Match Ratings Match Ratings vs West Ham (H)

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Amidst all the justified narration about our inconsistency, there is a different way to look at this, which is that we have won 4 of our last 5 league matches (5 of our last 7), during which time we have scored 16 goals and conceded 4 in the last 5.

Perhaps more importantly, we have started to see a consistent style of play during the past 7 matches that resembles Conte-ball as we know it. Gone are the 20-minute periods in every match when our midfield would be incapable of completing two simple passes in succession, with minimal movement off the ball and players constantly being caught in possession.

As others have implied, the two new players have made a great difference because of their composure and calmness on the ball, but the improvement has affected everyone, as the passage of play in defence on the right during the second half showed today - no panic, just keep passing the ball until a route appears to clear it to a teammate.

Bentancur epitomised that today: I reckon he was channelling Luka Modric today. He was often to be found in a Modric-like lake of space in the centre of the pitch, with enough time to consider whether to run or pass, but whenever he received the ball under pressure, he always had the first step away from potential trouble planned out - very Modric in style.

We haven't had someone who can retain the ball under pressure like that since Dembélé left. The difference in grip was drastic.

Kane, Romero and Kulusevski also excelled; Doherty had his crucial moments; Son did what Son does twice; Davies and Dier were inconspicuously capable; Højbjerg was OK, in a role that mainly called for him to nullify Rice; only Reguilon had a disappointing game.

But Bentancur was the best and most effective player on the pitch, by a long way.

It's fun to support a team that scores goals and has a style. Perhaps this summer can be approached with excitement, rather than trepidation.

Spot on, David.

It's no exaggeration to say that, at times, some of our football was absolutely fantastic.

The way we calmly played our way out of tight positions in defence.

The patterns of play between Hojbjerg, Deki & Bentancur.

Then the way Son busts a gut to be the runner in behind the West Ham defence, creating space for Bentancur, Hojbjerg, Kane & Deki to cut through a normally resolute West Ham back-line.

It was simply a pleasure to watch.

Conte and his boring, rigid, inflexible system. ?‍

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

I know he scored twice but feel some are getting a little carried away.
I'm not a fan of Son and today was a shining example of why.
Unless he is on with a chance of scoring himself he always slows the game down. His passes were always a second or more too late. He dalies on the ball doing step overs and such when a simple pass opens up the space.
An example of this, he was in on the left hand channel (offside but he didn't know).
He could have squared across the box for a possible Tap in. Instead he dallied and ran it out

Having said that.
Romero and Bentancur were both exceptional. I actually think Bentancur will come on further with Skipp alongside him

Yep agree with this regarding Son, in fact our left side was arguably poor today considering the number of chances both Son and Reggy had. Seems harsh criticising a 3-1 win but I was surprised Son got MOTM on sky

Aww bless, you couldn't have just thought its a game of opinions and although you don't agree, they are entitled to theirs.
Nope, went straight on the attack.
He is a spurs player and will always have my support.
However, I think many forgive his poor performances and at times horrendous in game choices because he scores goals and is likeable.

Here's a challenge, watch a few games specifically focussing on Sons actual performance rather than his stats.
Specifically look for the difference in how quickly he attacks when he has a chance as opposed to when he could create for others.
Also look at the difference in how Kane (head up looking to play someone in) and Son (slows down the play by doing a few step overs, running down a blind alley and passing backwards or side wards).

If you give it a fair view, you would be surprised.

I set my brother the same challenge and he saw what I meant.

But hey,I could just fuck off

That's fair.
Yes his goals have been a blessing for us, and we would certainly be worse off.
I've never said otherwise.
However, personally, my own opinion is I am not his biggest fan

Sonny can be brilliant yes but all too often be a fanny. Goes to ground looking for fouls (as does fanny reggie) instead of fighting for the ball and how many players have the ability to fall over consistently whilst not under pressure, even the ref brought him down. He may be nice, he may be occassionalyt brill but I want winners in the mould of Benta. This is where if we had leaders they would say for fucks sake sonny man up, toughen up and compete for the team. If he developed a mean streak to his game as Mane has, he would be real world class. Just my opinion, if you don't like it fine, but no need for abuse.
Great performance by Benta, he brings composure needed and glues the defence together, note when he lost the ball he SPRINTED to win it back and not sit in his arse moaning!

Not a big fan is a bit more understandable, i think to say you arent a fan full stop which is where the convo started is what left people scratching their heads a bit.

