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New Stadium Details And Discussions

Spur-of-the-moment

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2003
669
276
I think I agree with you on the second part. As we both agree it was an uphill task to win the PR battle and my personal view is that they went the behind-the-scenes lobbying route (I don't know this but surmise it by the number of people we hired with connections to the Olympics and the OPLC) rather than the public lobbying route. But as you say trying to make a complicated argument is not the same as trying to make an impossible one, our bid had many merits over and above the West Ham one and they didn't do as well as they could in getting it across.

On the five OPLC criteria, Wham were better on at least three. In addition the athletics people were publicly in favour of the Wham bid. The uphill struggle was therefore on the criteria as well as public perception.

The only way Spurs could turn this around was, first, to address the criteria, the most important of which was the issue of regeneration. To do that, they had to form alliances with local bodies and promise money. Second, they had to please the athletics lobby with a super-duper Crystal Palace facility, together with a serious investment in local public transport. They might have done better with the former, with some more commitment of funds, perhaps, but Wham and Newham were already involved with the local people and, with this head start, Spurs weren't likely to catch up. On the latter, the spending required for Athletics would have compromised the financial advantages of Stratford for Spurs.

But the most important point to make about both of these major issues is that behind-the-scenes lobbying was not going to work without more investment. This would have had to be associated with a public campaign in order to turn around the public and political attitudes.


Several folks on here have argued that Stratford was going to be significantly better financially for THFC than the NDP, either in terms of stadium costs, or in terms of associated development, or in terms of commercial (corporate and sponsorship) opportunities. Leaving aside the doubts about added commercial revenue, let's say for the moment that it was a better financial deal.

HOWEVER, that was only the case in theory, because Spurs were, effectively, doing local regeneration and providing an athletics legacy on the cheap. But such a cheap bid was never going to be acceptable to anyone. If they had offered to spend more money, they might have stood a better chance, but increasing the spend in this way would have made it financially no better than the NDP.

Wham was always in the driving seat because retaining the running track meant not spending anything on the athletics legacy and because their links with Newham, Westfield, local organisations, together with the business model associated with non-football use of the stadium (by Live Nation and others), also meant they weren't spending so much of their own money on local regeneration. In the end Wham's finances were not so 'stretched' as those of Tottenham.

Spurs tried to do it on the cheap, which was not good enough. This also became the public perception. When, at too a late stage, THFC tried to persuade rebellious fans of the financial advantages, this ony served to reinforce the wider impression of a 'cheap' bid among the general public.


This is the key lesson. Stratford never was the great business opportunity it has been made out to be. This is an illusion. For us Stratford was a seductive but empty mirage. In order to have any chance in the OPLC's, the politicians' and the public's eyes we would have had to spend more money, at which point the 'opportunity' would be no more. Spurs had a punt on the cheap, and, inevitably, failed.

I agree then, that our PR campaign was less than ideal, but I don't think it was as naive as you seem to.


On your hoof-and-hope comment, I don't think it was as blind a shot as that for the following reasons:
  • They had done their own analysis which showed that an 80k stadium without an athletics track was unsustainable for a club of our size.
  • They'd also done research which showed a football stadium with an athletics track was unsustainable for almost any football club and was not something we were prepared to risk.
  • They'd concluded that modern football stadia only add up financially with a large corporate element to them.
For all these reasons they'd concluded that Spurs wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of making an 80k stadium with a running track and without corporate facilities work.

If we couldn't, then how the hell could a club like West Ham with less supporters, at the bottom of the table, with no cash, large debts and historically poor corporate management make it work?

If there proposals were non-sustainable for us how could they be for them?

They must have felt that if presented with the evidence there was a good chance that the OPLC would come to the same conclusions as they had. Of course in the end they didn't, but like I say it wasn't a total punt from the THFC board.

There was a four-fold naivety on the part of Spurs: (1) thinking that the bid was a technical tendering process; (2) imagining that a bid on-the-cheap was going to persuade the OPLC, the politicians or the public; (3) failing to understand the nature of Wham's running-track model and, as a result, concluding that it was unsustainable; (4) hiring the wrong PR people, or instructing them incorrectly, or both.

