Levy wants to have this model :)

[YiddoInPoland]

Checking on my facebook feed and someone posted a graphic which represented the difference between the Man City squad and the Ajax team that have taken 4 points from them in this CL Campaign.

How accurate it is, i can't say but i am sure it is not that far off the truth and it goes to show you can build a team which performs at the highest level if the investment is geared at the right levels of the club. It is funny that Ajax, even though they do get the plaudits for this type of set-up it is nowhere near enough, it is incredible that they can compete, although they are lucky to be in such a weak league, put them in the Premiership and they would still compete IMO.

If Levy is shifting us to this sort of model, where from a very young age the kids are trained to work in a system that helps them come through i am all for it, even though it will take a hell of long time to achieve.

It was just interesting and wanted to share even if it is not 100% Spurs related.

 

[tototoner]

Ajax have had a fantastic youth setup and scouting network since Rinus Michels was head coach in 1965

Johan Cruijff then took this same template to Barcelona in 1988

Of course we should be looking at the model both these teams have but that's not a quick fix and the modern fan wants results now

The table does show that the UFP is essential

 

[Paolo10]

So Levy wants a youth system like Ajax's then?

I'm so super shocked.

That's a complete pipedream for us, completely different scenario to Ajax tbh.

 

[YiddoInPoland]

So Levy wants a youth system like Ajax's then?

I'm so super shocked.

That's a complete pipedream for us, completely different scenario to Ajax tbh.

It was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek, meaning Levy wants to spend zero money and be in the champions league.

I was just interesting, and goes to show it is not always about money.

 

[Wick3d]

This model wouldn't be implemented overnight and would take years to yield results. With the "patient" fans we have, I don't see that being a problem.

 

[brasil_spur]

Whilst this system is great i think there are other systems we could go for which would produce equally as good results and be easier to implement.

Personally i would look to buy in more younger but reasonably well known players. What will happen is that there will be a higher turn around of players at Spurs and as such we would have to rework our cash flow model to a degree, but i think if done correctly we could easily make a reasonable profit off this system and at the same time unearth some superstars.

The system:

We should be looking to have a set of budget of say £50m per season to spend on these types of players. Typically you would be expecting to pay between £5m and £10m for these sorts of players, so likely you'd be signing around 7-8 players a season.

As the majority of these would be U21 eligible then you don't have to worry about having them in your squad lists. But actually most of them you would look to loan out to other PL clubs. Hopefully the PL clubs would cover the majority of their wages and thus you would only need a small additional wage budget of say £3-5m per year. Also it is no bad thing to loan some of these abroad too.

Ensure that the loan deals are done on 2 x 6 month deals, so that we can recall players back into the fold during the season if we need to or if they are setting the world alight at their PL loan club.

Then at the end of each season we can look at the players we have bought in this system and decide whether to sell them, loan them out or move them into the first team. What you don't want to do is keep loaning them as this stops the system from working. So there will be players that we'll make a loss on, but hopefully the losses will be fairly minimal. But this is where there needs to a change in mindset, it's a a game of long term investment - we make a loss on some and a profit on others and on others they become key first teams players for a fraction of what we would pay for them.

You can see that this system has already worked for us a bit in essence with Walker and Caulker. However we really aren't doing it in enough volume to have real success.

It's of course easy to give examples in hindsight, but there were times where we could have secured players like: Ben Arfa, Cavani, Falcao, Leandro and many others within this system's price range. Of course they would have been gambles and whilst those ones would have paid off, some of the other ones would not have done. But in order for this to work you have to have the flexibility to buy players within this type of system - which is outside the specification of the usual transfer budget and as such comes without the pressure for these players to start making a massive difference to our performances on the pitch from day one.

I also think that our new training facilities provide us with a huge amount more leverage for setting up a system like this as it can really attract these younger potential future star type players.

Anyway that's my two cents worth, if DL or one of his minions is reading this and thinks it's a great idea then PM me up

 

[vegassd]

It's of course easy to give examples in hindsight, but there were times where we could have secured players like: Ben Arfa, Cavani, Falcao, Leandro and many others within this system's price range. Of course they would have been gambles and whilst those ones would have paid off, some of the other ones would not have done. But in order for this to work you have to have the flexibility to buy players within this type of system - which is outside the specification of the usual transfer budget and as such comes without the pressure for these players to start making a massive difference to our performances on the pitch from day one.

