European Super League Mega Thread

[C0YS]

Would you be supportive of a CL where only the winners of their domestic leagues could qualify.


But any team can still win the PL. As far as the PL goes what's changed? Only that some of the teams who usually play in UEFA competitions won't enter them any more. The PL will still be popular for all the same reasons it is now.

As it stands, the SL isn't a replacement for the CL. It's a completely different tournament which isn't tied to the domestic leagues at all. A group of teams have said they'd rather play each other than enter the CL or play under UEFA. If there was relegation, where would they be relegated to? If there was promotion, where would they get promoted from? If there was qualification, how would they qualify? I know it's uncharted territory for football in Europe, but it obviously happens in America and to be honest, they all seem pretty happy with the way their sports work. I'm not sure it's the disaster people are making it out to be.

Sure, the CL will have some problems being as attractive as it once was, but UEFA has failed to protect its interests and has to have a hard look at itself as to how they let this happen.

There will be winners and losers in any type of reform, and whilst I feel for clubs like Everton and Leicester, who appear to have missed out, I also believe that had they had the chance to join they would have jumped at it, and therefore their complaints are somewhat hypocritical.

OK I could go into why the SL will undermine the PL (18 extra games, heavily rotated teams, no chance for most of the league to play in what will become the premier competition in the sport, further unfair financial advantages to people completely devoid of sporting merit, Inevitable restructuring of the league or domestic cups because there are simply too many games, a lack of enthusiasm from fans for a league that involves a closed-off competition without the ability for teams to aspire to, the fact that football does not have a limitless pot of gold and this will almost certainly affect the value given to the PL financially) but I'm not going to.

I also wish to mention while the SL is a different competition to the CL it is defacto there to replace it as the premier European competition. I also think UEFA's problem is that they've been too happy to protect the interests of these big clubs when they should have confronted them a long time ago, with domestic leagues as well, because they've been bullying other leagues, smaller teams, and UEFA for a long time now.

But, I'm not going to mention too much of that. I want to focus on the last paragraph. It's not hypocritical that their board would have jumped on it, because their fans are not the owners of the club, this also goes much further than that and has some sort of effect for every professional club in the country, to what extent we don't really know. BUt yes, that's all I wanted to say. Short and sweet.

 

[IamSpurtacus]

To be fair that 5.2B could also be to try and bridge the finance gap that would emerge in other clubs were ESL to happen.

The best case is fan ownership after governmental intervention. And the best case you present isn't clubs get more money and power, it's the top clubs get more power, and how UEFA works means that money is being taken away from another thing they do. Could be from their expensive beurocracy I guess, or more likely, could be from grassroots support or solidarity payments for smaller clubs.

Not saying the "best/worst" case is my preference - i mean from the club owners perspective

 

[Mattspur]

That's not how it happens in America. In American sports, you have salary caps, shared ticket and merchandising revenue, and a draft system. Last year the best player in college football Joe Burrow coming off one of the greatest ever seasons by a college quarterback went to the worst team in the NFL the 2-14 Cincinnati Bengals. Real aren't going to agree to a salary cap, Man Utd aren't going to let Arsenal get a cut of Utd shirts sold in China, Barca aren't going to give Tottenham a clear path to signing Erling Haaland, the ESL is American corporate sport minus the mechanisms that bring about parity.

We don't have parity between the clubs now, so what's different?

 

[dspursusa]

Bielsa via the beeb :

On the European Super League: "It shouldn't surprise us. In all walks of life the powerful look after their own and don't worry about the rest of us. The big teams are also created due to the opposition of the other teams.

"In the search for higher economic earnings they forget about the rest. The powerful are more rich and the weak are poorer. It doesn't do good to football in general.

"There are a lot of structures that should have prevented these forces from coming. For me sincerely I am not surprised because in all walks of life same thing happens, so why wouldn't it happen in football."

100% this.

I would be happy if he came in next. If he can get the levels he does out of the Leeds players, what could he do with our lot?!

His influence on how the game is played these days is really under appreciated.

 

[jolsnogross]

We don't have parity between the clubs now, so what's different?

There's a difference between financial inequality and sporting parity. We don't have financial equality among clubs now, but someone could buy Spurs, or Sheffield United, or any other club tomorrow and 'do a city' on it. That's not great, but it's open to everyone. And more importantly, access to titles and European competition is also open to everyone.

