Harry Winks - Leicester City

[Luka Van der Bale]

It’s all very neat and tidy.But will need to start seeing more if he’s not to be another mason or Carroll.Imo he’s way ahead of those 2,but we need a little more to stop me wanting a £50m replacement for dembele.Its almost the only area we need to spend,so we could spend big.Currently Id say it’s a AM and CM next summer.We could easily look to £100m on those 2 and get real quality.we will have bits and bobs coming back janssen £20m Nkoudou £10m Ccv £10m etc .So £100m spend is realistic.Therefore Winks has to show this season he’s better than a £50m replacement.

You think we’ll sell CCV? Wouldn’t get your hopes up on that one mate.

 

[coys200]

Good luck with that £50m replacement, I wonder if Toni Kroos wouldn't mind leaving Real to come and join Spurs.

£50m is now just a good player not top notch.probably what you’d pay for a Lamela when we bought him.Everton paid what £45m For sigurdson.And If the new TV deal is increased £50m is even more devalued.

 

[coys200]

You think we’ll sell CCV? Wouldn’t get your hopes up on that one mate.

Can’t see how he fits in if nobody is sold next summer.We put a lot of effort into getting foyth and clearly rate him above Ccv.He’s Basically 6th choice,with the likes of tanganga coming up fast.Poch likes a smallish squad of about 24.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

Can’t see how he fits in if nobody is sold next summer.We put a lot of effort into getting foyth and clearly rate him above Ccv.He’s Basically 6th choice,with the likes of tanganga coming up fast.Poch likes a smallish squad of about 24.

We’re clearly trying to move away from using Dier in defence though. Assuming playing with a back 3 is our first choice lineup (it is), Foyth is currently the only rotation option if we don’t use Dier at CB. Plenty of room for another.

 

[coys200]

We’re clearly trying to move away from using Dier in defence though. Assuming playing with a back 3 is our first choice lineup (it is), Foyth is currently the only rotation option if we don’t use Dier at CB. Plenty of room for another.

Not sure about that,Just think because wanyama been injured we’ve had no choice.Once wanyama is fit I fully expect to see dier in back 3 for rotation to give our main 3 the odd rest.

 

[spids]

We're 3rd in the league despite missing our two first choice CMs (Wanyama and Dembele) for the majority of the games so far. Not many teams could cope without their first choice senior CM pairing. Winks and Dier and fantastic competition on CM and we should not complain too much about them. I expect Barkley to arrive in January giving Poch even more options to choose from.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

Not sure about that,Just think because wanyama been injured we’ve had no choice.Once wanyama is fit I fully expect to see dier in back 3 for rotation to give our main 3 the odd rest.

Against Chelsea we played the exact lineup that would have seen a 3 at the back last season. Yet Dier, Wanyama and Dembele formed a midfield 3. Pochettino and Dier have clearly had a chat and settled on midfield as the position we want to move forward on working with him in. We also broke our record on a CB which says a lot imo. He’ll play the odd match there but never again for an extended period imo.

 

[FibreOpticJesus]

I suspect Winks is doing what Poch has asked him to do until he settles in a bit better. Then, with luck, we'll see him cut loose and show more of what he can do.

He was my MOM yesterday. He always had an idea of what he was going to do with the ball before he got it. I was at the match yesterday but did not hear who got MOM. Anyone know? And yes I did stay to the end.

 

[Lilbaz]

You can't make this shit up. Ray Parlour on talksport saying Winks may leave in the transfer window to get more game time.

Parlour isn't even one of the more dislikeable pundits, he's just a twunt like Merson, but it just shows some of them have absolutely no awareness at all of what certain clubs/players' situations are. It's embarrassing. I had to turn it off, though that decision was made easier because listening to Alan Brazil's alcohol fuelled shite is often too much to listen to.

You can make this shit up and talksport do very often. It gets people riled up enough that they are willing to spend a fortune on a premium number to phone in and have an argument.

What i don't understand is why people listen to it?

 

[bomberH]

You can make this shit up and talksport do very often. It gets people riled up enough that they are willing to spend a fortune on a premium number to phone in and have an argument.

What i don't understand is why people listen to it?

The reason people listen to it is because it's the only radio station that's almost entirely football based (bar the odd bit of cricket & rugby etc) and football is better to listen to than Capital FM.... sometimes.

