Match Threads Manchester United vs Spurs - Match Thread

[ljinko888]

I think it’s down to personality. Drogba had arrogance and confidence to go with his skills. Mitrovic has skills and is a hard bastard to go with it. Lukaku is skilful enough, and athletic, but looks a bit of a bottler. It’s what held Heskey back, too.

I'd agree with that but what I will say is Drogba's legacy is a little odd.

Drogba was not actually that prolific. He only broke the 20 goal mark in a PL season twice. To put into context Kane has done it four times already. And the two seasons he did were the only times he passed 20 goals in all competitions.

What made Drogba stand out were these three factors:
1) An incredible big game player
2) A fantastic all round game.
3) Moments of brilliance

Drogba didn't have to be prolific for teams to be shitting themselves up against him. He bullied defenders, worked hard for the team, had good intelligence to hold the ball up and get team mates involved with clever link-up. He had the presence and confidence to alleviate pressure. He also was a diving bastard.

Then factor in the fact he scored all types of goals. Volleys, headers, free kicks, long range, power, finesse.

I'd have a guess that Lukaku has a better strike rate in terms of goals per game. That's normal with the evolution of football. 20 years ago a 1 in 2 record was the gold standard but now we have players almost going at a goal a game. But football has much more nuances to it than the data sheet allows and that's why Drogba was considered world class in spite of his stats whereas others like Lukaku still have the jury out whether he's up to the standard of being in the elite.

 

[Bobbins]

Would it have been a red for De Gea too? I'm a bit lost on the last man, goalscoring opportunity, thing now.

By the modern rule book it would’ve just been one yellow card for Alli ?

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

I'd agree with that but what I will say is Drogba's legacy is a little odd.

Drogba was not actually that prolific. He only broke the 20 goal mark in a PL season twice. To put into context Kane has done it four times already. And the two seasons he did were the only times he passed 20 goals in all competitions.

What made Drogba stand out were these three factors:
1) An incredible big game player
2) A fantastic all round game.
3) Moments of brilliance

Drogba didn't have to be prolific for teams to be shitting themselves up against him. He bullied defenders, worked hard for the team, had good intelligence to hold the ball up and get team mates involved with clever link-up. He had the presence and confidence to alleviate pressure. He also was a diving bastard.

Then factor in the fact he scored all types of goals. Volleys, headers, free kicks, long range, power, finesse.

I'd have a guess that Lukaku has a better strike rate in terms of goals per game. That's normal with the evolution of football. 20 years ago a 1 in 2 record was the gold standard but now we have players almost going at a goal a game. But football has much more nuances to it than the data sheet allows and that's why Drogba was considered world class in spite of his stats whereas others like Lukaku still have the jury out whether he's up to the standard of being in the elite.

Don’t disagree with any of that. My simplification is that everyone liked Drogba because his self-confidence was so high he made it look like any failures were the fault of the universe in general, and everyone rates Mitrovic because we’d hate to bump into him down a dark alley, but Lukaku and Heskey are a bit beige.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I think it’s down to personality. Drogba had arrogance and confidence to go with his skills. Mitrovic has skills and is a hard bastard to go with it. Lukaku is skilful enough, and athletic, but looks a bit of a bottler. It’s what held Heskey back, too.

"Skilful enough" is not, um, skilful enough for the level at which he's being expected to play. Lukaku has excellent pace and world-class strength. He can finish. He excels at holding the ball up. But his skill, movement and vision, while they are are OK, are not up to an elite level.

I haven't seen enough of Mitrovic, so let's compare to Harry Kane, whose strength is close to Lukaku's, after years of strength training to compensate for him not being a 6'-4" brick shithouse like Romelu. His pace is slightly better than average, again after years of hard work to overcome natural physical limitations - he was painfully slow at 18. But his finishing ability, ball control, hold-up ability and especially his movement and vision of the game are world-class. That's why he's a better all-round striker, as well as being a more prolific goal-scorer.

I don't think Lukaku is a bottler. He stepped up, when played out of position, late last season when Man Utd really needed it, and put on a master-class of hold-up play and teamwork. But he doesn't see the game like Kane and I don't think he has the same work ethic. Lukaku's movement in and around the box is relatively pedestrian and it's easy to see that Kane spends twice the time on the training ground practicing his finishing.

 

[smallsnc]

I'm not sure. I think it has to be denying a certain goal. You could argue both ways whether he did. Dele didn't score so maybe it wasn't certain, or maybe had he not staggered he would have got the shot off quicker.
I think Pogba was immensely lucky not to get a straight red and in fact won a free kick in the 2nd half too.

From what I understand, if the player is attempting to play the ball from the side or in front of the attacking player and commits a foul which is deemed to be denying a goal scoring opportunity, it is only a yellow. If the defender comes in from behind or makes no attempt at the ball it is a red.

