Hillsborough e-petition

[spud]

It saddens me to say this, arthurgrimsdell, but your post is one of the most shameful contributions to any forum that I have ever had the misfortune to read. Your opinions, given authoritatively, are almost entirely wrong, and I will point out some of these errors. I hope that your views stem from ignorance rather than prejudice, although your comment about 'professional Liverpudlians' makes me doubt that.

It soon became apparent that the cause of the problem in 1981 was too many people wanting to stand directly behind the goal, when there was space to the side. Luckily this was before fans were caged in because of persistent misbehaviour, so it was relatively easy for fans to be moved.

First, a failure of observation. I was in the side pen of Leppings Lane in '81 (the right side as you would have looked) and we were crushed. My then girlfriend was near frantic with fear, and we were lucky that a policeman took pity on her and opened a gate.

Remember there are similarities to the Heysel tragedy in 1985...........and this was a major factor in fans having to be caged in....

On planet Earth, 1981 was before 1985, and we were caged in 1981. So epic fail here.

It is an inescapable fact that the crush involved in the Hillsborough disaster was caused by Liverpool fans trying to get the best view directly behind the goal, arriving late and pushing down on already packed in Liverpool supporters in front of and below them. There was space to both sides but the fans concerned were only interested in going directly behind the goal.

It is nothing of the kind. The gate that was opened was directly in front of the passageway that led to the middle of the terrace. There was no indication that fans could go anywhere else. They had no choice.

The situation was undoubtedly exacerbated by the police opening one gate around kick off time....... the reason the police did this was because a crush was developing outside the ground and they wrongly thought this was the best way to alleviate it.

A main reason why there was a crowd outside the gate was that the police were conducting individual 'pat-down' searches with insufficient numbers to complete them quickly. There was also no 'outer cordon' preventing fans going right to the entrance - as had been recommended following the previous season's game.

.....it needs to be borne in mind that this all occurred at a time when football hooliganism was a national curse, and the police could be forgiven for initially misreading the situation as a fight.

Possibly, if it were not for the facts that the police control room had an unobstructed view of the Leppings Lane terrace, and also had cameras with live feed trained on it. You probably think it a coincidence that the footage for about 30 minutes from 2:30 vanished.

And of course there are a great number of gullible people who are willing to unquestioningly support a cause celebre like this without thinking or analysing what went wrong, which was basically very simple. Being able to read all the correspondence that went on at the time will not add a jot to what we already know and need to know: People pushed other people against a wall so they could get a better view themselves.

You would do well to acquiant yourself with some of the facts, rather than spouting this rubbish. Then you will see that 'gullibility' is not the primary characteristic of those wanting the truth to be told - and reported.

But the crush was caused by reckless, selfish Liverpool supporters pushing down against sensible and unselfish Liverpool supporters who had made sure they had arrived in time to get a good view. The latter were the poor souls who were injured, and in far, far too many cases died.

This is probably the most disgusting, ill-informed, bigoted crap that I have ever read. And, it goes without saying, inaccurate, as many of the victims were among those who - according to you - were late-comers 'pushing down' on the others. A few minutes cursory research on the subject would have revealed this to you.

I feel grubby being associated as a fellow Spurs fan with somebody who would write this.

I won't be signing the petition.

Good. It is better without your endorsement.

 

[mattyspurs]

Excellent post Spud

 

[Azazello]

Signed.

Apart from wanting to see justice for the people affected by this, it angers me that all government matters (except security) are not routinely available for public scrutiny. They serve us, not vice versa.

 

[Wellspurs]

The subtext of this song I’ve thought about it for so long
But it’s really not the sort of thing that people want to hear us sing
The context of this song well I could go on and on
But it’s still unfashionable to believe in principles
South South Yorkshire – Mass Murderer
How can you sleep at night, sleep at night
South South Yorkshire – Mass Murderer
How can you sleep at night, sleep at night
The reason for this song well it may be a pointless one
But thank you Jimmy McGovern for reminding me of what lives on
The ending for this song well I haven’t really thought of one
There’s nothing I could ever say that could really take the pain away
South South Yorkshire – Mass Murderer
How can you sleep at night, sleep at night
South South Yorkshire – Mass Murderer
How can you sleep at night, sleep at night
Manic Street Preachers

The words of Nicky Wire a manic Spurs fan from the Manics. The song "South Yorkshire Mass Murderers"

 

[nidge]

I believe all the documents should be released in there unredacted form because it is the right thing to do and that the families deserve to know what the Establishment were doing and thinking during the crisis although I doubt that if a 'cover-up' has taken place that any documents relating to it actually exist.

What concerns me is this call for justice that many are calling for. Who exactly is going to be brought to justice in this case?

 

[mill]

i was there that day & was led along the side of the pitch to the kop end because of the crush from too many fans packed into one small standing area!!.. a gap had been made up one side of the kop end to accomodate the overspill of spurs fans .. neverthe less it went off with the wolves fans.
i was no angel at the time at football & willingly fought with the wolves fans for basically the whole game... for once though it was for mine & other spurs fans protection as south yorkshire police did nothing but let wolves fans attack us thrioughout..
the stadium & authourities where totally unprepared that day & never learnt a thing from it & the results 6 years later prove it.
willingly signed although i feel its far to late.