We all know it's full of ****s. Parlour said this when they weren't even taking calls. It was just waffle, there hadn't been a call for about 20 minutes and there wasn't a call after either because they had special guests on. It was pure idiocy. You're right in the main though, Durham is the king of getting people to call in. I guess my fear is that there are lots of impressionable young Spurs fans who listen to Talksport and believe what the presenters say or what the mentally challenged callers who they purposely give air time to have to say.

It's awful but it's football. You couldn't ask for worse people to be on air. All it needs is for Jim White to team up with Jason Cundy and the station will implode.

Can't wait til January.... '40 (million) Winks eyed up by Madrid' - The Moose.

 

[swarvsta]

Amazing how someone not as good as Dier at passing manages to rack up more passses, more forward passes, more key passes, creates more chances, more assists isn’t it?

This maybe anathema to you, but footballer pundits aren’t always right.

You come across so badly on this forum. The sort of arrogant 'know it all' no one would like to meet in life. You are the new-age football fan who thinks if he uses more words than needed to get a point across it makes the argument stronger. Backing things up with 'stats' that allow you present opinions as facts.

You CANNOT compare Dier and Henderson on the stats you use. They play totally different roles for their sides. Despite Henderson apparently being more attacking, I constantly see him drop as deep as possible and play little one-twos with centre backs or full backs. It's almost like he is trying to build up his passing stats, because so much of his work is without purpose. It is similar to the role Cazorla did at Arsenal, playing deep and tip-tapping it around.

Making the highest number of passes does not mean you are a better or more effective player. It's just not as simple as that.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You come across so badly on this forum. The sort of arrogant 'know it all' no one would like to meet in life. You are the new-age football fan who thinks if he uses more words than needed to get a point across it makes the argument stronger. Backing things up with 'stats' that allow you present opinions as facts.

You CANNOT compare Dier and Henderson on the stats you use. They play totally different roles for their sides. Despite Henderson apparently being more attacking, I constantly see him drop as deep as possible and play little one-twos with centre backs or full backs. It's almost like he is trying to build up his passing stats, because so much of his work is without purpose. It is similar to the role Cazorla did at Arsenal, playing deep and tip-tapping it around.

Making the highest number of passes does not mean you are a better or more effective player. It's just not as simple as that.

Please, please, find me the post where I say the highest number of passes makes the best or most effective player. It's literally like you either have not read, couldn't be arsed to read or did not understand the many posts I made and the more involved arguments I made and and various different, multi faceted statistics I actually did post.

 

[swarvsta]

As I said, Henderson isn't my idea of "great" but in a game like that on Sunday, he was much better than Dier has been, because he's more dynamic, sees and recycles much more of the ball, moves it quicker, more incisively and more accurately than Dier does, these are pretty much facts (see below), one of the reasons is that he is more comfortable than Dier receiving and passing under pressure.

I find it hard to debate with you because, as I said, you use way too many words without making much of a point. For example, the 70 odd word sentence I have quoted!

Your claim here is that because Henderson "sees and recycles much more of the ball" he is "much better than Dier has been". I am not sure that your stats prove that he moves it "more incisively" than Dier. Neither of them getting many assists, and the 'key pass' stat is dependent on opinion, and who is counting the stats.

I am not Dier's biggest fan. Not by any stretch. But stats aside, I have watched hundreds of games on TV, seen Dier live over 50 times and Henderson at least 10 times. Henderson is nowhere near a massive upgrade on Dier - I think he is really poor, slows play down and plays safe 5 yards passes non-stop. This is an opinion based on watching football matches, and myself playing to a high standard in central midfield. I watch Henderson, and think 'wow - I know 100s of players who could play that role'. Henderson does very little to impact football matches.

I hope we can both agree that Winks has fantastic potential and has rare skills that neither Dier or Henderson will ever possess - but I will never agree that Henderson would offer some massive upgrade on Dier and in some way make Winks a better player.

My final disagreement is trying to compare an away Premier League game to an away game against Lithuania! Their best player can barely get a game for Hibs. Most of their side are playing a very lowly level of football. Of course Winks would get the ball in more advanced positions. Did you even watch the game?

I just prefer to base my opinions of watching football, rather than using stats and heat maps from Squawka.

Each to their own, I guess!

 

[Spurger King]

I find it hard to debate with you because, as I said, you use way too many words without making much of a point. For example, the 70 odd word sentence I have quoted!

