Huddlestone swap for Adam Johnson

[diegooners]

I am not saying that we should get rid of him, he may yet come good. But Carrick was better than him and had been in England squads, at a similar age.

One of the differences between Hudd and Carrick is that Carrick was always known for his defensive abilities in that if all else failed he could at least defend and get stuck in. He is also a better athlete and is better in the air.

Also if you remember him at Spurs, and at Man u until very recently, he was always inconsistent and still is. He would dissappear for weeks on end a for us and does so at Man u, in fact he does so to such an extent that he has not even made the bench for England.

Ok have been reading your posts on this thread. Feel I must finally say something. Carrick was never, and I mean never, known for his defensive abilities. The main gripe on this board and for English football fans alike of Carrick was that he was a complete pansy to put it politely. Carrick was the defensive midfielder that did not tackle. He never once asserted his physical authority on a game. Not once.

Huddlestone is not so smiliar to Carrick, but they are not so very different either. Carrick is indeed more mobile than Huddlestone, but he can't shoot for shit, unlike Thudd, who strikes the ball more cleanly than anyone else in the squad.

Finally, we know that Zokora and Jenas simply do not work as a partnership, just like Keane and Defoe. We got dominated at home by so many teams last year with these two starting and it is because they are so similar. They are both exceptional athletes who do not create. Huddlestone, for all his floors, is an extremely creative midfield player. He does make angles too... you should watch a bit more closely.

I'm not trying to have a dig, but you seem reasonably ill informed on the subject really...

 

[Kendall]

I don't remember us getting dominated many times at home last year - infact the lane was a bit of a fortress. This year however....

 

[SpurSince57]

Ok have been reading your posts on this thread. Feel I must finally say something. Carrick was never, and I mean never, known for his defensive abilities. The main gripe on this board and for English football fans alike of Carrick was that he was a complete pansy to put it politely. Carrick was the defensive midfielder that did not tackle. He never once asserted his physical authority on a game. Not once.

Huddlestone is not so smiliar to Carrick, but they are not so very different either. Carrick is indeed more mobile than Huddlestone, but he can't shoot for shit, unlike Thudd, who strikes the ball more cleanly than anyone else in the squad.

Finally, we know that Zokora and Jenas simply do not work as a partnership, just like Keane and Defoe. We got dominated at home by so many teams last year with these two starting and it is because they are so similar. They are both exceptional athletes who do not create. Huddlestone, for all his floors, is an extremely creative midfield player. He does make angles too... you should watch a bit more closely.

I'm not trying to have a dig, but you seem reasonably ill informed on the subject really...

An odd statement, considering that in 2005-2006 he put in more tackles than any of our current midfielder has this season or last, Steed excepted.

If what you're trying to say is that he isn't an out-and-out DM destroyer type, well, yes, fine. If you're saying that in 2005-2006 the opposition recognised that if you could isolate Carrick you could negate our creativity, that's true also. But to say he can't tackle, and that he's a 'complete pansy'… Well, really.

 

[SpurSince57]

I don't remember us getting dominated many times at home last year - infact the lane was a bit of a fortress. This year however....

Less a matter of us getting dominated, more us failing to dominate. We've probably had the lion's share of possession in the majority of games this season and last.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But what do you want him to be mobile enough to do?

Our most mobile player is Zokora and compare the amount of tackles they make, interceptions they make, passes the make, clearances etc.

I think Zokora is possibly the most athletic CM in Europe, so you'd think given his ability to get around the pitch he'd make more tackles than anyone and given his position he'd pass and recieve the ball more than anyone. Yet the Hudd has made 79 tackles compared to Zokora's 68. He's done this when playing just 1895 mins of Prem football compared to Zokora's 2164. As for passes he's made 1130 compared to 1137, which when you consider he has played 2.5 games less, it shows how much more he gets on the ball. When you add to that his 7 assists and 3 goals, compared to Zokora's zero goals and assists, it again shows he's doing quite alot more good than more mobile players.

I think that people are so aware of the Hudd's lack of mobility that they sub conciously look out for evidence of it. Everytime they see it being evident they make a mental note of it, but by doing this naturally fail to compare how his lack of mobility is effecting his performance compared to his peers. I don't think just fans do this, but also the coaching staff. i really think the mobility issue has clouded everyone's judgement of the Hudd. Look how poor we were when he went off on Saturday. The more mobile players just weren't there to pass and move the ball around with the efficiency and the quality of the Hudd. In the end Reading got a foot hold inthe game and we could have easily thrown 2 pts away. I personally think fans, coach's and the media really over play the lack of mobility card. I'm not saying it isn't an issue or that it doesn't effect his game, but that he is still getting through the worh of many more mobile players.

