Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

[Rout-Ledge]

From where we were it was

We were fantastic in the final push. Tore a few teams completely apart.

 

[spurs9]

ETH has also been allowed to build from the back and bring in exactly who he wanted in key positions. When he couldn't get De Jong they immediately moved for Cassemiro. They didn't say "lets see who we can get in the next window".

That's actually not true. I, unfortunately, have a few friends who are United fans and I forget who their targets were, but quite a few of there signings were around 3rd down the list.

ETH also desperately wanted Gakpo but ended up with Weghorst.

 

[G Ron]

That's actually not true. I, unfortunately, have a few friends who are United fans and I forget who their targets were, but quite a few of there signings were around 3rd down the list.

ETH also desperately wanted Gakpo but ended up with Weghorst.

So he didn’t get backed with c.€170M worth of players he managed at Ajax in Martinez and Anthony?

he most certainly got backed with his players

 

[spurs9]

And what side did he put out? Or did only Jose lose to them and not the team itself.

Just 2 changes from the 1st leg that we won 2-0.

 

[spurs9]

From where we were it was

The previous 28 league games prior (10 the same season, 18 the previous season), we won 14, so a difference of 3 wins.

 

[nedley]

Apologies for the long post.

Here is where I am at.

Ive wanted Conte to stay and Ive wanted him to be given the cycle he needs to get us to win. That was the remit when he joined and thats why I was excited with his appointment.

Conte wasnt brought in to deliver free flowing football and I didnt expect him to change. That said his football can be exciting when his teams hit their stride.

But in order to hit their stride, they need specific players in certain positions. CBs that can step out and join in the construction further forward. WBs who can stretch the pitch then get inside when the timing is right.

We havent addressed a lot of this. Only now weve brought in Porro and we still havent sorted the CBs out.

If we had brought in some CBs capable of this last summer and a WB, Id say Conte is massively falling. That would be true.

In our current scenario, I dont think he's blameless. Richarlison hardly getting a chance on the left is annoying, the persistance of keeping Son on the pitch when his inability to retain or progress possession is annoying and the slow integration of Bissouma hasnt helped when he could have adjusted to a 3 in midfield to help him adjust especially when Deki was injured.

But he has certainly been short changed.

Remember, Conte wasnt brought in for steady progress or to quality for CL. He was brought in to win.

When Chelsea brought in Jose, they spent big and majorly improved in every department. New CF, new FBs, new CB, new CM. Transformed the team and made the statement that they are going for it.

We did sign Richarlison and got Perisic but every other department felt more like 'stop-gap' or 'investment'.

I think that was the moment we should have realised this won't work under Conte.

With him, you need to be running close or winning in the first 18-24 months.

This period is basically the window you have with him and we pissed it away.

After the 2021 summer and Nuno debacle, top 4 last season was a miracle!!

Theres the moment! Put your foot down, make a statement. "Tottenham are going for it!"

You have to capitalise on the energy and climate at the time.

Spurs are rising under Conte, Arsenal failed at the last hurdle, City in transition, Liverpool look crestfallen.

Feed off that energy and pump it into the squad and coach.

Nope. We get another conservative window with compromises and promises about waiting for the next window.

In the meantime, United and Arsenal have both sorted themselves out and Newcastle are emerging.

The situation with Conte, for me, is now lost.

Im not talking about his body language, Im talking about what has happened since the summer.

Nor do I think he's phoning it in. If he was he wouldnt have been on the bench yesterday as he clearly doesnt look 100%.

However, I do believe he has no desire to stay beyond the summer unles something major happens (investment in the club with assurances) although thats still a long shot.

Therefore, I would wish to see a change, otherwise we are all just in limbo, hoping and waiting.

And thats the issue with this club. They let situations get out of control or head in a certain direction so much so that you start to wonder what itd be like with a change.

You then start to imagine coaches doing more with the players we have and it brings hope.

Id say to those people. Remember under Jose and Nuno. The same things were said "A better coach would get more out of this bunch".

And thats true. Conte did for a while.

Poch would too. Gallardo would too.

