My only problem with the Villas Boas regime

[idontgetit]

Awesome post OP, it's point for point like something I ranted on about far less eloquently in another thread. One thing I'd say is that it might work better with Defoe and Bale switching wings. Defoe loves the inside left channel and is a pro at cutting inside and getting a shot off quickly. Hopefully in a system set up for this style Bale will get more out of playing on the right like he does for Wales. With us I don't think it's worked for him on the right so far as our system makes him more of a winger. Them two cutting in from wide and Adebayor causing havoc with his pace and height up front will be truly dangerous. We'll then have the worlds best super sub in Lennon to come on and terrorize any knackered fullbacks.

 

[only1waddle]

Great thread, i know we all laugh at Brendan Rodgers but i have to respect his approach to his squad selection, without doubt he has sold himself short up front but it was a bold move to go in and chop large chunks (that's you Andy) out of the picture.
Whilst we all know that this approach would have given Levy a heart attack, it is certainly the only way to properly transition a team for a manager who plays a 'system', hence our rather ramshackle performances..
Personally speaking if he gets 6th or above then i would give him free reign to buy who he wants from player sales next summer..

 

[StartingPrice]

The thing is though SP, this is where I disagree with this statement. I don't think this is a transitional period. When a manager resigns, you are left somewhat in the lurch the majority of the time and have to then think of the next step.

Levy made a decision to take the club forward, by sacking the previous regime and bringing in the man he wanted himself (if not his number 1 choice it was definitely one of his top 3-4 I would think.), by the that notion we need to be trying to focus on the positives and at least seeing a glimmer of hope that the man that has been brought in is doing things differently to try to right the wrongs of the previous.

You are right, we are missing a few first teamers at the moment, but you would hope that the rest of the squad would be showing signs of what AVB is drumming into them in training. Honestly, apart from against the equivalent of a League 2 side in Maribor, last week, I have seen very, very little signs of this so far.

It is true that Levy planned for this change, so, in that sense, we haven't been left in the lurch as manager is sacked/resigns mid-season (or just before a season starts - which must be about as bad). But it is transitional in the sense that we don't have a long established coach, with the players/staff deeply imbued with his methodologies. We have a new coach (in real terms), still getting to know his players and schooling them to his ways. The loss of 3 top players and the lengthy injury list isn't helping that.

With reference to the interview posted by Kaz, above, I think you can see just how vital this is. So much of his emphasis is on ball circulation, that the absence of a genuinely dynamic ball-playing midfielder (please, let's not ) must be truly crippling to his notions on the correct way to play football.

Where I have seen improvement was as his methodologies looked to be taking hold, were in the later matches with Dembélé, before his somewhat untimely injury (and even he is like a half-way house in this regard, who just happens to have the advantage in carrying the ball forward himself and disrupting the area between midfield and attack - which is what makes him, potentially, as valuable to the team as a Modric/Moutinho type player). Without Dembélé, we have been left, primarily, with a half-fit and cumbersome THudd (not knocking him, just suited to a totally different system). We all know Maribor are not top level opponents, but once he had someone on the pitch who actually did circulate the ball in the way he intends, in Tommy Carroll, I think we got a better look at how AVB intends us to play. I would pair Maribor's averageness with Carroll's lack of experience and youth, and say that was a fair approximation. What would be ideal would be Dembélé competing with Moutinho, and/or playing further forward, with young Carroll, getting a chance to understudy. Just Dembélé with Carroll as understudy, may just about be enough, if Dembélé hadn't become injured so Gawddam early in AVB's reign.

I would stress, again, it is a transitional period, we have a lot of injuries, some of them vital, and even still, even if we lose to the Goons we will only be two points behind them, and still in touch with the top 4 positions, having played the top 4 teams in only the first third of the season, and three of those being away games - technically three of the four most difficult games of our season.

 

[Adam456]

Before I go any further, I’d like to say that I’m an AVB fan and think he will get it right in the end. I’d also say that given the players we’ve lost over the summer and the injuries we’ve had we’re not in such a bad position in the table and we’ve actually become a reasonably difficult side to beat (of course this is generally through holding shape, smothering the opponent and hitting on the break). I would still like to hope we’ll challenge for 4thbut like anybody I’m worried about hanging on to Bale if we don’t.