This is another one of our old battlegrounds Joey isn't it. I don't dislike Huddlestone and I'll try not to get too long winded becasue we have been here before several times.
You quoted the passing stats so I'll just add some. Huddlestone's completion rate is 73%, Zokora's 86%. You will tell me Huddlestone attempts more difficult passes and you are probably right but the fact remains his decision making is often poor - but he is young. I would say exactly the same thing about Zokora as you would Huddlestone when it comes to tackles. Zokora has often been the one mopping up danger or making that vital last ditch tackle. Zokora's speed across the ground gets him to situations that need a desperate intervention that Huddlestones pace and bargelike turning circle never will and also sees him intercepting more than Huddlestone too. But they are diferent players for me - it was you who chose to compare him to Zokora. Ignoring the stats completely there's something else I have noticed often. When we play tough,quick sides the game seem to flow around huddlestone. And because of his poor mobility he is very easy to sit on and stop. And even if he improved his consistancy teams are always going to be able to stop him quite easily because of this. Even if we stuck him next to a wc dcm to do the hard graft (which would certainly be the only way you could consider playing him in a successful 442).His only hope for me is in a midfield 5, but even then you have to ask yourself how would we have to play to realy get the best out him. I've never really watched a single game of Huddlestones and been blown away. And I like quality fotballers - and he has passing quality. The premiership is possibly the quickest, highest tempo major league and unfortunately for Huddlestone there are very few players - no matter how technically gifted - that can get away with being a bit cumbersome.

 

[SpurSince57]

The premiership is possibly the quickest, highest tempo major league and unfortunately for Huddlestone there are very few players - no matter how technically gifted - that can get away with being a bit cumbersome.

No possibly about it. It is.

Is it a coincidence that whenever Huddlestone has played in European games over the last two seasons, he's looked pretty impressive? I think not.

For all his qualities and potential, I'm struggling to see Huddlestone succeeding in anything but a 4-5-1, and I can't see Ramos employing that formation any more than Jol. So, do we effectively cut our losses?

The only problems I have with this are: a) do we really want Johnson?; b) the valuation—on a day when Rafa has said he'll be looking for £15m for the Flying Lamp-post, isn't £4m for the Hudd undervaluing him a tad?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

In a bazar way the only two positions I could really see Huddlestone playing are as a sweeper or a kind of number 10. The number 10 thing sounds a bit crazy but they are both positions where pace isn't really much of an issue. Again unfortunately for Huddlestone I don't think he's quite good enough for a 10 and nobody plays a sweeper anymore.

 

[guy]

Nice stats there from joey!!

Proves to me zokora is never going to be able to control/lead a MF when he is out-everything'd by a 21 yr old "slow inexperienced MF".

Id keep Hudd and Zokora but neither of them are good enough to be a first choice CM. hudd has the potential to turn into one but zokora just doesnt have the footballing brain and is nothing more than a good squad player!

 

[soup]

There are plenty of occasions where you'll find Huddlestone getting into forward positions, usually with the faithful shouting 'shooooooot' whenever he does, as we all know, so although slightly cumbersome it's more a rocket up his arse that he needs.

I rate him very highly too, he's the kind of player I love to watch, but the trouble with Huddlestone is that his game is spraying the ball around and he does it so well that he limits himself as he relies on that as his contribution.

A player like Huddlestone doesn't need electrifying pace to be effective, if he used his strength more and a bit of momentum on the run he be pretty darn effective bursting through the middle in my opinion. You might not be able to teach Hudds passing skills to players that are more mobile, but you can definitely teach Hudd to put his head down, charge, and smash up some centre backs once in a while.

It's a terrible comparison to make, but, to me, he has the bad qualities of Heskey about him in the way he just doesn't really go for it enough, when if he really got stuck in he'd be an absolute monster.

I'd hate for us to sell him, he just seems to have a class about him that you don't see in many British players. If Ramos does manage to put less ketchup and a bit more grit into the lad then I think we could see a real midfield leader emerge over the next couple of seasons.

