Interesting article on Pochettino's tactics.

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Curious to here your views on the Stoke game. We only had 49% possession but we pressed and attacked at the right time, sometimes we sat deep and counterattacked with pace, we were like a boxer boxing clever.

Obviously we are known as a team that like possession and pressing but we really mixed it up effectively on that day.

Do you feel that we should do this more often and if Poch will become more pragmatic as times goes along or was that a bit of a one off?

Yes, without question! They couldn't live with us that day. People may say "it was only Stoke" , but they don't get totally torn to shit like that too often in their own manor. The 3-0 United game wasn't too dissimilar either if memory serves me correctly?

 

[TalkingTottenhamTactics]

Hey guys, appreciate all your thoughts and feedback on this piece of mine. When I get the chance I will attempt to address some of the individual critiques. Cheers

 

[steve]

Agree on dier and would like to see a witsel type come in especially in games we need to open up bus parkers. Dier IS limited with what he can do with the ball - of course defensively he's great and is a wonderful team player.

I think dembele isn't quite as ponderous as many make out and definitely is moving the ball quicker under poch - he also is best at taking it and not losing it under pressure.

I wonder about bentaleb...he's the one we want to see come in and be our Alonso but this season was a disaster for him in terms of playing games. I just hope he can force his way back into pochs plans. Winks is very talented too, hope he gets some game time...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Agree on dier and would like to see a witsel type come in especially in games we need to open up bus parkers. Dier IS limited with what he can do with the ball - of course defensively he's great and is a wonderful team player.

I think dembele isn't quite as ponderous as many make out and definitely is moving the ball quicker under poch - he also is best at taking it and not losing it under pressure.

I wonder about bentaleb...he's the one we want to see come in and be our Alonso but this season was a disaster for him in terms of playing games. I just hope he can force his way back into pochs plans. Winks is very talented too, hope he gets some game time...

My issue is less so much Dier and Dembele individually, it's more about those two together. As I said, I appreciate that with a careless bunch ahead of them, their risk aversion can and has been a blessing at times, but there are occasions when those two together is just too risk averse and also too reactive when we are having those phases in games when we lose control - often they are part of the problem of losing control, not the cure.

Dier also doesn't like to get himself too high up the pitch because he knows once turned he's struggling to get back at the bloke. He covers ground, but he's not quick over that first 10 yards. He's great in the tackle, but not always so great in the press for the same reasons.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

My issue is less so much Dier and Dembele individually, it's more about those two together. As I said, I appreciate that with a careless bunch ahead of them, their risk aversion can and has been a blessing at times, but there are occasions when those two together is just too risk averse and also too reactive when we are having those phases in games when we lose control - often they are part of the problem of losing control, not the cure.

Dier also doesn't like to get himself too high up the pitch because he knows once turned he's struggling to get back at the bloke. He covers ground, but he's not quick over that first 10 yards. He's great in the tackle, but not always so great in the press for the same reasons.

Who would you like to buy to cover/compete with Dier and Dembele?

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Who would you like to buy to cover/compete with Dier and Dembele?

Tielemans? Never seen the guy play, but I will eventually get an answer out of someone about how good he is.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Tielemans? Never seen the guy play, but I will eventually get an answer out of someone about how good he is.

he played against us twice this/last season, that said he must've been pretty unremarkable as i can't remember anything from his performances.

 

[tommyt]

Hey guys, appreciate all your thoughts and feedback on this piece of mine. When I get the chance I will attempt to address some of the individual critiques. Cheers

I like articles such as this which discusses tactics and appears quite unbiased.

I would be interested in your thought on Wimmer over Jan in regard to managing crosses, corners etc, also how you think Poch is going to integrate Nabil back into the squad and what role batman (if he signs )will play.

Interesting stuff for stimulating debate. Again, good article.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

he played against us twice this/last season, that said he must've been pretty unremarkable as i can't remember anything from his performances.

Cheers BG, that pretty much says it all I guess!

 

[steve]

My issue is less so much Dier and Dembele individually, it's more about those two together. As I said, I appreciate that with a careless bunch ahead of them, their risk aversion can and has been a blessing at times, but there are occasions when those two together is just too risk averse and also too reactive when we are having those phases in games when we lose control - often they are part of the problem of losing control, not the cure.