I'll let go of the Lloris and Adebayor situations for now was they’ve been well discussed and nearly all of us agree. You have to assume, as some have said, that he has been doing that to win the dressing room and because Ade hasn’t been training too well. Adebayor was excellent on Sunday and you hope at least that one will change. Substitutions made have been well discussed – particularly the lack of use of Adebayor towards the end of games but, again, I’ll bow to the fact that AVB is at training every day, not me.

My main frustration with AVB so far is his failure to get ahead of the curve and make a change when we’re ahead or doing better than expected. He only seems to change things when we’re terrible. At Old Trafford when they got it back to 3-2 after 53 mins he waits until the 69thwith us under immense pressure to make a change but somehow we clung on.

Then against Chelsea we somehow (minus also Bale) recovered to take a 2-1 lead. We were still 2-1 up after 65 mins and a draw would have been a fantastic result considering our injuries but he just left things as they were and we conceded. Only then did he bring on Livermore but Chelsea had the momentum and the bit between their teeth.

Then, on Sunday, same thing yet again. We were a bit lucky to be 1-0 up but we’d defended quite well. But to go on like that substantially into the second half was really tossing a coin as to whether we’d concede or hold out (and possibly get a 2nd on the break). It needed more positive intervention. I accept that in the absence of Parker and Dembele the options were limited (Livermore ) but we could still have done something. Perhaps Naughton on, Dempsey off and Vertonghen (who was out of position quite a bit at LB anyway) to DM. Even just a straight swap of Defoe for Dempsey would have made a big difference as the Citeh full backs would have had to hang back a bit more to guard against the extra pace down the channels. We could have done this at 60 mins but didn’t and conceded at 65. Worse still as the more attacking Maicon had come on at 56 (obviously enough said about the dreadful, dreadful subs after that).

I suppose it's worth bearing in mind that we've been watching many of these players closely for years whereas he's only had a few months (plus from a distance last season) but he is supposed to be an encyclopedia of players and a master of the dossier so you'd expect him to have got them all by now.

Hoping this changes before the transfer window because no matter who we bring in we could be too far behind the CL places

Putting my optomistic hat back on - CO AVB and YS !

 

[mpickard2087]

It is true that Levy planned for this change, so, in that sense, we haven't been left in the lurch as manager is sacked/resigns mid-season (or just before a season starts - which must be about as bad). But it is transitional in the sense that we don't have a long established coach, with the players/staff deeply imbued with his methodologies. We have a new coach (in real terms), still getting to know his players and schooling them to his ways. The loss of 3 top players and the lengthy injury list isn't helping that.

With reference to the interview posted by Kaz, above, I think you can see just how vital this is. So much of his emphasis is on ball circulation, that the absence of a genuinely dynamic ball-playing midfielder (please, let's not ) must be truly crippling to his notions on the correct way to play football.

Where I have seen improvement was as his methodologies looked to be taking hold, were in the later matches with Dembélé, before his somewhat untimely injury (and even he is like a half-way house in this regard, who just happens to have the advantage in carrying the ball forward himself and disrupting the area between midfield and attack - which is what makes him, potentially, as valuable to the team as a Modric/Moutinho type player). Without Dembélé, we have been left, primarily, with a half-fit and cumbersome THudd (not knocking him, just suited to a totally different system). We all know Maribor are not top level opponents, but once he had someone on the pitch who actually did circulate the ball in the way he intends, in Tommy Carroll, I think we got a better look at how AVB intends us to play. I would pair Maribor's averageness with Carroll's lack of experience and youth, and say that was a fair approximation. What would be ideal would be Dembélé competing with Moutinho, and/or playing further forward, with young Carroll, getting a chance to understudy. Just Dembélé with Carroll as understudy, may just about be enough, if Dembélé hadn't become injured so Gawddam early in AVB's reign.

I would stress, again, it is a transitional period, we have a lot of injuries, some of them vital, and even still, even if we lose to the Goons we will only be two points behind them, and still in touch with the top 4 positions, having played the top 4 teams in only the first third of the season, and three of those being away games - technically three of the four most difficult games of our season.