 

[KeaneIsKeane]

I really am curious on if Ramos plans to keep the 4-4-2. It would help my judgment on certain players, but in our current 4-4-2 I really don't think he's good enough to start for a Top 6 team consistently. If we switched to the 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1 my opinion on Huddlestone would be different, but in matches where we don't see possession as much, I feel like he struggles to have an impact on the game. I watch Zokora, I used to not always rate him, but his passing seems to be more consistent and his work rate to cover for our full-backs who love to get up the pitch is great.

 

[diegooners]

An odd statement, considering that in 2005-2006 he put in more tackles than any of our current midfielder has this season or last, Steed excepted.

If what you're trying to say is that he isn't an out-and-out DM destroyer type, well, yes, fine. If you're saying that in 2005-2006 the opposition recognised that if you could isolate Carrick you could negate our creativity, that's true also. But to say he can't tackle, and that he's a 'complete pansy'… Well, really.

Carrick was, and still is to a lesser extent, a pansy. The reason he never plays for England is because he lacks the shooting ability to play in a forward role effectively, or the tackling ability to play the holding role. Yes you may say look at the stats, but with Davids out on the wing, and Jenas also consistently out on the right due to Lennon's injury, its not so very hard to understand. Couple that to the fact he was the focal point of the team so all play was centered around him and thus, most conflict.
I was merely calling up Walworth on his statement that Carrick was always known for his defensive abilities. This is untrue, Carrick has never, and will never, resemble any type of "midfield enforcer" if you will.

 

[WhiteHart4Ever]

But what do you want him to be mobile enough to do?

Our most mobile player is Zokora and compare the amount of tackles they make, interceptions they make, passes the make, clearances etc.

I think Zokora is possibly the most athletic CM in Europe, so you'd think given his ability to get around the pitch he'd make more tackles than anyone and given his position he'd pass and recieve the ball more than anyone. Yet the Hudd has made 79 tackles compared to Zokora's 68. He's done this when playing just 1895 mins of Prem football compared to Zokora's 2164. As for passes he's made 1130 compared to 1137, which when you consider he has played 2.5 games less, it shows how much more he gets on the ball. When you add to that his 7 assists and 3 goals, compared to Zokora's zero goals and assists, it again shows he's doing quite alot more good than more mobile players.

I think that people are so aware of the Hudd's lack of mobility that they sub conciously look out for evidence of it. Everytime they see it being evident they make a mental note of it, but by doing this naturally fail to compare how his lack of mobility is effecting his performance compared to his peers. I don't think just fans do this, but also the coaching staff. i really think the mobility issue has clouded everyone's judgement of the Hudd. Look how poor we were when he went off on Saturday. The more mobile players just weren't there to pass and move the ball around with the efficiency and the quality of the Hudd. In the end Reading got a foot hold inthe game and we could have easily thrown 2 pts away. I personally think fans, coach's and the media really over play the lack of mobility card. I'm not saying it isn't an issue or that it doesn't effect his game, but that he is still getting through the worh of many more mobile players.

7 assists and 3 goals? That is not too bad, actually rather good! I have always rated Huddlestone, as he is an excellent passer of the ball, and at his best our best midfielder. I do, however, have some problems with his inconsistency, and his pace..Guess we will have to wait and see what Ramos says, but I am absolutly 100 % certain that the Hudd will have a great career though maybe not in a top 4/5 club....

 

[walworthyid]

Ok have been reading your posts on this thread. Feel I must finally say something. Carrick was never, and I mean never, known for his defensive abilities. The main gripe on this board and for English football fans alike of Carrick was that he was a complete pansy to put it politely. Carrick was the defensive midfielder that did not tackle. He never once asserted his physical authority on a game. Not once.

Huddlestone is not so smiliar to Carrick, but they are not so very different either. Carrick is indeed more mobile than Huddlestone, but he can't shoot for shit, unlike Thudd, who strikes the ball more cleanly than anyone else in the squad.

Finally, we know that Zokora and Jenas simply do not work as a partnership, just like Keane and Defoe. We got dominated at home by so many teams last year with these two starting and it is because they are so similar. They are both exceptional athletes who do not create. Huddlestone, for all his floors, is an extremely creative midfield player. He does make angles too... you should watch a bit more closely.

I'm not trying to have a dig, but you seem reasonably ill informed on the subject really...

Really?

Carrick still isn't a physical presence in the midfield but he is a fantastic defensive midfielder, the problem was that in his later days at the spammers he had not yet learned to impose his passing ability on a game. Even when he came to us and would disappear as a creative force for game after game his defending was always superb. Hence, why since he left we actually create and score far more goals but also concede far more.