That's the problem isn't it - hindsight can be quite blinding. And for every Ben Arfa who comes through you probably need to invest in 5 or 6 players, which could equate to just one 'survivor' for every season of spending in your 50m/season plan.

And there is always that barrier to breakthrough when we have better players on the pitch already. Perhaps Livermore would be a better player if he were at Stoke and playing every week. But here is behind other players so it's harder to gain competitive experience. A real chicken and egg thing.

I'm not having a dig by the way, I just think that as fans we see the surface layer of player spending and aren't aware of just how much is being spent on the Khumalos and Coulibalys of this world.

 

[Gbspurs]

Thing is Ajax have had one of the worlds best academy's for decades plus they are the biggest club in holland which helps because every child in the country supports them!! We will never attract that level of domestic talent due to the north/south divide and the fact that we are not the biggest club.

 

[brasil_spur]

That's the problem isn't it - hindsight can be quite blinding. And for every Ben Arfa who comes through you probably need to invest in 5 or 6 players, which could equate to just one 'survivor' for every season of spending in your 50m/season plan.

And there is always that barrier to breakthrough when we have better players on the pitch already. Perhaps Livermore would be a better player if he were at Stoke and playing every week. But here is behind other players so it's harder to gain competitive experience. A real chicken and egg thing.

I'm not having a dig by the way, I just think that as fans we see the surface layer of player spending and aren't aware of just how much is being spent on the Khumalos and Coulibalys of this world.

Yeh but for every player that comes through, if done sensibly you should be able to not lose all the value you've spent on the others.

Let's take the example of when we had Comolli, which was a step towards this type of system.

Mido - sold for £1.5m profit
Tainio - sold for undisclosed profit thought to be around £1m
Dawson - bought for approx. £4m
Lee - sold at break even
Huddlestone - bought for £2.5m
Jenas - still with us, but likely to be released or sold for a loss of around £8m
Lennon - bought for £1m
Berbatov - sold for a profit of £20m
Chimbonda - sold twice for a total loss of about £2m
Zokora - sold for an undisclosed loss thought to be around £1m
BAE - bought for £3.5m
Bent - sold at break even
Bale - bought for £7m
Kaboul - bought initially for around £8m (rises to about £11m if you factor in the sale and re-buy from Portsmouth)
Hutton - sold for a £2m loss
Woodgate - released for a loss of £7m
Boateng - sold for a loss of £1m
Modric - sold for a profit of £16.5m
Pavlyuchenko - sold for a loss of £6m
Bentley - still with us, but likely to be released or sold for a loss of around £15m
Gomes - still with us, but likely to be released or sold for a loss of around £8m
Corluka - sold at break even

So in total by employing this system we have improved the team massively by reaching Europa and CL and securing bigger sponsorship deals, thus massively increasing our income.

Then if you break down the numbers, we have in total paid £40m for the following players who are still with us as a key part of the squad: Dawson, Huddlestone, Lennon, BAE, Bale and Kaboul. The current value of these players i would conservatively estimate at: Dawson (£8m), Huddlestone (£7m), Lennon (£15m), BAE (£15m), Bale (£35m) and Kaboul (£12m) - total: £92m.

If you ignore these players and just look at the overall profit and loss of those we have bought and sold under Comolli then we've actually made a net loss on transfer fees of: £10m

So the system clearly wasn't spot on, which was obvious on the basis we ended up firing Comolli, but it yielded some pretty decent results at a net cash flow cost of £10m but resulted in £92m worth of players bought for £40m. And that's without taking the increased revenues which have resulted from improved on the pitch performance into account.

*obviously all numbers are approximate and exact figures may be slightly off.

 

[vegassd]

So the system clearly wasn't spot on, which was obvious on the basis we ended up firing Comolli, but it yielded some pretty decent results at a net cash flow cost of £10m but resulted in £92m worth of players bought for £40m. And that's without taking the increased revenues which have resulted from improved on the pitch performance into account.

Good breakdown by the way. Not sure I agree with a valuation of 15m for BAE but let's not go there in this thread!

I would say that quite a few on that list weren't really plucked from semi-obscurity. The likes of Lennon, Tainio, Boateng, Hudd and Dawson are (I think) the kind of guys you are leaning toward with this sort of system and we have done well enough on them. A lot of the profit on those deals is probably down to Levy actually - Modric, Berba, Carrick.

