Lack of diversity in the FA?

[dontcallme]

Not if it's contrived to be so by use of discrimination, no.

Seriously?

The police's role is to maintain law and order in the community. To do this they need the public's trust.

Too many sub-cultures have felt like they can't trust the police and instead of going to them take matters into their own hands or do nothing at all.

These sub-cultures need to feel like they can go to the police. There's lots of research showing how vital a multi-cultural police force is, especially somewhere as diverse as the UK.

But you'd rather a white guy who get 84 on a test gets the job over a guy who got 78 even if it's bad for the people they are supposed to be representing?

If we change the phrase positive discrimination to positive representation will this make it acceptable?

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Seriously?

The police's role is to maintain law and order in the community. To do this they need the public's trust.

Too many sub-cultures have felt like they can't trust the police and instead of going to them take matters into their own hands or do nothing at all.

These sub-cultures need to feel like they can go to the police. There's lots of research showing how vital a multi-cultural police force is, especially somewhere as diverse as the UK.

But you'd rather a white guy who get 84 on a test gets the job over a guy who got 78 even if it's bad for the people they are supposed to be representing?

If we change the phrase positive discrimination to positive representation will this make it acceptable?

Like I said, I don't care what adjective you put in front of it

Listen - I probably should not even be discussing this thread, it's probably too close to home, but my family are 'white Zimbabwean farmers' (you surely are aware of the broad situation there) & we had the work of 3 generations of our family taken from us at gunpoint in 2002 & were left practically destitute on the grounds of 'positive discrimination' (although they called it 'indiginisation')

So I am not likely to come around to a point of view which accepts such no matter how reasonable your arguments may be, because I have personally experienced the deep ugly side of it & I've seen and been a victim of where it can lead

 

[dontcallme]

Like I said, I don't care what adjective you put in front of it

Listen - I probably should not even be discussing this thread, it's probably too close to home, but my family are 'white Zimbabwean farmers' (you surely are aware of the broad situation there) & we had the work of 3 generations of our family taken from us at gunpoint in 2002 & were left practically destitute on the grounds of 'positive discrimination' (although they called it 'indiginisation')

So I am not likely to come around to a point of view which accepts such no matter how reasonable your arguments may be, because I have personally experienced the deep ugly side of it & I've seen and been a victim of where it can lead

Fair points and I accept that others have had different experiences to myself.

I think I'm guilty now of moving this thread away from diversity in the FA to diversity in general so will bow out from this thread.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Fair points and I accept that others have had different experiences to myself.

I think I'm guilty now of moving this thread away from diversity in the FA to diversity in general so will bow out from this thread.

Well i'm guilty of that too, so me too ... like i said, i probably shouldn't be sniffing around such discussions anyway given my personal experiences which undoubtedly warp my reason! And the example i use is extreme as extreme can be in the context, and nothing like the FA discussion. But it eventually has parallels unchecked

 

[WalkerboyUK]

I think we're entering a very dangerous period in general regarding racism and equality.
My parents went to South Africa recently and were astounded to see how racial equality is approached there.
It's now a legal requirement that a certain percentage of a company's workforce is black, regardless of whether they are qualified for the job or not. The result is that either companies don't have adequate staff or they end up employed extra people who are qualified, just to see them through.
Can see it ending up that way here if we're not careful..........

 

[Geyzer Soze]

I think we're entering a very dangerous period in general regarding racism and equality.
My parents went to South Africa recently and were astounded to see how racial equality is approached there.
It's now a legal requirement that a certain percentage of a company's workforce is black, regardless of whether they are qualified for the job or not. The result is that either companies don't have adequate staff or they end up employed extra people who are qualified, just to see them through.
Can see it ending up that way here if we're not careful..........

Yip, there is a vast upper middle class of black south africans who are entirely unfit for purpose in their roles in both the private and the public sector simply because the company/ organisation are not allowed to hire anyone but [insert lacking demographic here].

It doesn's stop at race though, there are also gender/ disabilty etc quotes which must be filled.

Currently it is to all intents and purposes impossible for a white male to get a job in South Africa. White women find it easier because they have Gender on their side. A black woman with any kind of education can walz into high paying jobs where they need do nothing but turn up because the company has to have them.

Its madness. @Geronimo897 would be able to be more enlightening than I on the subject I am sure

 

[Mullers]

I think we're entering a very dangerous period in general regarding racism and equality.
My parents went to South Africa recently and were astounded to see how racial equality is approached there.
It's now a legal requirement that a certain percentage of a company's workforce is black, regardless of whether they are qualified for the job or not. The result is that either companies don't have adequate staff or they end up employed extra people who are qualified, just to see them through.
Can see it ending up that way here if we're not careful..........