The problem is that there are loads of defensive mids who are not great passers or do not create, Carrick then became a player like loads of others, but with potential to be alot more than that.

We all have opinions but I can assure you that I am not ill-informed, I have watched almost every game we have played for 4 years. You say that Jenas and Zokora do not work and that neither player creates anything. I totally agree with this statement, but Hudd and nobody works. At home, against poorish opposition, with the odd exception, Hudd is a great player, for the other 40 odd games his weaknesses are all too clear to see. Cannot head, cannot run, no urgency or hunger, poor positioning, no pace, cannot join the attack and still fulfill his defensive responsibilities etc etc

It is a matter of opinion, but it appears that Jol and Ramos both share mine, Hudd has great talent, but his talents are so limited that we lose too much in other areas to justify shaping the team to benefit from them.

 

[double0]

First of all lets not make this a Zokora Bashing thread by comparing mobility and Assist. The original thread is about a swap between Johnson of Middlesbough and our Huddlestone.

It would IMO be a very bad move, Huddlestone has made alot of effort to reduce his weight and against Reading he showed an improvement on his mobility in midfield. I believe Huddlestone is a unique player with an array of passing skill not matched in our squad, who can comfortable play at Centre back and Central Midfield therefore is versatility towards the squad is paramount.

A Johnson I saw playing for England's U21's, he looks a good prospect (can't/hasn't broke into Boro first team) but we can do much better.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Meh. Swapping one ok player who'll never be good enough for the top four for another one. I suppose Johnson makes a bit more sense as we don't have many lefties whereas Hudd is simply one of our general parade of uselessness in central midfield.

Sell Hudd, don't get Johnson, buy someone good.

 

[stemark44]

In a bazar way the only two positions I could really see Huddlestone playing are as a sweeper or a kind of number 10. The number 10 thing sounds a bit crazy but they are both positions where pace isn't really much of an issue. Again unfortunately for Huddlestone I don't think he's quite good enough for a 10 and nobody plays a sweeper anymore.

I also think that Huddlestone could play further upfield as an attacking/creative playmaker and also as centre back (depending on the opposition)but the only system we could use is 4-2-3-1!
I would be happy to keep the likes of Huddlestone,Jenas and Zokora as they are more than useful players,they just need better players around them and Modric is a good start!
I have watched our midfielders when they are looking to make forward passes but the movement ahead on many occasions has been awful.Generally the only guy looking to make a run into space is Keano - Malbranque,Lennon and Berbatov just stand looking at them!
If our other players can stretch the defence and create space and time for Huddlestone - he can deliver killer passes and powerful shots from distance!

 

[si_yidarmy]

NO

If we get johnson, i will start asking questions.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Stemark44
The point about movement is a very good one and one I've made so many times in ratings threads etc. I'm sick of saying it. What we often get is good first half movement , keane lively Berbatov dropping off and then second half they just seem to down tools. The pair of them are a big reason our performances tail off second half. They can both usually be found a yard apart standing in the "D" with Keane pointing furiously at where he'd like the miracle pass threaded through the half dozen defenders between him and the player in possession.

 

[si_yidarmy]

then he gets in an irish piddle because we cannot pass properly

 

[yiddotilidie]

Carrick was, and still is to a lesser extent, a pansy. The reason he never plays for England is because he lacks the shooting ability to play in a forward role effectively, or the tackling ability to play the holding role. Yes you may say look at the stats, but with Davids out on the wing, and Jenas also consistently out on the right due to Lennon's injury, its not so very hard to understand. Couple that to the fact he was the focal point of the team so all play was centered around him and thus, most conflict.
I was merely calling up Walworth on his statement that Carrick was always known for his defensive abilities. This is untrue, Carrick has never, and will never, resemble any type of "midfield enforcer" if you will.

Theres two types mate. There are those that can read the game and pick up the pieces (Carrick, Makelele), and there are those that smash and grab (Keane, Gattuso etc).

For me, and since Carrick left us, we have never retained our shape or balance in midfield. I think he is one of the most underrated players in England. In todays game where so many teams adopt a 4-5-1 (4-3-3) formation, that role of collecting from the back four and starting play is so so important. But his ability to read the game creates a screen in front of the back four in a different way to how Keane for example would have done. At the same time, i think The Hudd is one of the most overrated players at spurs. His ability to pass is not in doubt, its the rest of his game.