True to an extent that he has been dealt some bad cards with transfers and injuries, but I lose sympathy for him because of where we are right now he's not even trying to change things and just sticks with the status quo. Huddlestone and Dempsey do not bring ball circulation and dynamism, yet he persists. As you say when Carroll came in there was a marked difference, poor opposition or not we had least had someone moving the ball around, but then he's straight out of the team again. We've got a number of promising youngsters banging down the door, there are options there, we should use them and see if they can add some of the missing ingredients.

 

[double0]

I think Lennon will only ever be effective in a 4-4-2. He needs two strikers in the box to help balance his poor crossing hit rate. As a WF he is not suited as he simple can't strike a ball well enough. As an impact sub to change up the game though he could be awesome.

His crossing funnily enough for me isnt the problem, him not going for goal more is killing his game.

Lennon gets into good position then cuts back instead of having some guts and going for goal.

I agee with the theme of your post about building for the future it's a well constructed piece.

 

[shelfboy68]

Before I go any further, I’d like to say that I’m an AVB fan and think he will get it right in the end. I’d also say that given the players we’ve lost over the summer and the injuries we’ve had we’re not in such a bad position in the table and we’ve actually become a reasonably difficult side to beat (of course this is generally through holding shape, smothering the opponent and hitting on the break). I would still like to hope we’ll challenge for 4thbut like anybody I’m worried about hanging on to Bale if we don’t.

I'll let go of the Lloris and Adebayor situations for now was they’ve been well discussed and nearly all of us agree. You have to assume, as some have said, that he has been doing that to win the dressing room and because Ade hasn’t been training too well. Adebayor was excellent on Sunday and you hope at least that one will change. Substitutions made have been well discussed – particularly the lack of use of Adebayor towards the end of games but, again, I’ll bow to the fact that AVB is at training every day, not me.

My main frustration with AVB so far is his failure to get ahead of the curve and make a change when we’re ahead or doing better than expected. He only seems to change things when we’re terrible. At Old Trafford when they got it back to 3-2 after 53 mins he waits until the 69thwith us under immense pressure to make a change but somehow we clung on.

Then against Chelsea we somehow (minus also Bale) recovered to take a 2-1 lead. We were still 2-1 up after 65 mins and a draw would have been a fantastic result considering our injuries but he just left things as they were and we conceded. Only then did he bring on Livermore but Chelsea had the momentum and the bit between their teeth.

Then, on Sunday, same thing yet again. We were a bit lucky to be 1-0 up but we’d defended quite well. But to go on like that substantially into the second half was really tossing a coin as to whether we’d concede or hold out (and possibly get a 2nd on the break). It needed more positive intervention. I accept that in the absence of Parker and Dembele the options were limited (Livermore ) but we could still have done something. Perhaps Naughton on, Dempsey off and Vertonghen (who was out of position quite a bit at LB anyway) to DM. Even just a straight swap of Defoe for Dempsey would have made a big difference as the Citeh full backs would have had to hang back a bit more to guard against the extra pace down the channels. We could have done this at 60 mins but didn’t and conceded at 65. Worse still as the more attacking Maicon had come on at 56 (obviously enough said about the dreadful, dreadful subs after that).

I suppose it's worth bearing in mind that we've been watching many of these players closely for years whereas he's only had a few months (plus from a distance last season) but he is supposed to be an encyclopedia of players and a master of the dossier so you'd expect him to have got them all by now.

Hoping this changes before the transfer window because no matter who we bring in we could be too far behind the CL places

Putting my optomistic hat back on - CO AVB and YS !

The problem is that we don't hold our shape as 16 goals conceded will testify to that or smother the opposition nor do we hit on the break but other than that we are progressing nicely.

 

[StartingPrice]

True to an extent that he has been dealt some bad cards with transfers and injuries, but I lose sympathy for him because of where we are right now he's not even trying to change things and just sticks with the status quo. Huddlestone and Dempsey do not bring ball circulation and dynamism, yet he persists. As you say when Carroll came in there was a marked difference, poor opposition or not we had least had someone moving the ball around, but then he's straight out of the team again. We've got a number of promising youngsters banging down the door, there are options there, we should use them and see if they can add some of the missing ingredients.

