Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

[DanielJohnCosta]

That’s just blinkered.
The points record since he took over last season proves that.
This season has been different but they way we played under him last season can’t be questioned

Doesn’t he have as many losses as AVB?

 

[Nebby]

I do absolutely. I feel for conte in that way he lost his friends.
injuries is part of football and surely we were limited at times especially when kulu and richy both were out. But we still could have done better without those players. Bentancur injury i agree is terrible news and also bissouma. Now we have skipp and sarr as cm’s and they will not work in a 3-4-3 so it will be interesting how we will line up against milan.

I feel for him on a personal level. Losing friends is going to hurt. But on a professional level, I'm mightily bored with the football, and am frustrated that he seems totally wedded to one system and one style of play, which I don't believe is getting the best out of the squad he has available. So this is shaping up to be another season wasted, as it seems pretty likely that he will be off in the summer.

 

[H-SF]

Arteta was heavily criticised for over 2 years straight by Arsenal fans, I mean there were protests ffs. It's literally only this season they've completely changed their tune. It's amazing how certain systems and formations only spring into life when you have a full compliment of players able to implement it. It's also exactly the same with Klopp now. He doesn't have the midfielders to play his 4-3-3 Gegen press yet he's sticking to it and it's cost them an awful lot of points.

Why do they stick with it? Because they know that once they get every piece in place it works, and by this point everyone else in the team is well drilled to get the best out of that system.

The systems Arteta and Klopp want to/are implementing have a much higher ceiling than our passive 3-4-3, which simply isn't as competitive as it would have been 5 years ago. At least when Klopp's side didn't have the personnel you could still see the potential of their high press system. Even without VVD (he did join in January tbf), Fabinho and Alisson they went from 8th to 4th to 4th and a CL final. With Arteta there has been gradual improvement every season, if it wasn't for injuries they would have finished 4th last season. However, we have regressed this season, all our data is terrible and we are awful on the eye. You back a process when there it tangible improvement over time and something to support on the pitch and neither exist in our case atm.

 

[Timberwolf]

The systems Arteta and Klopp want to/are implementing have a much higher ceiling than our passive 3-4-3, which simply isn't as competitive as it would have been 5 years ago. At least when Klopp's side didn't have the personnel you could still see the potential of their high press system. Even without VVD (he did join in January tbf), Fabinho and Alisson they went from 8th to 4th to 4th and a CL final. With Arteta there has been gradual improvement every season, if it wasn't for injuries they would have finished 4th last season. However, we have regressed this season, all our data is terrible and we are awful on the eye. You back a process when there it tangible improvement over time and something to support on the pitch and neither exist in our case atm.

Yeah I do think there's an argument to be made that, for all it's prior success, Conte's system may be nearing its sell by date. Certainly in the PL anyway.

It's 6 years since he won the league with Chelsea here and, not only was it a weaker league back then but he had no European distractions to deal with at the time. Conte's teams always thrive when they have fewer mid-week games and given the mad number of cups and the silly schedule we have in this country it's not exactly ideal for his style of play.

The quality of manager across the entire league and the standard of tactics has also come on a long way since 16/17 and I'm not sure a system as rigid as Conte's is guaranteed to succeed anymore even if we do buy him all the right players to play his system perfectly. We had a purple patch last season while teams were still figuring us out but since then teams seem to have worked out exactly how to stifle us and we have no answers to it. Even with the limitations of our squad, the way we've been played off the park by inferior teams on multiple occasions this season can't solely be down to our personnel. There's more to it than that IMO.

 

[danielneeds]

Yeah I do think there's an argument to be made that, for all it's prior success, Conte's system may be nearing its sell by date. Certainly in the PL anyway.

It's 7 years since he won the league with Chelsea here and, not only was it a weaker league back then but he had no European distractions to deal with at the time. Conte's teams always thrive when they have fewer mid-week games and given the mad number of cups and the silly schedule we have in this country it's not exactly ideal for his style of play.

The quality of manager across the entire league and the standard of tactics has also come on a long way since 16/17 and I'm not sure a system as rigid as Conte's is guaranteed to succeed anymore even if we do buy him all the right players to play his system perfectly. Even with the limitations of our squad, the way we've been played off the park by inferior teams on multiple occasions this season can't solely be down to our personnel. There's more to it than that IMO.