I agree we couldn't possibly have had a running track. We're a bigger club, with a different financial strategy, and we therefore have greater ambitions for a 55 - 60k stadium.

But Wham's model is different. They will not aim at a substantially bigger turnover through stadium revenue. To fill the stadium and to make up for poorer sightlines, they will offer a significantly cheaper ticket-pricing stucture for a 'family day out' that also provides shopping, and facilities for kids. Instead of raising revenue immediately, having a bigger stadium will strengthen and develop the present and future supporter base, something that Spurs are, in fact, also keenly aware of as a reason for stadium expansion. If sustained greater success comes at some point for Wham, then they can start raising ticket prices to raise revenue.

Spurs' analysis was blinkered and beside the point. When they tried to attack Wham's model their arguments were based on the wrong premises. The model not only works for West Ham, it also works for the local area.

Your point is important. Perhaps Spurs thought that their own narrow vision of how a 60k stadium should work would rule Wham out altogether, rendering their other advantages irrelevant. They were wrong, and badly so.


Sotm
 

Spur-of-the-moment

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2003
669
276
As I've mentioned before, the top-end price for 2- and 3-bedroom flats in Tottenham is currently in the region of £200k. It might be possible to get more for units in a prestige development, but not much more. If the original plan crammed in 400 tiny flats that would have been attractive only to the buy-to-rent market, which was CABE's criticism, it was a bad plan; having the number halved might not lead to a loss in projected income.

If I recall correctly, the exhibitions mentioned 500 flats, the first planning application 400 flats and the second planning application 200 flats. Though CABE's design-based decisions had an influence, the officers' report to the Planning Committee mentioned density maxima in the Haringey plan, in turn influenced by the GLA's London Plan. Those density maxima will take into account the size of the flats, their square footage, etc.

The reduction of the residential density was mentioned by the club as something reducing the contribution of enabling development. My guess is that the net reduction might have cost the NDP something like £15m, which is not insignificant.

The designation of N. Tottenham as a MDC could have significant effects here. With any luck the density maxima might be abandoned and THFC will be able to plan for as much residential development as they need. This, taken together with a reduction in TfL's S.106 demands, might render the NDP viable.


Sotm
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
Seems to me they've got the hump with the fact that West Ham have been given a new stadium AND a further (i.e. on top of what's already been spent constructing the stadium) £75m of public money. Add the fact that Arsenal got fairly substantial public financial assistance for Arseburton Grove and I think the club have every right to make a song and dance when we're being offered absolute minimal support.

This is a complete myth. There was no money from Islington, and their S106 contribution was far higher than Haringey levied from Spurs. Their payments to TfL were higher, too, and would have been much higher still had the installation of escalators at Holloway Road and weekend opening of Drayton Park gone ahead.
 

Achap

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2009
501
810
Which other London clubs? As far as I know no other London clubs have received any public finance for stadium development, West Ham will be the first.

So what the club is saying is that Boris gave them a nod and a wink and now the decision has gone against them they are protesting against the unfairness of the procedure, oh the irony.

I was taking Arsenal into account, as per Daniel Levy's statement on the Official Site on 19.11.2010.

"This is a development with the potential to kickstart regeneration in one of the most deprived boroughs in London, where land values are poor and yet no regeneration monies are available to it.

This is in contrast to the stadia developments of Arsenal and Wembley which were both awarded public sector assistance. These developments required substantial public sector intervention and assistance and would not have progressed without the injection of public sector money."


It is possible that he has since retracted this statement, but I haven't kept in close enough touch with the subject to know. Of course, he could have just been plain lying - do you think this is the case?
 

Spur-of-the-moment

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2003
669
276
Wasn't there some kind of central government subsidy for affordable housing (no longer in existence) that offset some of the S.106 obligation to Islington?
 

arnoldlayne

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2007
1,110
1,176
Get over what?