But that is the problem - if AVB had put Carroll in and it had been a disaster, it would not only have engendered just as many AVB out threads, but may also have been severely damaging to the lad's progress.

I wouldn't read too much into his inclusions, or otherwise, of young players so far - he has done so when feasible, we haven't played that many games and, at the end of the day, he has had to pay some heed to results (jeez, it's bad enough as it is, imagine if he had just totally thrown caution to the wind, played a load of kids and said sod the results ).

Ultimately, the youth-system is a key cornerstone (maybe even the lynch pin) of Daniel Levy's strategic vision. Mr Redknapp did integrate plenty of young players into the team (someone made a post on this, the other day, with a full list), but he is, really, a manager and not a coach. A lot of the focus, behind the scenes, as in the work of Tim Sherwood, has been in inculcating a club style into the lads. Mr Redknapp. If the rumours were correct, AVB has been hired because he is a coach, and more inclined towards this strategic vision (this argument isn't intended to be a pro or anti Redknapp/AVB argument, so please, people, let's not make it one ). So, I would be expecting more promotion through the ranks in the future.

 

[mpickard2087]

But Carroll is now 20 and has been around the senior squad for a while now, we aren't calling him up out of nowhere. At some point these guys have to be given a chance, some may sink and some swim. You can only take an educated guess call on what you see... his skillset and game is something the team is crying out for, we can't buy anyone till January so until then I think we need to look at what we already have and who's in the pecking order.

I think most would applaud this, I cant see anyone moaning if a Hudd or a Dempsey were ejected from the team. Yes we need results, but we arent really getting them, we most certainly aren't getting the performances, and a lot of the components that go into getting them (ball retention & distribution, creativity, guile etc etc) is sadly lacking and will continue to if we stick with the status quo. I think most fans would understand that.

 

[Adam456]

The problem is that we don't hold our shape as 16 goals conceded will testify to that or smother the opposition nor do we hit on the break but other than that we are progressing nicely.

Not done it all the time no but that's how we've got the points we have

 

[StartingPrice]

But Carroll is now 20 and has been around the senior squad for a while now, we aren't calling him up out of nowhere. At some point these guys have to be given a chance, some may sink and some swim. You can only take an educated guess call on what you see... his skillset and game is something the team is crying out for, we can't buy anyone till January so until then I think we need to look at what we already have and who's in the pecking order.

I think most would applaud this, I cant see anyone moaning if a Hudd or a Dempsey were ejected from the team. Yes we need results, but we arent really getting them, we most certainly aren't getting the performances, and a lot of the components that go into getting them (ball retention & distribution, creativity, guile etc etc) is sadly lacking and will continue to if we stick with the status quo. I think most fans would understand that.

I would say you were preaching to the converted on Tommy Carroll, but I was probably the original preacher, as I have been bigginh him up for a couple of years, now.

Jean-Luc, you amaze me, you can command a start-ship across galaxies, initiating numerous 1st contacts and surviving assimilation by the Borg...and yet sometimes you can be so naive :giggle: Most wouldn't applaud it if he put carroll into the team. A large number of Spurs fans would whinge if AVB farted and it wasn't moist enough, and an equal and opposite number would whinge if it had even a hint of being runny And you ignore the issue of the damage it would do to the lad's career if the experiment failed.

As I said, I have been bigging Carroll up for a couple of years, now, and I do think AVB has plans for him. I noticed, in the preseason tour (I think in the New York match), that AVB came onto the pitch, shook the hands, or patted the backs of all our players, and then stood with young Tommy in the centre circle pointing to places on the pitch and discussing things with him. But, and this is a very important point, there is a big difference between introducing him to the 1st team as an understudy, over a couple of seasons, putting him in when the pressure is off, and dropping in at the deep end, which is what putting him in straight away during a transitional phase would be. It is also the case that if he did put him in, most of the folk who are whingeing now would be frothing at the mouth about AVB repeating his mistakes at Chelsea by playing a kid in place of an experienced player like THudd

On this last point, I do think that maybe he is focusing on trying to keep the squad at large on board - perhaps too much. Against Citeh, his hand was partially tipped by the fact that Adebayor was a running time-bomb and Walker had been carrying a yellow card for a long time. But, for the record, I, personally would have been happy to see Carroll getting half an hour, at least - but, there again, my job doesn't depend on it, does it

 

[mpickard2087]

I would say you were preaching to the converted on Tommy Carroll, but I was probably the original preacher, as I have been bigginh him up for a couple of years, now.