Schedule and intensity of the league has no bearing on Conte’s sell-by-date. Most managers we’d be looking at would be high pressing types which requires more intensity if anything.

 

[Timberwolf]

Schedule and intensity of the league has no bearing on Conte’s sell-by-date. Most managers we’d be looking at would be high pressing types which requires more intensity if anything.

Yeah but have you ever heard of a manager who is so renowned for doing well with a week to prep between games and poorly when they're coming thick and fast? None of the high pressing managers have that reputation yet Conte does.

That point was separate from the sell-by-date thing anyway and rather an argument that the intensity and schedule of English football might not be a great fit for him when he also has European football to deal with (which he didn't in his first season at Chelsea). By far our best period last season was at the end once we were out of all of the cups and had more time between games.

 

[mil1lion]

The systems Arteta and Klopp want to/are implementing have a much higher ceiling than our passive 3-4-3, which simply isn't as competitive as it would have been 5 years ago. At least when Klopp's side didn't have the personnel you could still see the potential of their high press system. Even without VVD (he did join in January tbf), Fabinho and Alisson they went from 8th to 4th to 4th and a CL final. With Arteta there has been gradual improvement every season, if it wasn't for injuries they would have finished 4th last season. However, we have regressed this season, all our data is terrible and we are awful on the eye. You back a process when there it tangible improvement over time and something to support on the pitch and neither exist in our case atm.

I can't agree with that. It literally worked last season. The trouble is that was maxing out the likes of Davies and Dier who simply are not good enough to play that level all season. 343 will work with better defenders I'm certain of it. We saw an example of how well last few months of the season. It hasn't suddenly become an outdated system. Certain players just aren't playing to that level anymore yet we've known for a few years who those players are. What happens is a new manager comes in and gets an initial improvement from them, then they return to their usual form and the cycle continues. We can talk system all we like but regardless neither Guardiola, Arteta, Klopp or Potter succeeds with these defenders.

 

[Spursfan1414]

Does our form from February, performances and top 4 finish after being miles off it and not given a chance not give you even a small suggestion as to what he can do?

He's had a full pre-season, a lot of extra help in the transfer market and yet we've absolutely fallen off a cliff. There's only so long you can point to a great 10-12 game patch as mitigation.

The fact that he has a long standing issue of struggling with a busy schedule just makes it more worrying. It's not a new issue, but he seems to have no ideas of how to fix it. It's no coincidence that we played by far our best game of the season after our best players had a period of extended rest.

I'd be willing to give him time if it looked like he had any ideas but he doesn't. He keeps trying the same things and they keep not working. Why would anyone expect things to be any different when we're playing twice a week again next year?

Add to that, I don't think a manager who flat out refuses to use players like Spence or Gil as squad options is a good fit for us. We're not City or Chelsea and we can't pretend that we can compete with them by copying their model of buying ready made players with 200 appearances in top leagues already. We have to buy some promising talents and grow them into top players to compete, Conte is not the guy for that.

 

[ReadieSpur]

Conte is clearly an elite elite manager , if you don't think he is you're blinded by wanting change.

The question for me is , right now is he mentally coping after everything he is going through and if as is more than likely he is off in the summer how long do we give him to get back to himself.

We have seen the formation can work even with these awful defenders , the proof is there so no need to try and dissect his proven tactics.

elite manager or has managed elite clubs?

 

[Albertbarich]

elite manager or has managed elite clubs?

Could ask the same of Pep. Look at Ancellotti at Everton and now Madrid.

He maybe the wrong fit for us right now but you can't deny his pedigree.

 

[ReadieSpur]

Could ask the same of Pep. Look at Ancellotti at Everton and now Madrid.

He maybe the wrong fit for us right now but you can't deny his pedigree.

I totally agree. Its a lot tougher at clubs that don't habitually sit at the top of their respective league and the 'elite' managers get found out.