Yes, I know he made a vague statement about 'spiralling costs'. He wasn't terribly specific about what these were, however (to say the least), and hasn't been since. Are you telling me you weren't just a little surprised when the initial announcement about non-viability was made just after planning permission was granted? I can tell you that Haringey Council were.

And now it's sour grapes and a judicial review. Whoopee!

it's very surprising that it went from "We are proud to announce the confirmation of the NDP following the council review" to "Oh we just can't afford it" in a few weeks.

Maybe Levy et al knows something about the economic disaster the condem's are going to bequeathing us all.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
I was taking Arsenal into account, as per Daniel Levy's statement on the Official Site on 19.11.2010.

"This is a development with the potential to kickstart regeneration in one of the most deprived boroughs in London, where land values are poor and yet no regeneration monies are available to it.

This is in contrast to the stadia developments of Arsenal and Wembley which were both awarded public sector assistance. These developments required substantial public sector intervention and assistance and would not have progressed without the injection of public sector money."


It is possible that he has since retracted this statement, but I haven't kept in close enough touch with the subject to know. Of course, he could have just been plain lying - do you think this is the case?

You'd rather expect the national stadium to receive public sector assistance, and, again, Arsenal received none.
 

Achap

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2009
501
810
You'd rather expect the national stadium to receive public sector assistance, and, again, Arsenal received none.

Correct, I would rather expect the national stadium to receive public sector assistance. But my post - which you quoted - was in answer to bigturnip and concerned Arsenal.

Your statement that there was no injection of public sector money into Arsenal's stadium directly contradicts Daniel Levy's statement of 19 November, 2010, on the Official Site, which I quoted. I am not saying that you are wrong, but do you have a source for your assertion?
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
Correct, I would rather expect the national stadium to receive public sector assistance. But my post - which you quoted - was in answer to bigturnip and concerned Arsenal.

Your statement that there was no injection of public sector money into Arsenal's stadium directly contradicts Daniel Levy's statement of 19 November, 2010, on the Official Site, which I quoted. I am not saying that you are wrong, but do you have a source for your assertion?

Posted earlier in this thread:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2006/may/03/sport.comment1

http://islington.gov.uk/DownloadableDocuments/Environment/Pdf/section106finalterms.pdf

http://www.davidlammy.co.uk/sitedata/PDFS/Corbyn_Letter_REDACTED.pdf
 

Achap

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2009
501
810

Thanks. The first two links didn't seem to prove anything either way, but the third appears conclusive that no public sector monies were advanced by Islington Council.

I really feel that the Club's public pronouncements should be accurate - or corrected if not. I'll check with the Club what the grounds were for DL's statement, and post the reply - if any - here.
 

jimbo

Cabbages
Dec 22, 2003
8,081
7,581
It's like a religious discussion, everybody just believes what they want to anyway because there's no concrete proof either way.

Not that I want to kill the discussion, Carry On Stadium.
 

Hoowl

Dr wHo(owl)
Staff
Aug 18, 2005
6,527
267
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12970332

Interesing comments from Tessa S because it was assumed she was staunchly favouring the West Ham bid. However, this doesn't mean she favours ours. Maybe she thinks none of the options deliver the athletics legacy that was promised and now shes thinking the comprimise of going with West Ham is a compromise too far.
 

brendanb50

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2005
4,488
3,896
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12970332

Interesing comments from Tessa S because it was assumed she was staunchly favouring the West Ham bid. However, this doesn't mean she favours ours. Maybe she thinks none of the options deliver the athletics legacy that was promised and now shes thinking the comprimise of going with West Ham is a compromise too far.

Definitely an interesting read. Given she's probably been privvy to a lot of info.

I think the OPC are now hiding behind the notion that if WH keep the running track then that makes them the right choice in terms of leaving a so called olympic legacy. As if it's as black and white as all that.

Really this should have been givin a huge amount more consideration in the planning stages. Like her and Spurs, i don't think the combination of a track and field arena and a football stadium marry together very well.

All in all with a bit more foresight; a few more well thought out, long term options could have been on the table long before the whole thing became a tabloid bidding war.
 
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