Harry Winks - Leicester City

[mpickard2087]

Think the difference is how frail we’ve become in defense as a unit. Our fullbacks are no longer a strength and a defensive midfielder could allow for more creative players (Eriksen, Lo Celso, Ndombele) the freedom to make things happen but also provide a better foundation and cover for the aforementioned defensive frailties but dropping in to defend as needed.

As I have kept saying in recent months/a year now, to fix the defence you start at the front. We're a team that holds a high line (and presumably still wants to press) and so if the initial players are not doing what they should then everyone behind them is then under massive pressure and we get what we have been seeing - wide open and oppositions playing through us too easily.

We can argue about putting in a defensive midfielder but as I said in my previous post we saw that at the end of the season and they too just got killed and whoever plays there it will keep happening. What needs sorting above all else in the defensive aspect is the attacking quartet.

 

[dtxspurs]

Definitely a good player, but he’s part of the problem for me at the moment. There’s no point having a deep lying metronome who’s primary concern is to retain possession when the opposition are camped on the edge of their own box for 90 minutes.

Here's the issue though, how many games are we actually going to need that type of player? City, Pool, Chelsea, ManU, Arsenal and maybe Leicester we'll want a more defensive player next to Ndombele. For all the others he can't break a team down so whats the point? Cause basically every other team in the league is going to park the bus against us. And even in games against teams parking the bus I like Dier because our fullbacks can push super high and we wont get caught on the break.

 

[Deleted member 29446]

I respect your opinion, but I feel he is a player who excels at nothing. He doesn’t get into my first 11. Squad player and that’s it. Big mistake by Poch making him his first pick in there.

100% agree.

Got slagged a few pages back for having that opinion, see where we are now.

He's not good at anything besides playing under high pressure and make little runs with the ball. Not good enough for a CM in an title-challenging-side. Squad player for me as well.

 

[thefierycamel]

Dier can lead the team, he can defend, he can stick a tackle and break up play, he can definitely pass sideway, I've seen him play some decent long balls, he can play 3 positions reasonably well, and he's a threat from set pieces. What does winks do at the moment that's anywhere near comparable to that? At the moment, winks is halfway between a 6 and an 8 and that isn't a good thing. Play Dier centrally in a midfield 3 with two creative players either side of him, and let him do his job. We need defensive protection in midfield as much as anything at the moment. All Dier needs to do is get the ball either side of him, then his role is done. Playing him in a midfield 2 doesn't suit him either, because he then tends to favour one side, he absolutely needs to be in the middle of the park.

 

[CockFlavour]

Best player in the league playing it undramatically sideways since Allen and Poulsen in Liverpool.

 

[onthetwo]

I think its too easy to blame him for not hitting Hoddle-esque forward passes than the forwards for not making any runs i.e when theyre static hes generally left with no option than to play it sideways. I hope the plan is to have LoC and Ndoms in front of him or whoever Poch trusts to play the DM anchor role. Roll on Sunday (and the hope that the bitter taste in my mouth goes away soon!)

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I think its too easy to blame him for not hitting Hoddle-esque forward passes than the forwards for not making any runs i.e when theyre static hes generally left with no option than to play it sideways. I hope the plan is to have LoC and Ndoms in front of him or whoever Poch trusts to play the DM anchor role. Roll on Sunday (and the hope that the bitter taste in my mouth goes away soon!)

Thing is that it’s not his role to play risky forward passes. He’s the deepest lying midfielder who’s job it is to transition the ball from the defensive third through the midfield. If he loses it he immediately puts us under pressure. If he was playing next to a recognised DM then I could understand the cristicism of his perceived conservatism, but he’s not.

It’s actually laughable that Dier is now being put forward as some heir to busquets when this time last year he was nominated scapegoat.

This place is fucking dementing after a defeat.

 

[Deleted member 29446]

Best player in the league playing it undramatically sideways since Allen and Poulsen in Liverpool.

Atleast Poulsen was a true DM.

 

[Gassin's finest]

He was frustrating though. No more than anyone else, but that doesn't alleviate how ineffective he was.

 

[JimmyG2]

Like the boy
thought he played OK
given the generally poor team dynamic.
Little movement and so on.
He always wanted the ball
and was available and busy
Didn't give away possession.
He's no Eriksen or Modric yet
and never will be, yes I know
I hear you
but after injury is progressing well.
When those ahead make themselves more visible
he will prosper.

 

[gavspur]

I like Winks, but he’s not right for the holding DM role.. He needs one of those behind him. Dier can come in to our side and sit, and protect, with any of Winks/Ndombele/Sissoko/LoCelso/Eriksen/Dele ahead of him in a two.