Dier also doesn't like to get himself too high up the pitch because he knows once turned he's struggling to get back at the bloke. He covers ground, but he's not quick over that first 10 yards. He's great in the tackle, but not always so great in the press for the same reasons.

I think we agree don't we? I accept what you say about dier, at the same time we must recognise that having the complete midfielder is unlikely anytime soon (or ever).

 

[Cravenspurs]

I think that's the problem, there are times when Dier shells back too far and stretches the game too much and we lose control of the game for spells for too long. I know it's heresy to criticise him or Dembele but I think both are flawed in different ways offensively (Dier doesn't operate well with the ball when under pressure and lacks vision and incision and Dembele moves the ball way too slowly), but their risk aversion means they expose themselves to less criticism because people don't see them make mistakes with the ball so often, and also, they have been far less exposed than our CM's of previous seasons by the hardest working front four in the EPL and a vastly improved back line, in terms of personnel (Toby/Vert) and discipline (both Walker and Rose have been improved defensively by Poch) over their calamitous previous seasons (especially walker).

You can't stand still as a football team. Leicester actually have CM's who get the ball into their forward players quicker and more incisively than we do. Kante made more key passes and created more chances than Dier, Drinkwater made more than Both Dier (double) and Dembele.

The cold hard truth for me is Dier has done a decent job, his and Dembele risk aversion balances of the carelessness of some of the forward players like Alli, Lamela, Kane, Son etc to a degree, but none of us watched ManU win a title with Phil Jones in CM and said what a wonderful midfielder he is and to me Dier does an almost identical job.

If we are really to advance as a team we have to have at least one CM who can move the ball quicker and more progressively, take the odd risk, whilst not being a total liability.

I completely agree and this is partially why I think the simple switch of Dembele and Alli pays dividends. I may be in the minority but the games Dele and Dier were paired together and Demebele was pressing up top, I thought we looked out most dangerous.

Is that the change? I am not the boss, but I completely agree in your risk aversion analysis.

Dier does lack the ability to turn under pressure and when pressed can squander possession. He plays a relatively safe game. Will it develop...I think so.

Dembele can wiggle out of any trap but makes little of the ball. He is a great stabilizer though.

A player like Gündoğan is what we are missing IMHO out in mid, but who do you drop?

 

[fatpiranha]

"raumdeuter"

I learned a new word .

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I completely agree and this is partially why I think the simple switch of Dembele and Alli pays dividends. I may be in the minority but the games Dele and Dier were paired together and Demebele was pressing up top, I thought we looked out most dangerous.

Is that the change? I am not the boss, but I completely agree in your risk aversion analysis.

Dier does lack the ability to turn under pressure and when pressed can squander possession. He plays a relatively safe game. Will it develop...I think so.

Dembele can wiggle out of any trap but makes little of the ball. He is a great stabilizer though.

A player like Gündoğan is what we are missing IMHO out in mid, but who do you drop?

I agree with a lot of that, like Dembele further forward and I mentioned Gundogan today in another thread. The only thing I don't quite agree with is having Alli in a CM2. I'd have Alli in a CM3 though.

 

[spurs9]

Leicester actually have CM's who get the ball into their forward players quicker and more incisively than we do. Kante made more key passes and created more chances than Dier, Drinkwater made more than Both Dier (double) and Dembele.

This is why stats without context are not only useless but misleading. Drinkwater and Kante play different roles on different systems than Dier and Dembele and it is a lot easier to create chances when your playing the ball forward into space on the counter (especially when you have fast hard working players in front of you), however we don't know that they would replicate those numbers if they had to play with 2 banks of four in front of them, closing them down quickly and having a box full of opposition defenders to try and find something to aim at.

I know you keep advocating for Bentaleb to be one of the 2 CMs, so lets compare Dier's stats this season to Bentalebs last season (when he was a regular). Bentaleb edge's chances created (0.66 vs .050 per 90), but Dier plays a higher % of passes forward (68% vs 62%).

