Mopo's (apparent) tactical limitations

[mendesstormer]

There's a lot of talk on here about how Poch is tactically limited, or perhaps over rigid would be a better way to describe it. 4-2-3-1 every week, regardless of the opposition (and players available). But yesterday, I had the distinct impression we played 4-3-3, at least until Dembele was replaced by Lamela. Anyone else agree? I think there's a site where you can get average positions for all the players, but I don't know which it is - anyone care to illuminate me on this?

The other thing that is impressing me about Poch recently - he's willing to experiment with a player's positioning in order to get the best out of them. Dembele, Dier and Carroll all examples of this. And MP specifically referred to it with reference to Dembele, how it's been difficult to find his best position. Dier some may feel isn't best suited to DM, but I think given time he could prove to be really solid (if unspectacular) there.

I think the thing with MP is he is by nature quite conservative. My impression is he spent the first season getting used to the squad, and hence wanted to stick to the one formation. Now that he's in to his second season, he's identified exactly which players to get rid of (and few would disagree) and I think he's going to be a bit more expansive with tactical formation and player positioning.

 

[CowInAComa]

I would like to agree with you but as we narrowly lost at OT, Poch out.

 

[mendesstormer]

I would like to agree with you but as we narrowly lost at OT, Poch out.

Well, yes, obviously ... but maybe we could pass this on to his new employers?

 

[Mr-T]

Tactical limitations seems to be a common complaint levelled at all our recent managers when results go against us - Tim was too gung-ho, AVB too much sideways passing, Arry was labelled a good man manager but tactically niaive, Ramos was just bizarre, BMJ was criticised for making substitutions too late, Santini was too defensive and Hoddle used an outdated 3 at the back.

Now while some of these accusations may have been justified it can't be the case that all of these managers were plain shit at tactics can it?

The defence usually offered by fans of each of these managers is that they don't have the players to fit their systems, after a couple of transfer windows this excuse incorporates a dollop of 'blame Levy/Baldini/Comolli/Arnesen for not buying the right players' to keep it valid.

Personally I think it's more to do with all these managers sticking too much their tactical systems and not having a 'plan B'. It doesn't bother me too much, it's something that gets levelled at most of the top Managers - we've heard Woolwich fans say the same thing about Wenger many times when things haven't been going their way. Even Guardiola at Barca had this said about him and he had pretty much the perfect players for his system.

I don't think it necessarily means a manager is tactically inept if we lose, its usually just the way it looks when another team gets the better of us either through luck or superior effort or sometimes through having better players - sometimes opposing teams tactics just work out a bit better, sadly 'twas ever thus.

 

[Larryjanta]

You're right on positions. On my stream, the showed the average positions and we were playing a lopsided 4-3-3. Something like this



............................Kane............................

Chadli.............................Eriksen.............


............Bentakeb...................Dembele....

............................Dier..............................

There was also quite a bit of space between the front three and the midfield three.

I don't get as bogged down in formations as everyone else tbh, we do seem to adjust depending on tea,m and we could have easily nicked one and won 1-0 yesterday and the Dier decision would be seen as a master stroke.

My one area of concern would be on how we break down teams that sit deep. Only Harry really seemed to have a plan here which was mainly about width and two strikers but it something Poch needs to work on. I definitely think personnel is an issue here but we don't seem to be addressing it which worries me.

 

[mendesstormer]

You're right on positions. On my stream, the showed the average positions and we were playing a lopsided 4-3-3. Something like this



............................Kane............................

Chadli.............................Eriksen.............


............Bentakeb...................Dembele....

............................Dier..............................

There was also quite a bit of space between the front three and the midfield three.

I don't get as bogged down in formations as everyone else tbh, we do seem to adjust depending on tea,m and we could have easily nicked one and won 1-0 yesterday and the Dier decision would be seen as a master stroke.

My one area of concern would be on how we break down teams that sit deep. Only Harry really seemed to have a plan here which was mainly about width and two strikers but it something Poch needs to work on. I definitely think personnel is an issue here but we don't seem to be addressing it which worries me.

Aah. so I wasn't the only one who thought 4-3-3. Agree totally about needing a plan to break down teams that sit deep. Think we need to buy another good genuine wide man with real skill and an eye for the final ball - don't know if N'jie has all that (or whether we're really after him).

 

[Ironskullll]

There's a story about Bill Nicholson about how he saw how to combat Alf Ramsey's deep lying inside forward tactic so effectively used by Ipswich in the 61/61 season. He didn't have sufficient faith in the players to implement it, nor did the players themselves. Spurs missed out on a second double as a result of losses to Ipswich, who won the league that campaign. In the charity shield game at the start of 62/63 he saw to it that it was dealt with. Spurs won 5-1, other teams followed suit; Ipswich didn't have the resources to adapt and were soon back where they came from. Besides being a nice story, the point is that coaches/managers might have their own reasons for seeming tactically conservative besides just a lack of tactical nous...