 

[onthetwo]

Thing is that it’s not his role to play risky forward passes. He’s the deepest lying midfielder who’s job it is to transition the ball from the defensive third through the midfield. If he loses it he immediately puts us under pressure. If he was playing next to a recognised DM then I could understand the cristicism of his perceived conservatism, but he’s not.

It’s actually laughable that Dier is now being put forward as some heir to busquets when this time last year he was nominated scapegoat.

This place is fucking dementing after a defeat.

i disagree re his role as every time i watch him he naturally looks up and ahead for a runner and will hit a long pass (id guess 1 in 5 times) if someone is moving into space. If that werent his role then im sure Poch would prefer a more traditional DM in the Dier/Wanyama mold but hes showed a clear preference for Winks when fit.

 

[rio bryan]

i disagree re his role as every time i watch him he naturally looks up and ahead for a runner and will hit a long pass (id guess 1 in 5 times) if someone is moving into space. If that werent his role then im sure Poch would prefer a more traditional DM in the Dier/Wanyama mold but hes showed a clear preference for Winks when fit.

He has also taken him off against Villa, City and Newcastle (if it wasn't for LWP getting injured) so if he's the one we remove to make way for a more creative player why bother starting him in the first place ?

 

[Syn_13]

He's a good kid, but this year is make or break for me.

He's a tidy player who is good at keeping the ball moving in transition between different areas of the pitch. Unfortunately, I think it's part of what makes us slow and turgid. He's not got many options ahead as our forward movement is pretty poor and he's not creative enough to try and carve out openings. Eriksen is the only one who seems capable of that. You see flashes of it sometimes from Lamela, and Ndombele has shown it once or twice since joining. Not sure if Winks is going to provide that.

I'm more inclined to say we need a proper DM to sit and break up play. Do what Fernandinho did for City these last few years, be the bully in the middle. I know City are leagues ahead of us in terms of quality but the way they set up is admirable. They have one DM flanked by 2 industrious, but creative midfielders in De Bruyne and Silva. Eriksen isn't the most industrious but he does cover ground and is the most creative player we have.

Against the weaker teams we shouldn't be playing Winks and Sissoko, as they offer nothing going forward together. As soon as we pulled Sissoko back to right back and brought on Eriksen we better. It was too late, but it was when our chances started to come.

Perhaps we need to be less risk averse against these sides. Dier has had injury and fitness issues, as well as form, and Wanyama is crocked. However, with Dier back in fitness we should give it a go. When Ndombele is back put him and Eriksen in front of Dier. Ndombele can provide a bit of both in terms of physicality and looking to drive the ball forward. Perhaps we could recreate the times when Dier, Dembele and Eriksen were bossing the midfield a few years back. Lo Celso can rotate into that, plus we'd have Son, Moura and Alli to play in those forward positions alongside Kane.

Not bad options, to be fair. I kind of feel the holding midfield is the key. I just don't think it's Winks. He can be a part of that midfield for certain games, but not in that holding position.

 

[Trotter]

Thing is that it’s not his role to play risky forward passes. He’s the deepest lying midfielder who’s job it is to transition the ball from the defensive third through the midfield. If he loses it he immediately puts us under pressure. If he was playing next to a recognised DM then I could understand the cristicism of his perceived conservatism, but he’s not.

It’s actually laughable that Dier is now being put forward as some heir to busquets when this time last year he was nominated scapegoat.

This place is fucking dementing after a defeat.

Well if that is his role, he is failing dramatically in it then, as he is not playing it through defence to midfield, he is playing it from defence to defence and nothing else, and has done for a long time.
I can fully accept Dier instead of Winks in that position, as at least he gives us more defensive solidity.
At the moment WInks is adding nothing attacking, nothing defensively and arguably is hurting us as his style of play at the moment is just slowing us down so much that it allows the opposition to regroup.
So to at least try and solidify our defense, at the expense of well, nothing really, seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[razzmaster]

Winks is not a DM so instead of criticising him for not playing that role well, it is Poch who should be getting slated for playing him out of position. He can do a job there but it does not suit him. Put him in a midfield 3 with a true dm and he will flourish. If he doesn't then the criticism would be justified but play any player out of position and they will struggle to play well consistently. Much like KWP I will cut Winks some slack as he is Spurs through and through but if he plays badly in his preferred position then he can have no complaints if he gets dropped.