Your claim here is that because Henderson "sees and recycles much more of the ball" he is "much better than Dier has been". I am not sure that your stats prove that he moves it "more incisively" than Dier. Neither of them getting many assists, and the 'key pass' stat is dependent on opinion, and who is counting the stats.

I am not Dier's biggest fan. Not by any stretch. But stats aside, I have watched hundreds of games on TV, seen Dier live over 50 times and Henderson at least 10 times. Henderson is nowhere near a massive upgrade on Dier - I think he is really poor, slows play down and plays safe 5 yards passes non-stop. This is an opinion based on watching football matches, and myself playing to a high standard in central midfield. I watch Henderson, and think 'wow - I know 100s of players who could play that role'. Henderson does very little to impact football matches.

I hope we can both agree that Winks has fantastic potential and has rare skills that neither Dier or Henderson will ever possess - but I will never agree that Henderson would offer some massive upgrade on Dier and in some way make Winks a better player.

My final disagreement is trying to compare an away Premier League game to an away game against Lithuania! Their best player can barely get a game for Hibs. Most of their side are playing a very lowly level of football. Of course Winks would get the ball in more advanced positions. Did you even watch the game?

I just prefer to base my opinions of watching football, rather than using stats and heat maps from Squawka.

Each to their own, I guess!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I find it hard to debate with you because, as I said, you use way too many words without making much of a point. For example, the 70 odd word sentence I have quoted!

Your claim here is that because Henderson "sees and recycles much more of the ball" he is "much better than Dier has been". I am not sure that your stats prove that he moves it "more incisively" than Dier. Neither of them getting many assists, and the 'key pass' stat is dependent on opinion, and who is counting the stats.

I am not Dier's biggest fan. Not by any stretch. But stats aside, I have watched hundreds of games on TV, seen Dier live over 50 times and Henderson at least 10 times. Henderson is nowhere near a massive upgrade on Dier - I think he is really poor, slows play down and plays safe 5 yards passes non-stop. This is an opinion based on watching football matches, and myself playing to a high standard in central midfield. I watch Henderson, and think 'wow - I know 100s of players who could play that role'. Henderson does very little to impact football matches.

I hope we can both agree that Winks has fantastic potential and has rare skills that neither Dier or Henderson will ever possess - but I will never agree that Henderson would offer some massive upgrade on Dier and in some way make Winks a better player.

My final disagreement is trying to compare an away Premier League game to an away game against Lithuania! Their best player can barely get a game for Hibs. Most of their side are playing a very lowly level of football. Of course Winks would get the ball in more advanced positions. Did you even watch the game?

I just prefer to base my opinions of watching football, rather than using stats and heat maps from Squawka.

Each to their own, I guess!

Ah, I get ya, we are playing the "I trust my eyes more than your pesky stats" game. Well I've watched Dier about 100 times, and Henderson probably about 30-35. If we are talking about what the bring with the ball, then I can tell you that Dier also slows play down with his hugely risk averse and limited vision passing, much of which is also short and very unimaginative and also does very little to impact football matches creatively. He is less comfortable receiving the ball and playing it under pressure than Henderson. He is also not as dynamic with or without the ball as Henderson. Can't press players as well because he gets spun too easily because of his physique and slight lack of dexterity.

To be honest, I don't watch either player and think "wow" what a superb midfielder they are. I never said Henderson was a massive upgrade on Dier, period, I just said for a game like that, in this circumstances, and later on suggested that the facts don't really support a theory that - with the ball anyway - Dier is in any way better than Henderson.

So I'll see your "my eyes tell me" bollocks and then raise you some facts - in short sentences.

Henderson gets through a shit load (30%) more of the ball than Dier.

He gives it away less.

He makes about 50% more successful forward passes.

He makes over double the key passes.

He makes three times the assists.

He creates three times as many goal scoring chances for others.


All these stats relate to PL games. Now, you may think they are open to some contextualisation. But they are compiled by an independent organisation, not me, with no agenda for either player.

They do not also tell the whole story of each player, I do not pretend they do. I merely throw them in because I think they offer some independent, un spurs biased, corroboration of what my eyes tell me as opposed to what your eyes seem to tell you about what these two players bring with the ball.

I caveated originally that comparing Henderson and Dier playing with Winks were not exact like for like scenarios, but suggested there were many similar facets, enough to make some kind of comparison. Same formation, same CM2, 4 of the same team mates, a passive opposition etc.