The other thing you need to look at (maybe you do, it just wasnt mentioned) is how many runs he makes when he doesnt even get played the ball. he's very often our only player trying to break the line, not just on the counter but when we have the ball lying deep. It's all very well for kane to drop short and he likely will get the ball played to him more than Son in behind because its easier for our midfield/defenders, but we need Son threatening to make that run to keep defenders thinking about in behind as well as strikers dropping deep, and he does it willingly, often not getting the ball. Kane and Kulu are great at what they do, but they are not a threat in this way.

You mentioned the moment he went through and was offside and dallied, which is an example of one of those runs - personally, i think he and also the other players knew he was off, the attempt to continue the attack was half hearted...either way, if you also note that he was the one making that run, not Kulu or Kane. Similarly, the moment he took the 2 yard hand off from Bentancour in our half, ran maybe 50+ yards up the field fast enough that the west ham midfielder couldnt catch him to make a foul let alone a tackle, played a great ball into Kanes feet and Kane had his effort saved. Again give that to Kulu or Kane in that position and they aren't able to do that.

The main thing that gets me with Son is his when he drops in a horrendeous touch which he does a couple of times a game, wish he could sort that out but for all that he brings to the game he's overall a massive net positive for us and has been for years.

See, these posts optimise what I said a couple of weeks ago.

The modern day "supporter" spends more time looking for what they don't like, something to criticise, rather than appreciate the good that is happening right in front of them.

Each to their own, but I'll never understand it & I don't think certain supporters will ever be happy. I think it's a shame.

 

[C1w8]

See, these posts optimise what I said a couple of weeks ago.

The modern day "supporter" spends more time looking for what they don't like, something to criticise, rather than appreciate the good that is happening right in front of them.

Each to their own, but I'll never understand it & I don't think certain supporters will ever be happy. I think it's a shame.

I definitely wasnt looking to criticize Son in my post, was trying to point out all the good he does!

But yep, agreed on this point, he's getting way too much slander for the times something doesnt come off, even in matches when we have reaped the reward for his endeavours.

 

[PLTuck]

Son scores 2 and is heavily involved in the 3rd yet some will pick up on a single incident where his touch was bad.

I know everyone's a critic and all that but come on. Really? I hope those people put in perfect performances at work every single day, and never let their levels drop at all. Ever.

If you really want to criticise Son, do it about the pathetic incident where he went down like he'd been rugby tackled after a ball was kicked somewhere near his direction.

 

[dude573]

Son scores 2 and is heavily involved in the 3rd yet some will pick up on a single incident where his touch was bad.

I know everyone's a critic and all that but come on. Really? I hope those people put in perfect performances at work every single day, and never let their levels drop at all. Ever.

If you really want to criticise Son, do it about the pathetic incident where he went down like he'd been rugby tackled after a ball was kicked somewhere near his direction.

I have no problem with Son doing that to be honest. Tierney did the exact same thing against Watford for Arsenal as well, so this event isn't uncommon. I think Son's wised up ever since Rudiger got him sent off for raising his feet against him

The top teams in the world are full of bastards who will antagonise opposition and test the ref's decision making.

 

[PLTuck]

I have no problem with Son doing that to be honest. Tierney did the exact same thing against Watford for Arsenal as well, so this event isn't uncommon. I think Son's wised up ever since Rudiger got him sent off for raising his feet against him

The top teams in the world are full of bastards who will antagonise opposition and test the ref's decision making.

Yeah I agree it's symptematic of the modern game doing everything possible to get even a 0.1% advantage, but I still find it a bit embarressing when it's that blatant.

 

[SpursSince1980]

Bentancur was MoM for me. Though, many others had very good games (Romero, Kane, Dier, PEH). We haven’t had a midfielder of Bentancur’s quality since Dembele. I really cannot understand why Juve let him leave. He’s already one of the better midfielder’s in the PL. Thought he outplayed Rice.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

See, these posts optimise what I said a couple of weeks ago.

The modern day "supporter" spends more time looking for what they don't like, something to criticise, rather than appreciate the good that is happening right in front of them.

Each to their own, but I'll never understand it & I don't think certain supporters will ever be happy. I think it's a shame.

What goes inextricably with this is that the same disapproving supporters always focus on individual players for their complaints and criticism ... sorry, I meant their "opinion".