You're right though, I think we do need to get a bit closer to a 'they might be great' system that Arsenal and United seem to operate so effectively. Maybe the new training facilities will turn a few heads of those sorts of players.

We will have to be prepared to have quite a few players who just end up really crap though. If that happens there will no doubt be a lot of people who think 'why did we buy three potential talents and not one proven one?' though so I guess there's no pleasing everybody.

Looking down that list is pretty interesting though. Imagine if Boateng had hit his form whilst with us, or if Gomes hadn't turned into a shambles?! Lot's of if's and but's I know.

 

[Syn_13]

If that is accurate then it's very amusing. The Ajax team discipline is what really makes them strong, any other £2.9m team would have been slaughtered.

Must be tough for the fans though to see such a huge turnover of players since all the best and brightest leave for bigger clubs.

 

[brasil_spur]

Good breakdown by the way. Not sure I agree with a valuation of 15m for BAE but let's not go there in this thread!

I would say that quite a few on that list weren't really plucked from semi-obscurity. The likes of Lennon, Tainio, Boateng, Hudd and Dawson are (I think) the kind of guys you are leaning toward with this sort of system and we have done well enough on them. A lot of the profit on those deals is probably down to Levy actually - Modric, Berba, Carrick.

You're right though, I think we do need to get a bit closer to a 'they might be great' system that Arsenal and United seem to operate so effectively. Maybe the new training facilities will turn a few heads of those sorts of players.

We will have to be prepared to have quite a few players who just end up really crap though. If that happens there will no doubt be a lot of people who think 'why did we buy three potential talents and not one proven one?' though so I guess there's no pleasing everybody.

Looking down that list is pretty interesting though. Imagine if Boateng had hit his form whilst with us, or if Gomes hadn't turned into a shambles?! Lot's of if's and but's I know.

Even with the ifs and buts excluded, players like Bale, BAE, Lennon, Kaboul and to a degree Dawson and Hudd are extremely important players in our current set-up. That's almost half our current outfield line-up being successes which can be attributed to Comolli, with the likes of Dembele being bought in to replace Modric.

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

Perhaps Livermore would be a better player if he were at Stoke and playing every week.

Is this Stoke City or Stoke Poges?

 

[Adam456]

Whilst this system is great i think there are other systems we could go for which would produce equally as good results and be easier to implement.

Personally i would look to buy in more younger but reasonably well known players. What will happen is that there will be a higher turn around of players at Spurs and as such we would have to rework our cash flow model to a degree, but i think if done correctly we could easily make a reasonable profit off this system and at the same time unearth some superstars.

The system:

We should be looking to have a set of budget of say £50m per season to spend on these types of players. Typically you would be expecting to pay between £5m and £10m for these sorts of players, so likely you'd be signing around 7-8 players a season.

As the majority of these would be U21 eligible then you don't have to worry about having them in your squad lists. But actually most of them you would look to loan out to other PL clubs. Hopefully the PL clubs would cover the majority of their wages and thus you would only need a small additional wage budget of say £3-5m per year. Also it is no bad thing to loan some of these abroad too.

Ensure that the loan deals are done on 2 x 6 month deals, so that we can recall players back into the fold during the season if we need to or if they are setting the world alight at their PL loan club.

Then at the end of each season we can look at the players we have bought in this system and decide whether to sell them, loan them out or move them into the first team. What you don't want to do is keep loaning them as this stops the system from working. So there will be players that we'll make a loss on, but hopefully the losses will be fairly minimal. But this is where there needs to a change in mindset, it's a a game of long term investment - we make a loss on some and a profit on others and on others they become key first teams players for a fraction of what we would pay for them.

You can see that this system has already worked for us a bit in essence with Walker and Caulker. However we really aren't doing it in enough volume to have real success.

It's of course easy to give examples in hindsight, but there were times where we could have secured players like: Ben Arfa, Cavani, Falcao, Leandro and many others within this system's price range. Of course they would have been gambles and whilst those ones would have paid off, some of the other ones would not have done. But in order for this to work you have to have the flexibility to buy players within this type of system - which is outside the specification of the usual transfer budget and as such comes without the pressure for these players to start making a massive difference to our performances on the pitch from day one.