 

[THOWIG]

So we require a player who can attack and defend, who controls the tempo of the game and passes forward.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is why stats without context are not only useless but misleading. Drinkwater and Kante play different roles on different systems than Dier and Dembele and it is a lot easier to create chances when your playing the ball forward into space on the counter (especially when you have fast hard working players in front of you), however we don't know that they would replicate those numbers if they had to play with 2 banks of four in front of them, closing them down quickly and having a box full of opposition defenders to try and find something to aim at.

I know you keep advocating for Bentaleb to be one of the 2 CMs, so lets compare Dier's stats this season to Bentalebs last season (when he was a regular). Bentaleb edge's chances created (0.66 vs .050 per 90), but Dier plays a higher % of passes forward (68% vs 62%).

You berate me for not contextualising stats (which is fair enough - I had already acknowledged they play a different tactical game) then you do exactly the same. The reason Dier's percentage is higher is because he sees less of the ball and makes less passes than Bentaleb, the percentage is absolutely meaningless unless you explain this because Dier could make 14 forwards passes out of 20 whilst Bentaleb could make 62 out of 100. What would you prefer ?

As it happens per 90 minutes on the pitch, Bentaleb makes more forward passes than Dier (39.63 to 38.42) makes more key passes (.57 to .44) (or 23% more in your money) and created more chances (.66 to .50).

 

[spurs9]

You berate me for not contextualising stats (which is fair enough - I had already acknowledged they play a different tactical game) then you do exactly the same. The reason Dier's percentage is higher is because he sees less of the ball and makes less passes than Bentaleb, the percentage is absolutely meaningless unless you explain this because Dier could make 14 forwards passes out of 20 whilst Bentaleb could make 62 out of 100. What would you prefer ?

As it happens per 90 minutes on the pitch, Bentaleb makes more forward passes than Dier (39.63 to 38.42) makes more key passes (.57 to .44) (or 23% more in your money) and created more chances (.66 to .50).

I didn't mention Dier being better than Bentaleb with the ball, I used the stats to emphasize my point about context, as I doubt may people would claim Dier was better with the ball than Bentaleb, yet stats show he plays the ball forward more when he does have it. Just like Bentaleb passing the ball more than Dier is meaningless as they have different roles (Dier drops back to create a CB3, meaning he is less involved in the build up play).

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I didn't mention Dier being better than Bentaleb with the ball, I used the stats to emphasize my point about context, as I doubt may people would claim Dier was better with the ball than Bentaleb, yet stats show he plays the ball forward more when he does have it. Just like Bentaleb passing the ball more than Dier is meaningless as they have different roles (Dier drops back to create a CB3, meaning he is less involved in the build up play).

The thing is, I have never advocated Bentaleb instead of Dier, I wouldn't play Bentaleb as a RCM, I would like to see Bentaleb (a LCM) played with Dier (a RCM) as I think they would have a better balance and blend. And Dembele passes the ball forwards 55% of his passes. So whichever way you want to call it Bentaleb passes the ball forwards more than the player who's place I would like him to take.

 

[spurs9]

The thing is, I have never advocated Bentaleb instead of Dier, I wouldn't play Bentaleb as a RCM, I would like to see Bentaleb (a LCM) played with Dier (a RCM) as I think they would have a better balance and blend. And Dembele passes the ball forwards 55% of his passes. So whichever way you want to call it Bentaleb passes the ball forwards more than the player who's place I would like him to take.

Fair enough, but at the same time he creates less chances than Dembele (1.11 vs .66), makes less key passes (1.07 vs 0.57), scores less goals (0.12 vs 0), loses the ball more and offers less in defence.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Fair enough, but at the same time he creates less chances than Dembele (1.11 vs .66), makes less key passes (1.07 vs 0.57), scores less goals (0.12 vs 0), loses the ball more and offers less in defence.

Again, you are not allowing for the fact that some of those stats for Dembele's creativity were amassed with him playing as an AM. Also that last year Bentaleb's role was less attacking than it could be played next to Dier. Also that our attacking players now work harder without and are far more productive with the ball than they were last season.

And I appreciate fully that Bentaleb is not as good defensively as Dembele - have never stated otherwise. But my point is that with a very defensively biased player in Dier, we need someone who will see more of the ball and move it quicker and more vertically than Dembele does. Bentaleb will do that.