They never discuss the team, its functioning as a collective and the communication between its various parts. You'd think it was it's a competition of individuals, whereas football is probably the ultimate team game. There's no scope for the concept that players can be coached, that the team can be coached, that the player at 20 is not the same player as the player at 25.

I have a little ulterior thing that I do, mainly on match threads, which is almost always to reference the failings or successes of "the midfield" instead of name-checking Winks or Højbjerg for criticism or praise. I think it's obvious and pointed, even slightly mischievous, but no one ever notices. They just go back to ranting on about Winks (or whoever) being "useless" and "always passing sideways", or Højbjerg being "a donkey".

The same people always put their so-called "opinion" in terms of what a player is, as opposed to what he just did. Winks "is shit". Højbjerg "is a donkey". Kulusevski "is slow". It's not even a proper "opinion", because there's no content, no trigger for debate. It's just personal abuse, motivated by a combination of inattention and prejudice, masquerading as a point of view.

I think we should institute one of those automatic edit things like the one we have for the word "****". Every time someone uses the word "opinion", it should be replaced by "I have nothing useful to say"

It's a team game. Scarcely anyone ever talks about the team. It's all about individuals. Which makes it bullshit.

 

[CantSmileWithoutYou]

No mate, your ‘fuck off’ comment wins that hands down (and is now in the running for dick comment of the month).

Whilst I don’t agree with @kd2000’s view on Son, I really appreciate them explaining his thoughts, and I do think Son has been bang out of form for a while now, possibly a victim of being over played. But, even when not playing well he scores and assists, and for me that’s the sign of a world class player. Son may not be the best fit as a WF coming into feet and creating in Conte’s system, but his movement is world class. Pace, intelligent piercing runs, ability to stay onside, and a clinical 1-on-1 finisher.

There’s no way Son was MOTM (Bentancur, Romero and Kane were all much better across the 90 mins)

I didn't say Son was man of the match, it was the comment "I'm not a fan of Son"... Really???

Must be in a group of one as a Spurs reporter...

 

[spids]

Amidst all the justified narration about our inconsistency, there is a different way to look at this, which is that we have won 4 of our last 5 league matches (5 of our last 7), during which time we have scored 16 goals and conceded 4 in the last 5.

Perhaps more importantly, we have started to see a consistent style of play during the past 7 matches that resembles Conte-ball as we know it. Gone are the 20-minute periods in every match when our midfield would be incapable of completing two simple passes in succession, with minimal movement off the ball and players constantly being caught in possession.

As others have implied, the two new players have made a great difference because of their composure and calmness on the ball, but the improvement has affected everyone, as the passage of play in defence on the right during the second half showed today - no panic, just keep passing the ball until a route appears to clear it to a teammate.

Bentancur epitomised that today: I reckon he was channelling Luka Modric today. He was often to be found in a Modric-like lake of space in the centre of the pitch, with enough time to consider whether to run or pass, but whenever he received the ball under pressure, he always had the first step away from potential trouble planned out - very Modric in style.

We haven't had someone who can retain the ball under pressure like that since Dembélé left. The difference in grip was drastic.

Kane, Romero and Kulusevski also excelled; Doherty had his crucial moments; Son did what Son does twice; Davies and Dier were inconspicuously capable; Højbjerg was OK, in a role that mainly called for him to nullify Rice; only Reguilon had a disappointing game.

But Bentancur was the best and most effective player on the pitch, by a long way.

It's fun to support a team that scores goals and has a style. Perhaps this summer can be approached with excitement, rather than trepidation.

This is such a great post ...

P5 W4 D0 L1 F16 A5

That is some serious form, especially when considering the game we lost was away at Old Trafford and most neutrals would say that we were unlucky to lose after being the better team.

 

[ohtottenham!]

I definitely wasnt looking to criticize Son in my post, was trying to point out all the good he does!

But yep, agreed on this point, he's getting way too much slander for the times something doesnt come off, even in matches when we have reaped the reward for his endeavours.

I get where you were coming from and fully agree with your main point, which was that the phrase, "I'm not a fan of Son..." basically makes no sense whatsoever and was the main trigger for the grief the poster got from others! I found it jarring to read.

I mean after 7 years of Son's wonderful contributions to this club, for a Spurs fan to start any sentence with that phrase doesn't really stack up in terms of logic apart from anything else. Truly baffling! The poster tried to justify his "opinion" but really couldn't with any credibility because he'd have to literally ignore all the historically obvious positives Son has given and continues to give to Spurs.