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

"Skilful enough" is not, um, skilful enough for the level at which he's being expected to play. Lukaku has excellent pace and world-class strength. He can finish. He excels at holding the ball up. But his skill, movement and vision, while they are are OK, are not up to an elite level.

I haven't seen enough of Mitrovic, so let's compare to Harry Kane, whose strength is close to Lukaku's, after years of strength training to compensate for him not being a 6'-4" brick shithouse like Romelu. His pace is slightly better than average, again after years of hard work to overcome natural physical limitations - he was painfully slow at 18. But his finishing ability, ball control, hold-up ability and especially his movement and vision of the game are world-class. That's why he's a better all-round striker, as well as being a more prolific goal-scorer.

I don't think Lukaku is a bottler. He stepped up, when played out of position, late last season when Man Utd really needed it, and put on a master-class of hold-up play and teamwork. But he doesn't see the game like Kane and I don't think he has the same work ethic. Lukaku's movement in and around the box is relatively pedestrian and it's easy to see that Kane spends twice the time on the training ground practicing his finishing.

Hmm, again I don’t disagree with any of that, but it’s moving further away from the point I (thought I was) addressing. I’m talking about fans’ impressions/memories of players, and why Drogbas and Mitrovics are held in esteem, while Heskeys and Lukakus aren’t. I’m thinking more about how different players drive our emotions, rather than their intrinsic merits.

I’m also at the six Stella point, so should probably retire from this discussion!

 

[Gassin's finest]

As a supporter who did trust Poch and Levy and who didn't moan in the summer I am of the opinion that Grahem Roberts should shut the fuck up, he's always been an arsehole, such a shame for a former Spurs captain.

Having met the man, I think he's a top bloke.

 

[spursfan77]

He's been pretty shit since he got there.

He always looks a bit tired. Probably all those sleepless nights worrying how he’s going to spend his £500k a week

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

This feels like a trophy win. I do wonder what it will really feel like to win a trophy. i have a feeling i would be getting a p45 if we did.

Do you know the best thing about what you ask?

IF we do win silverware, we will have WON it, the right way, self sustained, no shortcut or quick fix. Just a slow (yes too slow for many) but methodical approach, which, as new home-grown rules seem to be being slowly integrated by the powers that be, could be set to see us as the best placed club to capitalise upon the "self sufficient" and home grown/club trained rules.

I may be an old romantic, but if/when we do get that next feel of silverware, it'll mean so much more than if we'd just spunked X millions of pounds to get a quick fix.

Onions!

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

I know people hate Twitter but the guy is fucking spot on.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Totally agree. But football fans of other teams will never let it go.
Kinda reminds me of people always saying BMW drivers never indicate. Yes they do. Not all of them, but not all drivers of any car indicate. It's time to let your 1970's prejudice go buddy.

As someone who drives at least 11 hours each day, I'm gonna say you're wrong & it fucking is all of them!!!!!!!

 

[Ionman34]

It was a strange feeling when Rose buggered up that back pass let through Lukaku.

A feeling of calmness - I was sure he was going to miss and he did - thankfully.

Before that miss, Lukaku was shown as having a 5% conversion rate against us. After yesterday it’s probably nearer 3%.

That’s 3 goals for every 100 shots against us...

Considering that both Alderweireld and Vertonghen both have his number (his only clear chance coming from the Rose error), he only really gets 2-3 chances per game, so maybe 6 a season?

That’s roughly a goal every 5.5 years...

World Class

 

[Tit&Ham]

I enjoy the expected goals statistic, but a big flaw is that doesn’t consider the penalty not given... would probably add 0.8 to our first half stat.

The enjoyment of exp goals comes from last season: utd got something like 18 points more than they should/could have... guess that reflects how damn good de gea was that season

 

[Ionman34]

As someone who drives at least 11 hours each day, I'm gonna say you're wrong & it fucking is all of them!!!!!!!

I drove a Beamer, I indicate whether there is a car near me to see it or not.

Now Volvo drivers...

 

[Mr Pink]

As someone who drives at least 11 hours each day, I'm gonna say you're wrong & it fucking is all of them!!!!!!!

Like fuck it is, I drive a four series coupe, and I indicate, pity its always when there's no one around to benefit!!

 

[kaz Hirai]

As someone who drives at least 11 hours each day, I'm gonna say you're wrong & it fucking is all of them!!!!!!!

I'm a BMW driver and I indicate

 

[Mr Pink]

I'm a BMW driver and I indicate

What you drive Kaz?

 

[kaz Hirai]

What you drive Kaz?

Z4 3.5is .....and a Suzuki swift

 

[Shadydan]

BMW army

 

[Ionman34]

BMW army

BMWsodl