But it would inevitably hit a ceiling because that new energy, new voice wears off because the club allow it to by not bringing in major changes to each department of the field.

Do I think Poch, Gallardo or De Zerbi are a better fit for our club? Totally.

But thats not why we got Conte.

We brought him in to lead us to win. To show us the path. He isnt blameless and he is stubborn but thats what makes him a winner.

His way is the way, otherwise dont bother.

Conte could have been the one to lead us to win. The football would not always be pleasing and he would frustrate but its worth it.

Poch, Amorim and co will get masses on side because theyll make us believe and be as one but they wont necessarily take us to titles.

The club have to decide which route they prefer.

Great Post.

Sums up my feelings perfectly.

 

[spurs9]

So he didn’t get backed with c.€170M worth of players he managed at Ajax in Martinez and Anthony?

he most certainly got backed with his players

Despite him managing them before, they weren't 1st choice. Timber (who he also managed) was 1st choice for CB and there was another they wanted that the missed out on, Wesley Fofana if memory serves.

Can't remember who he wanted over Antony.

De Jong though, was the 1 player that ETH desperately wanted more than any other in any position.

 

[G Ron]

Despite him managing them before, they weren't 1st choice. Timber (who he also managed) was 1st choice for CB and there was another they wanted that the missed out on, Wesley Fofana if memory serves.

Can't remember who he wanted over Antony.

De Jong though, was the 1 player that ETH desperately wanted more than any other in any position.

Ok, so although they didn’t get him his first choice players, they still backed him by going with his back up choices, rather than players selected by the club.

I could fully accept us doing the same with Conte.

 

[spurs9]

Ok, so although they didn’t get him his first choice players, they still backed him by going with his back up choices, rather than players selected by the club.

I could fully accept us doing the same with Conte.

Casemiro was wanted by United prior to ETH and was a club signing.

Is there any evidence that any of our signings, apart from Spence, weren't Conte's back ups and if not, who were?

 

[McFlash]

Casemiro was wanted by United prior to ETH and was a club signing.

Is there any evidence that any of our signings, apart from Spence, weren't Conte's back ups and if not, who were?

On the other hand, is there any evidence that what you're saying about Utds target is true?
It's just come from fans like us, no?

 

[spurs9]

On the other hand, is there any evidence that what you're saying about Utds target is true?
It's just come from fans like us, no?

Coming from their reliable Journos, which was the evidence I was seeking from our side.

 

[G Ron]

Casemiro was wanted by United prior to ETH and was a club signing.

Is there any evidence that any of our signings, apart from Spence, weren't Conte's back ups and if not, who were?

I’d take reliable ITK over reliable journo’s and we’ve heard that Bissouma, Spence, Lenglet were not Conte choices.

ETH has been massively backed at United from signings to the termination of a Utd legends contract. Not sure what you’re trying to prove here but if it’s that we’ve backed Conte as much as United backed ETH then it’s a massive stretch and one I totally disagree with.

 

[DiVaio]

we’ve heard that Bissouma,we’re not Conte choices.

Who said that? Completely doesn't make sense

 

[spurs9]

I’d take reliable ITK over reliable journo’s and we’ve heard that Bissouma, Spence, Lenglet were not Conte choices.

ETH has been massively backed at United from signings to the termination of a Utd legends contract. Not sure what you’re trying to prove here but if it’s that we’ve backed Conte as much as United backed ETH then it’s a massive stretch and one I totally disagree with.

Which ITK said that about Bissouma? Conte wanted Lenglet at Inter, so I don't believe he wasn't a Conte choice.

 

[RELISYS]

I’d take reliable ITK over reliable journo’s and we’ve heard that Bissouma, Spence, Lenglet were not Conte choices.

ETH has been massively backed at United from signings to the termination of a Utd legends contract. Not sure what you’re trying to prove here but if it’s that we’ve backed Conte as much as United backed ETH then it’s a massive stretch and one I totally disagree with.

Conte wanted Lenglet at Inter Milan, Ironically not getting his first choice then made him have to use Bastoni more. The only player Conte has said was a Club signing was Djed Spence and Conte wouldn't of kept quite if he did not want Bissouma, he would be perfect for the Kante role he used at Chelsea.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Apologies for the long post.