It was, "Yeah, but what have the Romans ever done for us?" parody kind of stuff. I didn't like the personal insults directed at the poster but no surprise he got some grief.

 

[CanadaSpurs]

Not a fan of Son… Christ… where would this club be over the last four or five years without him…

 

[spids]

I didn't say Son was man of the match, it was the comment "I'm not a fan of Son"... Really???

Must be in a group of one as a Spurs reporter...

And I did not say you did. I tend to use paragraphs in my posts for a reason - to separate out sub-topics in my posts. The first paragraph was aimed at the person I quoted. The second paragraph was my thoughts on Son in general. My third paragraph was a comment on whether he was MOTM in the most recent game.

 

[CantSmileWithoutYou]

And I did not say you did. I tend to use paragraphs in my posts for a reason - to separate out sub-topics in my posts. The first paragraph was aimed at the person I quoted. The second paragraph was my thoughts on Son in general. My third paragraph was a comment on whether he was MOTM in the most recent game.

Fair enough, my apologies for misunderstanding

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Fair enough, my apologies for misunderstanding

Nice!

I'll also apologise for grumbling about people looking for things to criticise, rather than look at the collective that @davidmatzdorf explained so much better than I was able to.

I didn't mean to drag the discussion down.

 

[sammyj]

Some great performances.

Wasn't all bad, sure they were a little wasteful at time but Doherty did really well for the first goal.

And West Ham’s first goal

 

[SpursSince1980]

And West Ham’s first goal

Oy vey! ?

 

[daveduvet]

What goes inextricably with this is that the same disapproving supporters always focus on individual players for their complaints and criticism ... sorry, I meant their "opinion".

They never discuss the team, its functioning as a collective and the communication between its various parts. You'd think it was it's a competition of individuals, whereas football is probably the ultimate team game. There's no scope for the concept that players can be coached, that the team can be coached, that the player at 20 is not the same player as the player at 25.

I have a little ulterior thing that I do, mainly on match threads, which is almost always to reference the failings or successes of "the midfield" instead of name-checking Winks or Højbjerg for criticism or praise. I think it's obvious and pointed, even slightly mischievous, but no one ever notices. They just go back to ranting on about Winks (or whoever) being "useless" and "always passing sideways", or Højbjerg being "a donkey".

The same people always put their so-called "opinion" in terms of what a player is, as opposed to what he just did. Winks "is shit". Højbjerg "is a donkey". Kulusevski "is slow". It's not even a proper "opinion", because there's no content, no trigger for debate. It's just personal abuse, motivated by a combination of inattention and prejudice, masquerading as a point of view.

I think we should institute one of those automatic edit things like the one we have for the word "****". Every time someone uses the word "opinion", it should be replaced by "I have nothing useful to say"

It's a team game. Scarcely anyone ever talks about the team. It's all about individuals. Which makes it bullshit.

Good points. What I noticed more overtly within the game was that when our wingbacks are pinned to their respective lines Peh was dropping deep to protect the back three and picking up the loose. … tge ‘team’ aspect that you mention is what I saw too: each individual is the part of the whole: almost synchronised - when one cog drops, another engages elsewhere to retain the ticking over … for me, Sunday’s game was the most fluid of performances I’ve witnessed thus far …

 

[dricha1]

See, these posts optimise what I said a couple of weeks ago.

The modern day "supporter" spends more time looking for what they don't like, something to criticise, rather than appreciate the good that is happening right in front of them.

Each to their own, but I'll never understand it & I don't think certain supporters will ever be happy. I think it's a shame.

“Modern day supporter” is a bit OTT considering I’ve supported Spurs since the early eighties….

My point was that I felt there were 2 or 3 other players worthy of MOTM ahead of Son, Bentancur, Romero who did really well against Antonio and Kane who linked play and assisted. Son is a fantastic player but on Sunday imho he wasn’t MOTM, in fact choosing Son as MOTM because he scored two goals is the very definition of Modern Day Supporter.

 

[Gilzeanking]

OK , think I get the message . Sonny is completely beyond any criticism . Thanks so much to the wise ones here who have made this clear . A football forum where people come to exchange views on all aspects of our club has made a decision .
Sonny must only be praised . Hugo once attempted to physically attack Son for laziness , if Son is lazy is it not allowed to mention it ? Clearly not .

All players can be discussed . Praise or criticism if well argued are entirely acceptable .

That's what a football forum is