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

There's a story about Bill Nicholson about how he saw how to combat Alf Ramsey's deep lying inside forward tactic so effectively used by Ipswich in the 61/61 season. He didn't have sufficient faith in the players to implement it, nor did the players themselves. Spurs missed out on a second double as a result of losses to Ipswich, who won the league that campaign. In the charity shield game at the start of 62/63 he saw to it that it was dealt with. Spurs won 5-1, other teams followed suit; Ipswich didn't have the resources to adapt and were soon back where they came from. Besides being a nice story, the point is that coaches/managers might have their own reasons for seeming tactically conservative besides just a lack of tactical nous...

In this story I'd say Pochettino is the Ipswich manager and his 'philosophy' will get found out sooner or later and all this high line high intensity football will see us trounced 5-1 a few times.

Good managers adapt.
I don't see any adaption.

 

[dimiSpur]

In this story I'd say Pochettino is the Ipswich manager and his 'philosophy' will get found out sooner or later and all this high line high intensity football will see us trounced 5-1 a few times.

Good managers adapt.
I don't see any adaption.

I think the Mick McCarthy comparisons are uncalled for.

 

[Syn_13]

I honestly didn't see yesterday's formation as being that different to what he usually does. Dembele has a tendency to play centrally so he'll spend less time out wide than players like Lamela, Townsend and Chadli. However, I don't think he played as a central midfielder at all. I thought he looked a little out of place there and our midfield had very little fluidity or connection between them. I didn't see it being much of a 4-3-3 and more of a 4-something-1, which is pretty much how we've constantly been for the last few years, even under AVB.

I understand he's trying things out, like using Dier as a dedicated tackler in the middle of the pitch, to alleviate pressure on the the defence, but I can't see it working for long. Dier is a very good young player, and I reckon he can be a quality centre back, but right now he's making me think of Phil Jones. That fella just gets shoe-horned wherever people need a space to fill and it's hurt his development. Dier needs more games at CB rather than DM or RB. He makes for decent RB cover, but he hasn't quite got the positional sense required for DM, nor is he quick enough when receiving and distributing the ball.

Personally, I feel that he's using Dier there because Mason's not back 100%, the youngsters are too inexperienced, and also because we haven't landed that CM that he feels he needs. Once Mason is back fully fit, and if/when we have another CM in we'll not see much of Dier in that position. I also think he doesn't rate Dembele as a centre mid as he tends to play him further forward, or perhaps that he just thinks him and Bentaleb aren't a good pairing.

 

[newbie]

I honestly didn't see yesterday's formation as being that different to what he usually does. Dembele has a tendency to play centrally so he'll spend less time out wide than players like Lamela, Townsend and Chadli. However, I don't think he played as a central midfielder at all. I thought he looked a little out of place there and our midfield had very little fluidity or connection between them. I didn't see it being much of a 4-3-3 and more of a 4-something-1, which is pretty much how we've constantly been for the last few years, even under AVB.

I understand he's trying things out, like using Dier as a dedicated tackler in the middle of the pitch, to alleviate pressure on the the defence, but I can't see it working for long. Dier is a very good young player, and I reckon he can be a quality centre back, but right now he's making me think of Phil Jones. That fella just gets shoe-horned wherever people need a space to fill and it's hurt his development. Dier needs more games at CB rather than DM or RB. He makes for decent RB cover, but he hasn't quite got the positional sense required for DM, nor is he quick enough when receiving and distributing the ball.

Personally, I feel that he's using Dier there because Mason's not back 100%, the youngsters are too inexperienced, and also because we haven't landed that CM that he feels he needs. Once Mason is back fully fit, and if/when we have another CM in we'll not see much of Dier in that position. I also think he doesn't rate Dembele as a centre mid as he tends to play him further forward, or perhaps that he just thinks him and Bentaleb aren't a good pairing.

I think Phil jones always being injured has hurt his development more

 

[mpickard2087]

I think Dembele is a natural 'halfway house' between a 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1/4-2-4. But it's still primarily Poch's usual template with the cm2 more disciplined and Dembele with license to roam as part of the three behind the striker.

As for the tactical nous of any manager, it isn't just selections and what formation you put them in. It's how the gameplan is carried out.

If you are a team that is possession-focused but then say struggles to play out from the back and doesn't demonstrate a fundamental understanding/appreciation of that way of playing, such as the ability to open up passing lanes to play forward and having little sub-groups of players whose movements and interactions are harmonious and allow us to play around teams... Or a team that apparently wants to press but rarely looks able to close down consistently as a unit and for all three lines (attack, midfield, defence) to be either moving up or down the pitch depending on the situation and being organised as one... This does reflect on the manager.

As I said, it isn't just about selections and formations.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

Spurs basically tell you the formation when announcing the squad.