Jean-Luc, you amaze me, you can command a start-ship across galaxies, initiating numerous 1st contacts and surviving assimilation by the Borg...and yet sometimes you can be so naive :giggle: Most wouldn't applaud it if he put carroll into the team. A large number of Spurs fans would whinge if AVB farted and it wasn't moist enough, and an equal and opposite number would whinge if it had even a hint of being runny And you ignore the issue of the damage it would do to the lad's career if the experiment failed.

As I said, I have been bigging Carroll up for a couple of years, now, and I do think AVB has plans for him. I noticed, in the preseason tour (I think in the New York match), that AVB came onto the pitch, shook the hands, or patted the backs of all our players, and then stood with young Tommy in the centre circle pointing to places on the pitch and discussing things with him. But, and this is a very important point, there is a big difference between introducing him to the 1st team as an understudy, over a couple of seasons, putting him in when the pressure is off, and dropping in at the deep end, which is what putting him in straight away during a transitional phase would be. It is also the case that if he did put him in, most of the folk who are whingeing now would be frothing at the mouth about AVB repeating his mistakes at Chelsea by playing a kid in place of an experienced player like THudd

On this last point, I do think that maybe he is focusing on trying to keep the squad at large on board - perhaps too much. Against Citeh, his hand was partially tipped by the fact that Adebayor was a running time-bomb and Walker had been carrying a yellow card for a long time. But, for the record, I, personally would have been happy to see Carroll getting half an hour, at least - but, there again, my job doesn't depend on it, does it

I dont buy not taking a chance because we might destroy his career. If everyone lived by that no-one would ever get a chance. Sound management by AVB, giving the lad confidence that he has a run of games to look forward to and to go and play his game and I think we will see him do well. If he's in and around the squad I presume he's been identified as having the talent, so it just takes some good man-management now.

As for the fans, I was totally disregarding the 'tards who want AVB out regardless, I'm sure they would use it as a stick to beat him with. These lot should be ignored though... we know they aren't sane. I do think with the majority though there wouldnt be any complaints about seeing Huddlestone or Dempsey dropped... in fact I'll say it now, anyone who does think they deserve another start in the forseeable future is totally bonkers IMO.

Im praying that we soon have Dembele back, but honestly that news last week just sounded like they were hoping for the best and it wouldnt surprise me if he has surgery. Even when he is back it doesnt solve all the issues.

Out of interest, what line-up would you put out with the players available now, SP?

 

[Pedro]

How about:

Lloris

Gallas(Kaboul)
Caulker
Vertonghen

Lennon
Sandro
Dembele
Bale

Dempsey(r)
Adebayor(l)
Defoe

Insane. We would get murdered by most teams in the league. Who plays three at the back with 2 wingers? Dempsey and Defoe should not be in our strongest 11.

 

[cwhite02]

I don't see why top 4 (ok, 4th) is not up for grabs or beyond us? The arse are certainly not consistant and I don't see why any of the others are good enough to be consistant enough to be that far away from us.

Jan will be big, we clearly need some strength and depth added back into the squad so I think it could come down to that. A time when it's usually hard to do good business. Over to the AVB, the scouts and Levy.

COYS

 

[beats1]

I do agree with a lot of what you are saying though, I think AVB is starting to do the opposite of what he was doing at Chelsea, I do think there is a very good manager in there but maybe he is showing his age, he is very young and will obviously still be learning his trade.

I think given time he would do really well, to be honest Chelsea came calling too soon for him, if he had stayed at Porto for a few more seasons and gained more experience he may have been better off, but he needs to play his own game as you say and stop listening to others, which I am sure he is without even realising it!