That's not the case with the proposed league. 15 teams are in regardless of performance and have access to funds at the outset and continuously that all other clubs do not have.

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

It’s such a bad move by the 12 clubs to just pull this and to do it without everything being clear to everybody.

There are 2 major sticking points to this for me:

1. The closed league aspect, and

2. That the clubs involved, if they play in the domestic leagues are going to have an even bigger advantage than they had before

I’m not against a super league or restructured European competition. I’m not even against breakaway clubs forming the initial league but I am against those 2 things.

If this super league had a bottom 4 that lost their places regardless of being founders and then a tournament of best placed teams not in it to fight for the 4 new places I’d feel a bit better.

If the super league had a salary cap, even if a soft cap with a luxury tax so when teams go over the cap they get dinged exponentially for how far they go over and that luxury tax goes back into domestic leagues if feel even better.

As it is though, this whole thing feels awful.

 

[Ghost Hardware]

Taking the league purely at face value, and for a moment forgetting about all the noise around it, it’s not really that super. No BM, BVB, PSG, even small clubs with big histories such a Ajax. Half of the current teams are from the PL. this, purely as spectacle, sounds pretty dull. I know three more teams are set to join but we know PSG won’t and I don’t think the fans will let the German teams join so what then. If all the best teams in the Europe really were involved I could see some, all be it very small, merit to it. But as it is, it sort of feels like a half baked idea. So now we are going to have BM and PSG challenging for CL every year and the rest of the big Europe teams playing in the SL.

 

[DenverSpur]

You are looking at this as a "competition"

The teams are not looking at it that way. They are looking at it purely as a revenue stream. Its essentially a higher revenue version of those summer "tournaments" that someone was funding for elite teams to play in America and Asia. Not all teams were invited.

But if it’s not a competition then it’s just a glorified friendly which means there’s nothing at stake. If there’s nothing at stake there’s no passion, tension or excitement so why would anyone want to pay to watch it?They might once but every week every year? I don’t think so.

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

Taking the league purely at face value, and for a moment forgetting about all the noise around it, it’s not really that super. No BM, BVB, PSG, even small clubs with big histories such a Ajax. Half of the current teams are from the PL. this, purely as spectacle, sounds pretty dull. I know three more teams are set to join but we know PSG won’t and I don’t think the fans will let the German teams join so what then. If all the best teams in the Europe really were involved I could see some, all be it very small, merit to it. But as it is, it sort of feels like a half baked idea. So now we are going to have BM and PSG challenging for CL every year and the rest of the big Europe teams playing in the SL.

Aren’t there 8 more teams going to join? 3 more permanent ? and 5 invites?

 

[ohtottenham!]

That's not how it happens in America. In American sports, you have salary caps and a draft system. Last year the best player in college football Joe Burrow coming off one of the greatest ever seasons by a college quarterback went to the worst team in the NFL the 2-14 Cincinnati Bengals. Real aren't going to agree to a salary cap, Barca aren't going to give Tottenham a clear path to signing Erling Haaland, the ESL is American corporate sport minus the mechanisms that bring about parity.

It won't surprise me in the slightest if those US sports' parity mechanisms like the salary caps and some kind of draft system are introduced in the future. It's a closed shop. Keep the product attractive, compelling and somewhat competitiive within the shop by whatever means because of the huge consumer market and resulting revenues.

 

[DenverSpur]

What leverage though? The 6 clubs know this is a game of poker and they have the winning hand. PL doesn't have any leverage. Take those 6 clubs out of it and you have nothing worth selling to anyone. It's the same with the CL - how do you market and sell a Leicester - Roma final? How do you sell Leicester/Everton/West Ham/ Southampton etc to Sky or any other broadcaster? Celtic & Rangers have huge history and yet who really gives a toss about watching the Scottish Premiership? If the SL goes ahead, then the PL has to be prudent and accept that they have to make this happen to ensure their own existence & it has to be done in a way that keeps the competitive & jeopardy aspect in the game. It's a shower of shit driven by greed though of that much I'm certain.