In that kind of system, against that kind of opposition, I believe Henderson was a better choice to play in that CM2 with Winks. I think England did not need anything Dier could bring more than what Henderson brings, which is being more dynamic, moving the ball quicker, trying to move it with more progression and with more more incision, and being more comfortable receiving and playing it under pressure of an opposition press. Also being more prepared to play in forward compressed areas, where that game was played.

 

[swarvsta]

I am not a big fan of either player. I respect the research you put in, but I will never agree with this stats based logic you imply.

I would say Jose Mourinho and Poch know a whole lot more about football than either of us. They both seem to massively rate Dier? I have never seen anyone chasing Henderson. Doubt they ever would, he is so average.

I really do believe the stats you mention are utterly pointless. I am certain I could find stats on various players to skew an opinion, but sadly I do not have as much time on my hands as you do to continually forge an argument.

Football is a game of opinions - always will be.

On the other hand, there are 'lies, damned lies and statistics".

 

[Derp]

Winks is a good player with huge potential, but he also has a lot to learn. I thought that he had a poor game against Bournemouth and it showed what he needs to work on to become a regular starter. It became a bit too safe and slow with Winks, Dier, Toby and Sanchez and Poch had to change formation to get Eriksen deeper to up the tempo. Winks was a bit invisible in the second half and we looked a lot better.

I would like to see Winks learn from Eriksen(and a bit from Sissoko ). I think that Winks can learn to dictacte the tempo luch better and add vertical movement and passing to his game. That run from deep from Eriksen when he scored is exactly those kind of runs Winks need to add to his game. It’s very difficult to open up teams that park the bus with two modfielders that aren’t a threat at all. It’s a good opportunity to get forward when Eriksen comes deep and it opens up some faster one touch/one-two passing.

Winks can definitely be a regular starter if he can develop his offensive game.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I am not a big fan of either player. I respect the research you put in, but I will never agree with this stats based logic you imply.

I would say Jose Mourinho and Poch know a whole lot more about football than either of us. They both seem to massively rate Dier? I have never seen anyone chasing Henderson. Doubt they ever would, he is so average.

I really do believe the stats you mention are utterly pointless. I am certain I could find stats on various players to skew an opinion, but sadly I do not have as much time on my hands as you do to continually forge an argument.

Football is a game of opinions - always will be.

On the other hand, there are 'lies, damned lies and statistics".

You mean the Poch that also signed off on paying 30m for Sissoko ? Yeah, there's no chance his judgement could in any way be fallible. Apparently Alex Ferguson discussed the idea of signing Henderson for ManU but was worried the way he ran exposed him to risk of injury. I shit you not, google it.

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...nderson-discusses-sir-alex-fergusons-comments

This is not stats based logic. It is just not Spurs biased logic. This is opinion based logic that was based on my 50 years playing and watching football, watching both players and the circumstances we were discussing at the time, I just threw the stats in to back it up.

I mean seriously, how anyone could watch the games Dier has played for England recently and argue he'd improve their play is baffling, he and they have been fucking atrocious.

 

[mill]

You mean the Poch that also signed off on paying 30m for Sissoko ? Yeah, there's no chance his judgement could in any way be fallible. Apparently Alex Ferguson discussed the idea of signing Henderson for ManU but was worried the way he ran exposed him to risk of injury. I shit you not, google it.

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...nderson-discusses-sir-alex-fergusons-comments

This is not stats based logic. It is just not Spurs biased logic. This is opinion based logic that was based on my 50 years playing and watching football, watching both players and the circumstances we were discussing at the time, I just threw the stats in to back it up.

I mean seriously, how anyone could watch the games Dier has played for England recently and argue he'd improve their play is baffling, he and they have been fucking atrocious.

The same ferigie that signed djemba-djemba?

 

[Trix]

You mean the Poch that also signed off on paying 30m for Sissoko ? Yeah, there's no chance his judgement could in any way be fallible. Apparently Alex Ferguson discussed the idea of signing Henderson for ManU but was worried the way he ran exposed him to risk of injury. I shit you not, google it.

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...nderson-discusses-sir-alex-fergusons-comments

This is not stats based logic. It is just not Spurs biased logic. This is opinion based logic that was based on my 50 years playing and watching football, watching both players and the circumstances we were discussing at the time, I just threw the stats in to back it up.

I mean seriously, how anyone could watch the games Dier has played for England recently and argue he'd improve their play is baffling, he and they have been fucking atrocious.

Fergie signed plenty of dud's in his time too. No manger gets it right all the time.