I have to agree some of his decisions at times are baffling, but he will live by the sword and die by the sword. Lets hope he realises sooner rather than later.

I agree he is doing the opposite of what he is doing at Chelsea and frankly his approach for us needs to be the one like Chelsea as we have younger players but instead I feel like he is playing it safe atm and making some strange decisions in the process

 

[lillywhites61]

I agree he is doing the opposite of what he is doing at Chelsea and frankly his approach for us needs to be the one like Chelsea as we have younger players but instead I feel like he is playing it safe atm and making some strange decisions in the process

I really want the guy to succeed as I think he will somewhere and he will do well. So I would live it to be with us. Just needs to play his own game

 

[JollyHappy]

What I like about this thread is that it is well argued, contains really sensible views and respects others arguments - plus it has a positive theme. Please more like this!!

 

[ravo]

Playing Adebayor on the wing would be a good experiment if we lost Lennon to injury

Not a bad idea. He would drift in, which would let Walker overlap.

 

[StartingPrice]

I dont buy not taking a chance because we might destroy his career. If everyone lived by that no-one would ever get a chance. Sound management by AVB, giving the lad confidence that he has a run of games to look forward to and to go and play his game and I think we will see him do well. If he's in and around the squad I presume he's been identified as having the talent, so it just takes some good man-management now.

As for the fans, I was totally disregarding the 'tards who want AVB out regardless, I'm sure they would use it as a stick to beat him with. These lot should be ignored though... we know they aren't sane. I do think with the majority though there wouldnt be any complaints about seeing Huddlestone or Dempsey dropped... in fact I'll say it now, anyone who does think they deserve another start in the forseeable future is totally bonkers IMO.

Im praying that we soon have Dembele back, but honestly that news last week just sounded like they were hoping for the best and it wouldnt surprise me if he has surgery. Even when he is back it doesnt solve all the issues.

Out of interest, what line-up would you put out with the players available now, SP?

Yeah, but what I'm saying about Carroll and the risk to his confidence isn't meant as one stand alone, be-all-and-end-all causal event, but as one among many factors that combine in a complex way to decide his decisions. If we have Dembélé in for a run of games and is performing well, and then put the lad in for a Europa game, preferably after we've qualified, and he has a bit of a mare, AVB can put an arm around him, go back to the drawing board, etc. If the same thing happens when Dembélé is (for the sake of argument) going to be out for another four weeks, and we really need points on the board it will hit far harder - only then Thudd may be quite disgruntled at finally getting himself fit (as fit as an oil tanker can be, maybe) only to be overlooked for a kid. Is all. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see if the lad can make it - just that it is early days for AVB, and maybe he is making decisions with the medium to long term in view, as well as the short term.

Yeah, I know we should just ignore the tards...but I was bought up on the Carnegie spirit

It is hard to say who I would play, right now. I'm presuming you mean before Partker and Dembélé are back, even though that could be for the Goons game, and BAE may be back for that, too?

Probably Lloris, Walker, Gallas, Caulker, Vertonghen, Lennon, Sandro, Carroll, Bale, Adebayor, Defoe. That is based on how I personally perceive footballing ability and not experience, and with no reference to keeping anyone happy or anything, and with no reference to footballing ability at all, at the front, only to the way Adebayor links things up, I would have him behind Defoe, who is in only for the fact that we know he can score and need a cuttinge edge. All things being equal, I would prefer to have Sigurdsson behind Adebayor. But, again, I donlt have anything on the line in saying this, and don;t have to worry how decisions I make now will rebound in 3 or 6 months

 

[camaj]

I can blame him, the truth is that Huddlestone isnt good enough anymore.

I'm not disputing that, the question you have to answer is who do you play instead. I have to point out there were howls of outrage when it appeared Huddlestone was being flogged. Apparently people believed that would annoy the players who apparently love Huddlestone more than winning. I'd personally play Siggerdson or Livermore but we know how people feel about Siggerdson. Carroll did okay in one game but he wasn't out of this world either. I'd like to see him eased into things, play him against Lazio perhaps.