But if the 6 are allowed to stay in the PL whilst in the ESL the PL will be devalued because 6 clubs have no real reason to take it seriously as they are ensured more income from their midweek gig. By January if 2 teams from the 6 are the only ones liable to win the title virtually all games not involving them or the relegation candidates will be dead rubbers of no interest to anybody. That could be over 60% of games. Which TV company is going to pay decent money for that.
There is a misconception that the PL is so successful because of the big 6 and their top players. That’s not true. It successful because of the high tempo the game is played at and the passion and atmosphere in English stadiums. There are big clubs with top players in other leagues but In comparison Spanish and Italian football fir example is too slow lacking that excitement and passion. That’s why they don’t make the same money from TV rights as the PL does.
If the big 6 were kicked out the games in the PL would still be exciting and would therefore still have a worldwide market. Here in the US ESPN have live coverage of a number of Championship games every week. Which other country has overseas coverage of their second division? None because they can hardly persuade people overseas to watch their top division’s games.

 

[ohtottenham!]

But if it’s not a competition then it’s just a glorified friendly which means there’s nothing at stake. If there’s nothing at stake there’s no passion, tension or excitement so why would anyone want to pay to watch it?They might once but every week every year? I don’t think so.

We're "legacy" football fans apparently anyway, so it doesn't really matter. It's good they actually assigned us a consumer marketing category just so we're sure of our worth. Passion, tension, excitement have slowly been exiting the building anyway among our group in general, especially older fans.

 

[SpursSince1980]

We are getting pooped on from all corners. PR disaster. And now a no win situation. If the project is abandoned, we still look like greedy little buggers. If it goes through, we will still be seen as greedy, but also despised by so many people... including managers and players.

It will also have the potential to now handicap us in our search for a new manager. Not to mention some of our own players will be appalled by this decision. Likewise, many potential transfer targets may be turned off by the whole concept of the ESL on principle alone.

This is a perfect example of ‘breaking into prison’.

 

[C0YS]

But if the 6 are allowed to stay in the PL whilst in the ESL the PL will be devalued because 6 clubs have no real reason to take it seriously as they are ensured more income from their midweek gig. By January if 2 teams from the 6 are the only ones liable to win the title virtually all games not involving them or the relegation candidates will be dead rubbers of no interest to anybody. That could be over 60% of games. Which TV company is going to pay decent money for that.
There is a misconception that the PL is so successful because of the big 6 and their top players. That’s not true. It successful because of the high tempo the game is played at and the passion and atmosphere in English stadiums. There are big clubs with top players in other leagues but In comparison Spanish and Italian football fir example is too slow lacking that excitement and passion. That’s why they don’t make the same money from TV rights as the PL does.
If the big 6 were kicked out the games in the PL would still be exciting and would therefore still have a worldwide market. Here in the US ESPN have live coverage of a number of Championship games every week. Which other country has overseas coverage of their second division? None because they can hardly persuade people overseas to watch their top division’s games.

Just to add. Part of what makes the PL richer than other leagues, more than nebulous notions of passion and whatnot. Is that tv deals are negotiated collectively and money split pretty evenly with performances based differences. This is one of the big reasons the PL overtook competition. Most leagues, until recently sold their rights individually creating massive wealth divides in leagues such as Spain in Italy, therefore demolishing the quality in depth and resulting in less competitive leagues.

So the reason for the PLs success is less the league succeeded on the back of the big clubs but actually the very fact that within the league itself everyone’s an equal partner, it was also good for marketing because the league was sold for it in itself compared to other leagues where you were buying exclusively Juventus games etc.

So thea SL will seriously damage that element of the PL.

The irony is part of the reason other leagues are trying to create a SL is because they want a more competitive game because a more competitive game means a more marketable one, but the reason their leagues aren’t that competitive is because they sucked all the money out and created extreme inequalities In those leagues based on their greed and an inability to work with the other clubs to create a better package.