Vorm; walker, Vertonghen Alderweireld, Davies; Dier, Bentaleb; dembele, Eriksen, Chadli; Kane

 

[double0]

Our system is flexible and people shouldn't get hung up on formation. Pochettinho is very astute and has a philosophy which over a period of time is far more productive. We controlled large parts of the game against United it was just a lack of concentration / sloppy play that let us down.

 

[Bware]

A lot of managers do not see a formation in terms of numbers. Each player has a responsibility with and without the ball, and if you want to apply numbers to it then this would change depending on the team with possession.

To talk about the tactical limitation, there was a clear difference in the approach to this game compared with the last season. Very different because we did not follow and chase around the pitch wildly like last season and allow Manchester United to exploit the space left. This was more considered in the pressure we applies in each area of the pitch. I think this is an example that it is not the same for every game the manager's approach.

 

[lukespurs7]

There's a lot of talk on here about how Poch is tactically limited, or perhaps over rigid would be a better way to describe it. 4-2-3-1 every week, regardless of the opposition (and players available). But yesterday, I had the distinct impression we played 4-3-3, at least until Dembele was replaced by Lamela. Anyone else agree? I think there's a site where you can get average positions for all the players, but I don't know which it is - anyone care to illuminate me on this?

The other thing that is impressing me about Poch recently - he's willing to experiment with a player's positioning in order to get the best out of them. Dembele, Dier and Carroll all examples of this. And MP specifically referred to it with reference to Dembele, how it's been difficult to find his best position. Dier some may feel isn't best suited to DM, but I think given time he could prove to be really solid (if unspectacular) there.

I think the thing with MP is he is by nature quite conservative. My impression is he spent the first season getting used to the squad, and hence wanted to stick to the one formation. Now that he's in to his second season, he's identified exactly which players to get rid of (and few would disagree) and I think he's going to be a bit more expansive with tactical formation and player positioning.

This is a difficult one, I agree with a lot of this actually.

I think with Potch there are positives and negatives. As a manager either you adapt the system to suit your players or adapt your players/squad to suit the system you want to play(Potch is doing the latter). Clearly he didn't think that the squad he inherited was either good enough or the right fit to play the way he wants us too. At times last season we looked fantastic, mostly in the big games actually but against lower opposition it was worrying at times how we looked second best.

Lets take the Manchester United game which I went too, positives were that we looked much much more solid and as you've stated it is refreshing that Potch trys players in different positions e.g. Dier CDM and Dembele RAM BUT I hope this is only because Mason wasn't fit and we're looking to sign players in these positions because if he genuinely thinks we could play a season with Dier at CDM and Dembele at RAM and that we may either win something or come top4 he's lost it.

I disagree our football is the same as under AVB, against Man.U we looked like we had a plan but were just far too cautious mostly due to the fact we have no pacey attacking outlets and the movement/shape attackingwise is wrong so the defenders and CDM's have little to pass too.

I'm hoping we can buy 2-3 players of real quality in CDM, RAM and ST who will fit Potchs high pressing system and then we will start to really see what he's about.

I don't think he's a bad manager and is slowly developing us nice addressing different weaknesses as he goes. He clearly understood how our defence was a huge weakness last year letting in so many goals so is trying to rectify that but at the same time we need to play with more pace and intensity otherwise we won't score many goals either.

I always wanted De Boer but I think Potch is decent. I'm not sure how fair it is to say he is tactically rigid and inept rather that he's not had the right players to suit his style. E.G. If we had Swansea's front 3 instead of ours I think we'd have got a point vs Man.U yesterday. I'm really hoping by the end of this transfer window if we sign the right players then over the next few years he will shape this young squad into the sytle he wants and we will be more solid but better to watch.

COYS.

 

[mendesstormer]

Yeah, I wonder if De Boer would have done any better at Spurs than MP is? All things considered, I think Poch has hit a pretty good balance between performance and results so far (performance could be better/more exciting, but we couldn't really have expected too much better results wise), while bringing on a lot of young players. Not a bad start at all, if he can keep developing, as I've indicated I think he's showing signs of.

 

[Jamturk]

Is de Boer still at Ajax

 

[mendesstormer]

I I didn't see it being much of a 4-3-3 and more of a 4-something-1, which is pretty much how we've constantly been for the last few years, even under AVB.

Well then, it was 4-3-2-1, although I thought the front 3 exchanged positions quite effectively at times. The point is he recognised the need to stiffen up the midfield away to Man U. Which is definitely a step in the right direction.

 

[CJMurray]

Spurs basically tell you the formation when announcing the squad.

Vorm; walker, Vertonghen Alderweireld, Davies; Dier, Bentaleb; dembele, Eriksen, Chadli; Kane

I think that's just the social media guy's interpretation of the team sheet though, IIRC they were wrong with the way we lined up against Milan.