Here was me thinking that Apartheid was the very dangerous period regarding racism and equality. Did all the white folk get their great jobs over non white folk during the apartheid era on merit?
Something has to be done to correct the great injustice that went on.

 

[dontcallme]

Yeah, definitely moving towards dangerous territory.

 

[Mullers]

Like I said, I don't care what adjective you put in front of it

Listen - I probably should not even be discussing this thread, it's probably too close to home, but my family are 'white Zimbabwean farmers' (you surely are aware of the broad situation there) & we had the work of 3 generations of our family taken from us at gunpoint in 2002 & were left practically destitute on the grounds of 'positive discrimination' (although they called it 'indiginisation')

So I am not likely to come around to a point of view which accepts such no matter how reasonable your arguments may be, because I have personally experienced the deep ugly side of it & I've seen and been a victim of where it can lead

That has nothing to do with positive discrimination, that is just about a power mad dictator on an ego trip, who will kill anyone regardless of what colour they are who opposes him.

 

[WalkerboyUK]

Here was me thinking that Apartheid was the very dangerous period regarding racism and equality. Did all the white folk get their great jobs over non white folk during the apartheid era on merit?
Something has to be done to correct the great injustice that went on.

Very fair point, but you can't simply enforce a quota onto companies and then wonder why they aren't successful in progressing. By all means, the decision to employ should be made on qualification for the job, not colour, but you can't reverse history using this specific approach.

It's the same with the FA and in general in the UK. Yes, there should be diversity on the commission, but you also need to ensure the people are relevant/qualified for the roles!!

 

[Geyzer Soze]

That has nothing to do with positive discrimination, that is just about a power mad dictator on an ego trip, who will kill anyone regardless of what colour they are who opposes him.

Under the cloak of righting historical wrongs using 'indiginisation' as a tool.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Here was me thinking that Apartheid was the very dangerous period regarding racism and equality. Did all the white folk get their great jobs over non white folk during the apartheid era on merit?
Something has to be done to correct the great injustice that went on.

You think doing exactly the same in reverse, to a new generation of people, rights the wrong?

 

[Mullers]

Very fair point, but you can't simply enforce a quota onto companies and then wonder why they aren't successful in progressing. By all means, the decision to employ should be made on qualification for the job, not colour, but you can't reverse history using this specific approach.

It's the same with the FA and in general in the UK. Yes, there should be diversity on the commission, but you also need to ensure the people are relevant/qualified for the roles!!

Well you certainly can't leave things as they were, with people getting a better quality of education according to what colour they are. People have to be given a chance, it can't be all the white people in the best jobs any more. The best way to do that in this case I believe is the quota system.

 

[Mullers]

Under the cloak of righting historical wrongs using 'indiginisation' as a tool.

That is just what it is a cloak and nothing more, you can take any good cause and distort it.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Well you certainly can't leave things as they were, with people getting a better quality of education according to what colour they are. People have to be given a chance, it can't be all the white people in the best jobs any more. The best way to do that in this case I believe is the quota system.

I could not disagree more. The ONLY way to do it is to remove discrimination and allow people to be employed and live on merit.

Otherwise it just becomes a neverending circle of discrimination.

What about the legally disenfranchised right now? Perhaps their children will be judged to deserve a quota of their own since their parents were legally disenfranchised a generation ago, and thus once again the merrygoround starts.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

That is just what it is a cloak and nothing more, you can take any good cause and distort it.

Well, it's clear that you are the expert here so I leave you to your ill-informed theories on Africa then.

 

[Mullers]

You think doing exactly the same in reverse, to a new generation of people, rights the wrong?

It is nothing like the Apartheid era, nothing at all, white people are allowed to vote, they are not told they can't sit in a public area with non whites etc etc.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

It is nothing like the Apartheid era, nothing at all, white people are allowed to vote, they are not told they can't sit in a public area with non whites etc etc.

In those specific respects, no.

But they are told what job they may or may not have. Which was another (major) aspect of Apartheid which had many facets.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Anyway, this is way way off topic now really. And I don't want to speak about it anymore personally. Suggest starting an Affirmative Action/ Positive Discrimination thread for anyone who wishes to continue talking about the broader aspects of it where it does not relate to the FA

 

[Mullers]

I could not disagree more. The ONLY way to do it is to remove discrimination and allow people to be employed and live on merit.

Otherwise it just becomes a neverending circle of discrimination.

What about the legally disenfranchised right now? Perhaps their children will be judged to deserve a quota of their own since their parents were legally disenfranchised a generation ago, and thus once again the merrygoround starts.

To do it on merit there must be a starting point for change, if you just leave things as they are, white people will still be in their jobs, they've had a more privileged start. That would be unacceptable and not the change people voted for. There is no easy solution Apartheid has caused a massive amount of damage.