Here is where I am at.

Ive wanted Conte to stay and Ive wanted him to be given the cycle he needs to get us to win. That was the remit when he joined and thats why I was excited with his appointment.

Conte wasnt brought in to deliver free flowing football and I didnt expect him to change. That said his football can be exciting when his teams hit their stride.

But in order to hit their stride, they need specific players in certain positions. CBs that can step out and join in the construction further forward. WBs who can stretch the pitch then get inside when the timing is right.

We havent addressed a lot of this. Only now weve brought in Porro and we still havent sorted the CBs out.

If we had brought in some CBs capable of this last summer and a WB, Id say Conte is massively falling. That would be true.

In our current scenario, I dont think he's blameless. Richarlison hardly getting a chance on the left is annoying, the persistance of keeping Son on the pitch when his inability to retain or progress possession is annoying and the slow integration of Bissouma hasnt helped when he could have adjusted to a 3 in midfield to help him adjust especially when Deki was injured.

But he has certainly been short changed.

Remember, Conte wasnt brought in for steady progress or to quality for CL. He was brought in to win.

When Chelsea brought in Jose, they spent big and majorly improved in every department. New CF, new FBs, new CB, new CM. Transformed the team and made the statement that they are going for it.

We did sign Richarlison and got Perisic but every other department felt more like 'stop-gap' or 'investment'.

I think that was the moment we should have realised this won't work under Conte.

With him, you need to be running close or winning in the first 18-24 months.

This period is basically the window you have with him and we pissed it away.

After the 2021 summer and Nuno debacle, top 4 last season was a miracle!!

Theres the moment! Put your foot down, make a statement. "Tottenham are going for it!"

You have to capitalise on the energy and climate at the time.

Spurs are rising under Conte, Arsenal failed at the last hurdle, City in transition, Liverpool look crestfallen.

Feed off that energy and pump it into the squad and coach.

Nope. We get another conservative window with compromises and promises about waiting for the next window.

In the meantime, United and Arsenal have both sorted themselves out and Newcastle are emerging.

The situation with Conte, for me, is now lost.

Im not talking about his body language, Im talking about what has happened since the summer.

Nor do I think he's phoning it in. If he was he wouldnt have been on the bench yesterday as he clearly doesnt look 100%.

However, I do believe he has no desire to stay beyond the summer unles something major happens (investment in the club with assurances) although thats still a long shot.

Therefore, I would wish to see a change, otherwise we are all just in limbo, hoping and waiting.

And thats the issue with this club. They let situations get out of control or head in a certain direction so much so that you start to wonder what itd be like with a change.

You then start to imagine coaches doing more with the players we have and it brings hope.

Id say to those people. Remember under Jose and Nuno. The same things were said "A better coach would get more out of this bunch".

And thats true. Conte did for a while.

Poch would too. Gallardo would too.

But it would inevitably hit a ceiling because that new energy, new voice wears off because the club allow it to by not bringing in major changes to each department of the field.

Do I think Poch, Gallardo or De Zerbi are a better fit for our club? Totally.

But thats not why we got Conte.

We brought him in to lead us to win. To show us the path. He isnt blameless and he is stubborn but thats what makes him a winner.

His way is the way, otherwise dont bother.

Conte could have been the one to lead us to win. The football would not always be pleasing and he would frustrate but its worth it.

Poch, Amorim and co will get masses on side because theyll make us believe and be as one but they wont necessarily take us to titles.

The club have to decide which route they prefer.

So so so spot on! ?

 

[Cel]

IF he is I agree totally with you.

Oh, he's certainly not.

I kind of wonder if Conte hadn't been cast as almost the anti levy hero, at a point that that the relationship between the fans and the board seem lowest in a long while, what would be happening. I reckon any other manager in the last 15-20 years who had us losing in the manner we have been with no real fight or try about us, may not be defended quite as much. Also, if he fails, the 'Spurs can't even win with Conte' thing is strong I guess.