I also think that our new training facilities provide us with a huge amount more leverage for setting up a system like this as it can really attract these younger potential future star type players.

Anyway that's my two cents worth, if DL or one of his minions is reading this and thinks it's a great idea then PM me up

This is exactly what we've done in principle to transform ourselves from a mid-table side into top 4-5. The difference is that we've spent more like £2-5m rather than 5-10. While the latter type will yield better players, sooner, you would inevitably 1. Have to pay higher wages and would be unable to offset them on players loaned to small clubs and 2. Find that slightly more established (particularly foreign) players might object to signing when they feel there's a good chance they'll end up out on loan at some geographically remote championship club instead of London. Less established players are likely to be less fussy but you have to cast the net a little wider and be prepared for some to be sold without really featuring

 

[ultimateloner]

I don't think the purpose of building a player factory is to produce the best player there is; thats a bonus but not the norm.
My view is that this takes a leaf from any trading industry. If you become more vertically integrated you get more option on where to optimize. For example you get to focus more on player trading in the boom times. You also get to offload players not destined for the top flight at a theoratical profit (ignoring the running/investment in the facility), a case in point is O'Hara. He is a success story. Same is likely to apply for most of our young utility-level squad players (Townsend/Livermore). Most other clubs like Man Utd already have such a facility to fall back upon; we are just following the footsteps to become sustainable.

 

[spursfan77]

Ajax get the pick of all the players in Holland though as they are the biggest club. Its pretty hard to do that in England where we arent the biggest club.

 

[beats1]

Ajax have a good youth system because they implemented a system that allows for players to get in to the first team, I would say looking at some of the talent coming through we definitely have one of the best academies but one of the worst system for developing player but are terrible at implementing the next step of development where they need to kick on from their early progress

Also top teams struggle to have youth players coming through properly as it is hard for the player to bleed in properly, even barcelona are struggling imo as at the moment as players in the fringes who have broken in easily a couple of years ago are now struggling, a player like Thiago would be a national hero if he was english and playing for a english club

 

[ultimateloner]

Ajax have a good youth system because they implemented a system that allows for players to get in to the first team, I would say looking at some of the talent coming through we definitely have one of the best academies but one of the worst system for developing player but are terrible at implementing the next step of development where they need to kick on from their early progress

Also top teams struggle to have youth players coming through properly as it is hard for the player to bleed in properly, even barcelona are struggling imo as at the moment as players in the fringes who have broken in easily a couple of years ago are now struggling, a player like Thiago would be a national hero if he was english and playing for a english club

Then sell him, or someone else more senior and replacable at a profit. The whole point is that you have options once you are good at producing quality players at whatever level it is suits them. Our problem isn't that we can't put young players in (i don't think thats important), but we haven't yet established enough channels to showcase them. This is why i think HR got the right direction with loaning out alot of young players. Once you do that they get a proper look in so they get a market value. Then we get to sell if price is right.

 

[striebs]

Then sell him, or someone else more senior and replacable at a profit. The whole point is that you have options once you are good at producing quality players at whatever level it is suits them. Our problem isn't that we can't put young players in (i don't think thats important), but we haven't yet established enough channels to showcase them. This is why i think HR got the right direction with loaning out alot of young players. Once you do that they get a proper look in so they get a market value. Then we get to sell if price is right.

Totally agree about sending players out on loan like Redknapp did .

A club like Spurs or even Manchester United simply cannot do everything inhouse ; the management overheads would be too much .

Football is a pyramid and there are clubs in lower leagues which specialise in developing players which can do a far better job more cost effectively than a P.L. outfit could do it themselves . Same as many industries .

I watched Crewe Alexandra at the end of last season and they even played like Man Utd , especially their striker .

Sure agents get better deals for their clients than they could get themselves but they have a lot to answer for . How much further advanced could the careers of Wayne Routledge and John Bostock have been if they had of stayed where they were getting competitive games for another year ?

 

[Wick3d]

Ajax get the pick of all the players in Holland though as they are the biggest club. Its pretty hard to do that in England where we arent the biggest club.

Ajax find players from all over the place, whereas we at Tottenham must find players from a far small catchment area. It is no surprise that teams like Southampton find good young players to develop. They have a far bigger catchment area, whereas we are also competing with the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham.