things. Success is something they'd like but not at the expense of other things.

Look at FSG, when an opportunity presented itself, they fully supported Klopp because they wanted success. They were obsessed with getting it.

They haven't been able to go crazy but they've still done everything they can to compete with City.

If Arsenal were to win the league, the same would apply.

This isn't the Bundesliga, City can't win the title every year.

The club brought in Conte, the best chance of silverware would be to then be totally committed to that and do what it takes to get success.

But they try to do everything in their own way.

I fully believe we'd have won a title or a few cups had the owners had that mindset.

 

[YB123]

I don't know. As I've already acknowledged our lack of trophies is disappointing, I'm not sure what your point is.

well you do know lol. Because you said "nobody ever talks about the league finishes and CL participation". Hinting that you disagree about ENIC failing.

Point being thats good progress but can that really be deemed as glory/success over 23/23 year tenure?

 

[dontcallme]

well you do know lol. Because you said "nobody ever talks about the league finishes and CL participation". Hinting that you disagree about ENIC failing.

Point being thats good progress but can that really be deemed as glory/success over 23/23 year tenure?

I'm guessing you're someone who thinks people do a great job or a shit job with nothing inbetween.

I've said ENIC have improved our finances to a level where we can compete with some in the top four and as a result have had good league finishes.

But they have also failed to deliver trophies.

So I acknowledged their failings, hence I fail to see how your responses are really relevant to my posts.

 

[yido4life]

ENIC get a lot of credit on here for turning us into what we are now, from the poor team they took over, and rightly so!
But let’s not forget we had only been in obscurity for 10 years or so. Poor management of the club by Irving Scholar and then Alan Sugar lead us down that path but let’s not forget, that we were synonymous with winning trophies up until the mid 90s, and only then did that association start to die.
Prior to this we had been a successful trophy winning club since the 50s and even before.
ENIC deserve credit but no disrespect, it wasn’t Luton Town they were trying to turnaround, it was a club that 10 years before were regularly talked about as one of the big 5 in the country.
We don’t need to constantly talk ourselves down, our club belongs with the elite names of English football, not quite as successful as some, but nevertheless, some huge historic achievements

 

[For the love of Spurs]

ENIC get a lot of credit on here for turning us into what we are now, from the poor team they took over, and rightly so!
But let’s not forget we had only been in obscurity for 10 years or so. Poor management of the club by Irving Scholar and then Alan Sugar lead us down that path but let’s not forget, that we were synonymous with winning trophies up until the mid 90s, and only then did that association start to die.
Prior to this we had been a successful trophy winning club since the 50s and even before.
ENIC deserve credit but no disrespect, it wasn’t Luton Town they were trying to turnaround, it was a club that 10 years before were regularly talked about as one of the big 5 in the country.
We don’t need to constantly talk ourselves down, our club belongs with the elite names of English football, not quite as successful as some, but nevertheless, some huge historic achievements

Yes true, overall I give ENIC a 7/10. They stabilised the club, built amazing facilities and got consistent good league positions with Poch’s help. They also won very little, I believe the worst run in our history and never backed the manager when they where on top when we could have won things. Could do better but could also do worse.

The 1950’s to 1980’s of us as an elite are however the past, equally the 90’s of the Sugar period are the past. ENIC for me now need to be judged very much on the present, they have been the incumbent for decades. They are now treading on new territory, the facilities and finance is done, they will be judged on ambition on the pitch.

 

[sundanceyid10]

well you do know lol. Because you said "nobody ever talks about the league finishes and CL participation". Hinting that you disagree about ENIC failing.

Point being thats good progress but can that really be deemed as glory/success over 23/23 year tenure?

Exactly football is a sport and success is trophies. The rest is progress.

 

[mill]

ENIC get a lot of credit on here for turning us into what we are now, from the poor team they took over, and rightly so!
But let’s not forget we had only been in obscurity for 10 years or so. Poor management of the club by Irving Scholar and then Alan Sugar lead us down that path but let’s not forget, that we were synonymous with winning trophies up until the mid 90s, and only then did that association start to die.
Prior to this we had been a successful trophy winning club since the 50s and even before.
ENIC deserve credit but no disrespect, it wasn’t Luton Town they were trying to turnaround, it was a club that 10 years before were regularly talked about as one of the big 5 in the country.
We don’t need to constantly talk ourselves down, our club belongs with the elite names of English football, not quite as successful as some, but nevertheless, some huge historic achievements

Iiirc only us and utd had won a trophy in each decade from the 50’s to the 90’s