 

[gavspur]

Of you look at Pep’s Barca side, they had 3 in midfield - Busquets at the base, Xavi and Iniesta ahead. Now I’m not comparing our players to those three at all, but we certainly do have the players to make that midfield 3 work.. Dier (or Wanyama/Skipp) at the base and any number of players to fill the other two roles.. Winks is certainly less like the base player, but could fill one of the other roles to which suits his style.. I just think Poch is making this all very difficult at the moment by insisting on strange decisions position by position.

Jose, for example, I’m pretty sure would be playing Dier at the base of that midfield. No nonsense, sit there and break up play, dropping into a back three when we bomb forward. We have the players for 4-3-3, but we’re just not utilising whom we have in their better positions. It’s all so strange.

 

[Timberwolf]

Thing is that it’s not his role to play risky forward passes. He’s the deepest lying midfielder who’s job it is to transition the ball from the defensive third through the midfield. If he loses it he immediately puts us under pressure. If he was playing next to a recognised DM then I could understand the cristicism of his perceived conservatism, but he’s not.

It’s actually laughable that Dier is now being put forward as some heir to busquets when this time last year he was nominated scapegoat.

This place is fucking dementing after a defeat.

I don't think any of us are under the illusion that Dier is the second coming - he's flawed in many ways - it's more that he's the only purely defensive-minded midfielder we have left (assuming Wanyama is finished/gone). With Winks and Sissoko as a pairing we look particularly vulnerable as neither is great defensively, nor good in the air.

Dier wouldn't single handedly fix our defensive woes - they run much deeper as outlined above by @mpickard2087 - but if we had a defensive-minded sitter like Dier it would at least allow Ndombele to break forward with a bit more freedom while still give our defence some degree of protection. 2 conservative passers who aren't great defensively is a pretty bad combo all round, whereas at least Dier and Dembele provided a stable defensive base for our attackers to build from with some added thrust going forward. I don't see why Dier and Ndombele couldn't do the same.

In future hopefully Skipp can step up and take over the DM role as he's mobile, tenacious and a more incisive, progressive passer than any of Winks, Sissoko and Dier. If we don't think he's capable then we should really look at signing someone ASAP. Or actually start pressing and defending as a team like we used to.

 

[Primativ]

I don't think any of us are under the illusion that Dier is the second coming - he's flawed in many ways - it's more that he's the only purely defensive-minded midfielder we have left (assuming Wanyama is finished/gone). With Winks and Sissoko as a pairing we look particularly vulnerable as neither is great defensively, nor good in the air.

Dier wouldn't single handedly fix our defensive woes - they run much deeper as outlined above by @mpickard2087 - but if we had a defensive-minded sitter like Dier it would at least allow Ndombele to break forward with a bit more freedom while still give our defence some degree of protection.

In future hopefully Skipp can step up and take over the DM role as he's mobile, tenacious and a more incisive, progressive passer than any of Winks, Sissoko and Dier. If we don't think he's capable then we should really look at signing someone ASAP. Or actually start pressing and defending as a team like we used to.

Spot on. The worrying thing is, is Poch going to notice it and make changes? I have a feeling he will be totally intransigent about Winks and it will be to the teams detriment.

I know people will say I am picking on Winks, but that is because it is such a crucial area of the pitch. The rest of the team more or less picks itself, it has to be Ndombele in CM with a DM behind him. That DM has to be Dier. I am far from Dier's biggest fan but he is the only pure DM in the squad. He will provide Tanguy with some license to get forward. That said, Dier last season was woeful and played with no urgency.

Again you have to ask questions of Poch, why so many of our players have regressed performance wise over the last 12 - 18 months.

 

[Timberwolf]

Spot on. The worrying thing is, is Poch going to notice it and make changes? I have a feeling he will be totally intransigent about Winks and it will be to the teams detriment.

I know people will say I am picking on Winks, but that is because it is such a crucial area of the pitch. The rest of the team more or less picks itself, it has to be Ndombele in CM with a DM behind him. That DM has to be Dier. I am far from Dier's biggest fan but he is the only pure DM in the squad. He will provide Tanguy with some license to get with no urgency.

Again you have to ask questions of Poch, why so many of our players have regressed performance wise over the last 12 - 18 months.

Yeah - it's no coincidence that almost every single team in world football has at least 1 defensive midfielder in the team. Even Man City, who absolutely dominate most teams, usually play with either Fernandinho or more recently Rodri in that role. When Fernandinho was missing they suddenly looked more shaky at the back and lost a few games.

If Man City, who are far better than us, can't get away with it, what makes Poch think we can?

I suppose Poch thinks the extra central presence provided by the diamond gives us enough defensive cover to negate the need for a pure DM, but as we all know the formation just creates a shitload of other problems: lack of width, congested/narrow forward play, etc. while still leaving us pretty vulnerable at the back.