 

[coy-spurs1882]

But if the 6 are allowed to stay in the PL whilst in the ESL the PL will be devalued because 6 clubs have no real reason to take it seriously as they are ensured more income from their midweek gig. By January if 2 teams from the 6 are the only ones liable to win the title virtually all games not involving them or the relegation candidates will be dead rubbers of no interest to anybody. That could be over 60% of games. Which TV company is going to pay decent money for that.
There is a misconception that the PL is so successful because of the big 6 and their top players. That’s not true. It successful because of the high tempo the game is played at and the passion and atmosphere in English stadiums. There are big clubs with top players in other leagues but In comparison Spanish and Italian football fir example is too slow lacking that excitement and passion. That’s why they don’t make the same money from TV rights as the PL does.
If the big 6 were kicked out the games in the PL would still be exciting and would therefore still have a worldwide market. Here in the US ESPN have live coverage of a number of Championship games every week. Which other country has overseas coverage of their second division? None because they can hardly persuade people overseas to watch their top division’s games.

not sure if this would be the case if the big 6 become rich enough to maintain 2 starting teams without significant drop in quality (just like today's citeh), just saying

 

[jolsnogross]

The irony is part of the reason other leagues are trying to create a SL is because they want a more competitive game because a more competitive game means a more marketable one, but the reason their leagues aren’t that competitive is because they sucked all the money out and created extreme inequalities In those leagues based on their greed and an inability to work with the other clubs to create a better package.

And despite the gigantic wealth gap they created in their own favour, they still over leveraged themselves to insane levels and are now coming due....it'll be great if the ESL thing falls asunder and they don't get this bail out, which could make those leagues more competitive.

 

[scat1620]

Actually laughed out loud when I read this. Enjoy your former sport, ladies and gents.

 

[GMI]

I don't agree with the Super league format, as proposed, but there has been some excessive, emotional, reaction out there. It reminds me of when it looked like we were going to move to the London Stadium and Gold, Brady and Sullivan were outraged and started mentioning that the Queen would wish West Ham to be the rightful tennents of the stadium or something to that effect. I can't remember the exact details but bringing West Ham into the thread should at least lighten the mood in here a bit..

 

[Zaphod]

I suppose I’m ambivalent towards the idea at the moment. I certainly don’t like the idea of a closed shop but I’m not naive enough to think that it will stop at 20 clubs, more will be added as it establishes itself.

From a devil’s advocate point of view;

Things change, we used to play in the first division until 22 clubs up and left as they realised they could make more money in forming the Premiership (which has since changed to the Premier League).
The cup winners cup no longer exists, the European cup and the uefa cup have changed beyond recognition, mainly under pressure from the bigger clubs who wanted an ever larger slice of pie.

Look at the four clubs in the semi finals, there are, at best, billionaires playthings and more likely nothing more than attempts to sports-wash their reputations and distract from some pretty horrifying backgrounds and regimes, the other is a government supported club who have been allowed to operate on a different level to most other teams.

Uefa themselves haven’t been covered in glory these past few years as along with FIFA they’ve been found to be a den of corruption and nothing more than a money laundering operation for some individuals.

Greed came into football years ago, this is just yet another money grab. It’s not the first, it won’t be the last.

Lastly, players coming out and opposing the super league is all well and good, but the irony of being told that it’s greed by someone who earns in a week what the average fan works years for isn’t lost on me.

 

[ILS]

But any team can still win the PL. As far as the PL goes what's changed? Only that some of the teams who usually play in UEFA competitions won't enter them any more. The PL will still be popular for all the same reasons it is now.

As it stands, the SL isn't a replacement for the CL. It's a completely different tournament which isn't tied to the domestic leagues at all. A group of teams have said they'd rather play each other than enter the CL or play under UEFA. If there was relegation, where would they be relegated to? If there was promotion, where would they get promoted from? I know it's uncharted territory for football in Europe, but it obviously happens in America and to be honest, they all seem pretty happy with the way their sports work. I'm not sure it's the disaster people are making it out to be.

Sure, the CL will have some problems being as attractive as it once was, but UEFA has failed to protect its interests and has to have a hard look at itself as to how they let this happen.

There will be winners and losers in any type of reform, and whilst I feel for clubs like Everton and Leicester, who appear to have missed out, I also believe that had they had the chance to join they would have jumped at it, and therefore their complaints are somewhat hypocritical.

What's Changed? The competitiveness of games at this time of the season. At least 5 clubs might not give a shit if they win or lose as their guaranteed European Football.

Example. Man City run away with the league leaving the other five to play for what? They don't care if they win or lose as their in Europe regardless wherever they finish in the league. Therefore it devalues the premier League as a product which means less for the TV rights. How hard is it to understand how this will negatively affect the premier League. There is not one positive to be had.

I guarantee if Spurs weren't in the six you would be saying exactly what the other 14 club fans are saying.