In saying that - I'm 100% supportive of Levy Out chants, Levy has taken us as far as he can, and I though I think he's was great to get us to being financially relevant, now we are, someone else needs to drive us forward, as the over caution and brinksmanship are hurting us, when they used to help us be competitive. We need someone who can assess the risks, but not be scared to take one if it's within appetite. I think levy is always going to play it very safe.

I just don't agree supporting Conte is almost a given you have to do, I guess, for that to happen. On balance I'd prefer they both go. A lot of the wins have not been convincing in the slightest, and the losses have often been thumping's, not unlucky sucker punches - we've been played off the park a too many few times this year, whilst pretty much looking clueless.

A year in, and I have no idea what we are trying to be. We are neither defensive or attacking. We don't play possession, but we also don't counter. It would be so much easier to get behind if I could identify us trying something, and getting it wrong, and I desperately want to, as I want success as much as the next person.

Trouble is, I'm slowly finding I'm in the minority that thinks we probably wont win things even if Conte is backed with the exact players he wants, as his tactics are out of date, and football has evolved. Almost the whole league now looks to win, not set up not to lose. The best teams are dominating possession AND breaking at pace when the opportunity is there.

We do neither, and it worries me. It also worries me that no other team in the English top flight is playing 3-4-3, at all. A quick look around the top leagues sees Bayern & Dortmund in a 4231, Real & Barca in a 433, Athletico largely in a 442.

EDIT: Napoli are playing 433 and top of the league - thanks Ralph, long day, reading fail!!

It's got a kind of 'that's an awful lot of managerial talent not playing that way' feel to it...

 

[makeveli]

Let’s just go with what levy does conte is going and poch is back I’ve already accepted it

 

[ralphs bald spot]

Oh, he's certainly not.

I kind of wonder if Conte hadn't been cast as almost the anti levy hero, at a point that that the relationship between the fans and the board seem lowest in a long while, what would be happening. I reckon any other manager in the last 15-20 years who had us losing in the manner we have been with no real fight or try about us, may not be defended quite as much. Also, if he fails, the 'Spurs can't even win with Conte' thing is strong I guess.

In saying that - I'm 100% supportive of Levy Out chants, Levy has taken us as far as he can, and I though I think he's was great to get us to being financially relevant, now we are, someone else needs to drive us forward, as the over caution and brinksmanship are hurting us, when they used to help us be competitive. We need someone who can assess the risks, but not be scared to take one if it's within appetite. I think levy is always going to play it very safe.

I just don't agree supporting Conte is almost a given you have to do, I guess, for that to happen. On balance I'd prefer they both go. A lot of the wins have not been convincing in the slightest, and the losses have often been thumping's, not unlucky sucker punches - we've been played off the park a too many few times this year, whilst pretty much looking clueless.

A year in, and I have no idea what we are trying to be. We are neither defensive or attacking. We don't play possession, but we also don't counter. It would be so much easier to get behind if I could identify us trying something, and getting it wrong, and I desperately want to, as I want success as much as the next person.

Trouble is, I'm slowly finding I'm in the minority that thinks we probably wont win things even if Conte is backed with the exact players he wants, as his tactics are out of date, and football has evolved. Almost the whole league now looks to win, not set up not to lose. The best teams are dominating possession AND breaking at pace when the opportunity is there.

We do neither, and it worries me. It also worries me that no other team in the English top flight is playing 3-4-3, at all. A quick look around the top leagues sees Bayern & Dortmund in a 4231, Real & Barca in a 433, Athletico largely in a 442.

The only league in europe that plays a lot of 3 ATB is Italy, where Inter are running away with it - but playing exclusively 3-5-2.

It's got a kind of 'that's an awful lot of managerial talent not playing that way' feel to it...

Napoli are strolling Serie A 16 points clear and they play 4-3-3 under Spaletti

 

[H-SF]

Indeed, the fact that our last 3 managers have gone on to win trophies after they left us is testament to that. Conte will do exactly the same if he moves on.

This stat creates a misleading narrative. Pochettino largely failed at PSG, Jose really hasn’t done an impressive job at Roma (yes they won the fucking conference league) and Nuno is managing in Saudi Arabia. None of them have done anything to suggest we were wrong to sack them.