I hope you're willing to accept your portion of the blame as well then, for it was idiots such as yourself going to football and fighting that created the need for fences to be erected. It's no good just blaming the police and goverment, no doubt they made massive mistakes, but all the hooligans created the penned in culture are all in part to blame

 

[Wellspurs]

I reckon it will be like Watergate, ok mistakes happened but the government of the day definitely covered up evidence and looked for scapegoats.

 

[spud]

But it wasnt. We behaved better than the animals from the cesspit of the country.

I doubt that you were at either incident, so you don't know what happened. You have no idea how we behaved in 1981. I can tell you from experience that the only reason why Spurs fans were not killed in 1981 was that the police opened the gates and let us around the pitch. If we had died, we would have been portrayed as guilty in the same way that Liverpool fans have.

You may have had a bad experience of scousers; so have I. It doesn't mean that they, and they alone, were responsible for 96 deaths in 1989. They weren't, and you do yourself a disservice by saying otherwise.

 

[spud]

I have replied to a few ill-informed and/or bigoted posts on this thread, and would like to aim a comment at all those who think that there is no point to the petition and its possible consequences.

The killing of ninety-six people at Hillsborough, and its subsequent cover-up, are together possibly the greatest domestic scandal in twentieth century Britain. Even if no action is taken afterwards, the truth should be told for its own sake. Revealing the truth is the end in itself. Any subsequent consequences are a bonus.

 

[tototoner]

excellent posts spud

 

[Jay The Yid]

I doubt that you were at either incident, so you don't know what happened. You have no idea how we behaved in 1981. I can tell you from experience that the only reason why Spurs fans were not killed in 1981 was that the police opened the gates and let us around the pitch. If we had died, we would have been portrayed as guilty in the same way that Liverpool fans have.

You may have had a bad experience of scousers; so have I. It doesn't mean that they, and they alone, were responsible for 96 deaths in 1989. They weren't, and you do yourself a disservice by saying otherwise.

Yes you are right. I have had very bad experiences in my lifetime of the lovely scousers.

and I stick to what I said about them. Scum of the earth.

 

[class of 62]

I hope you're willing to accept your portion of the blame as well then, for it was idiots such as yourself going to football and fighting that created the need for fences to be erected. It's no good just blaming the police and goverment, no doubt they made massive mistakes, but all the hooligans created the penned in culture are all in part to blame

hooliganism was part of the culture in those days mate!..much like wankers with glued hair & the arse of thier trousers round thier kness taking their girlfriends to football today! & i dare say you where not around at football in the late 70's & 80's just going to an away game with spurs was taking your life in your hands..unlike today !.. sometimes fighting was the only way out.
if you read my intial post again you'd see i has said i was fighting that day for my own & other spurs fans protection because of wyp & the authourities lack of it that day.
yes i was an idiot & as posted "no angel" along with 1,000 upon 1,000 of other so called fans at the time.
i'm sure your without sin throughout your life! this is not about me or what i did.

yes we all make mistakes including the police & goverment the problem here is the mistake has been covered up & the lifes of many family & relatives of the 96 has stood still for 22 years not knowing!!!!!.

 

[whatsappnin]

Signed

 

[tototoner]

some sources reporting all papers have just been released to Hillsborough commission ahead of today's debate

 

[Narnill]

On BBC website now.

 

[Real_madyidd]

So, now what?

I guess scousers will now be going through every page looking for any word that may show contempt or errors. They may conclude that some things were not written down.

One thing for certain, next step for some of the families is to try and cash in.

Just hope that some people get peace out of this, but I can't help be suspicious.

 

[JimmyG2]

So, now what?

I guess scousers will now be going through every page looking for any word that may show contempt or errors. They may conclude that some things were not written down.

One thing for certain, next step for some of the families is to try and cash in.

Just hope that some people get peace out of this, but I can't help be suspicious.

You are quite right to be suspicious.
How do we know that all the papers have been released?
Not by taking the word of 'I'm not making this up' Teresa May.

We'll see and it will probably go quite a way down the road
to satisfy the families but whether it's 'the truth, the whole truth'
there's no way of knowing.

 

[Real_madyidd]

You are quite right to be suspicious.
How do we know that all the papers have been released?
Not by taking the word of 'I'm not making this up' Teresa May.

We'll see and it will probably go quite a way down the road
to satisfy the families but whether it's 'the truth, the whole truth'
there's no way of knowing.

Indeed. Additionally you have to wonder if the trust was ever actually written down. If I had been part of an almighty fuck up I am not to sure that I would be eager to put anything in writing. The papers being released are all of the "government papers" - will that include first hand accounts from police and witnesses? I am not sure that the truth has yet been written, so may well not be there.

Still think this is a case of people being after compensation though. Not sure when I became such a pessimist!