 

[sidford]

Post in thread 'Next Manager Watch' https://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/next-manager-watch.151913/post-8252014

Sounds like it's an opinion from Hercules rather than ITK but thought it was relevant so putting link in here

If the players know hes not hanging around after this season then their performance levels will inevitably suffer. Why buy into his methods & tactics when he's unlikely to be here next season. Without sounding too defeatist it's going to be a long 2nd half of season

 

[Albertbarich]

Sounds like everything is going swimmingly

 

[funkycoldmedina]

Sounds like everything is going swimmingly

This sounds like the club/Levy undermining Conte. Just find away to find a mutually beneficial exit, no need for it to be acrimonious

 

[Rout-Ledge]

elite manager or has managed elite clubs?

He’s an elite manager with caveats.

He’s won things at big clubs but he took over during periods that those clubs weren’t achieving big things. He has consistently done that. Even after he leaves here, which is looking like his worst managerial spell by some way, he can include a CL qualification on his CV.

The caveats however are significant:

1. For whatever reason he can’t sustain his methods over an extended period. He’s in his 50s now but his longest spell at any job is three years. There must be a reason for that, and it won’t be anything good.

2. By the standards of an elite European coach, who has managed elite European clubs, his record in the elite European competition is woefully bad. No excuses can be made for him on that one.

3. He’s achieved one major title win outside of Italy. That was when he had a clear run at the league without any European football. His second season at Chelsea (despite winning a domestic pot) was shocking, and he actually failed to qualify for the CL that season. It’s starting to resemble his second season here quite closely. Let’s hope we also get the domestic pot to go with it eh?

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Sounds like everything is going swimmingly

I am struggling to understand what the problem is here.

U21s are supporting the senior team. Horrors!

 

[ralphs bald spot]

I can't agree with that. It literally worked last season. The trouble is that was maxing out the likes of Davies and Dier who simply are not good enough to play that level all season. 343 will work with better defenders I'm certain of it. We saw an example of how well last few months of the season. It hasn't suddenly become an outdated system. Certain players just aren't playing to that level anymore yet we've known for a few years who those players are. What happens is a new manager comes in and gets an initial improvement from them, then they return to their usual form and the cycle continues. We can talk system all we like but regardless neither Guardiola, Arteta, Klopp or Potter succeeds with these defenders.

to some degree your right better players work in any system more or less - alas that's not where we are and the system which we play is as or arguably more responsible for some of the performances and in particular the awful football we have had to endure this season. I would also argue that its the managers role to fit a system around the players he has - but its a perpetual argument with no answers - the biggest disappointment with Conte and there are a few is the apparent lack of organisation in the side - one thing you expect from an Italian manager is that - we are continually so vulnerable without the ball and then ponderous on the ball

relaxed about it all now though as I can't see anyway he will be here next season - I hope he can steal an FA Cup and we ought to beat Milan who are probably worse than us but we aren't winning that cup but you never know

 

[Joshua shepherd]

Doesn’t he have as many losses as AVB?

But there was a time when AVB had our highest premier league points tally, I’m not sure it’s a negative, more just a headline.

 

[carpediem991]

I am struggling to understand what the problem is here.

U21s are supporting the senior team. Horrors!

I think one of the issues is they have absolutely no shot of actually playing for the first team. I imagine they are mostly used as cones to play around. Definitley god lesson from time to time for young players, but how much they develop just our of that remains a question.

I do not really care if the U21s are succesful, but I care if some can step up to the first team. And given our highly praised set up the outcome is very disappointing.

 

[Joshua shepherd]

I just can’t believe that people can put so much judgement on him for two reasons.

Firstly, we’ve not been able to put out our full team more than once or twice this season, when we have we’ve got results, regardless of performance.

Secondly, we have the worst set of 6 CB’s in the top 10-15 teams. I just can’t judge how we play when Dier and Davies or Sanchez or tanganga or Lenglet are in the team, they have never been good enough and they never will. That’s the spine of the team and it’s as if we’ve got scoliosis.

Until we’ve gone through the full rebuild, i.e not having 10 of pochs boys still in the squad, how can you judge fairly. We didn’t do any better under nuno, or under Jose, I don’t understand why people are adamant we’d do better with any other manager.

They talk about him not improving players but Kanes on for his best goal scoring season in about 5 years, son went to a different level last year, albeit dropping off this season. Dier and Davies were being hailed as good players throughout the last 18 months. It’s not about contes inability to improve players, it’s about the inconsistency of the players we have.