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Play-off for last CL Place.

srups34

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2008
2,595
5,477
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/14/premier-league-play-off-champions-league



The Premier League is considering introducing a play-off system to determine the fourth club to qualify for the following season's European Champions League.

Currently the club which finishes fourth goes through but the new proposal would mean a play-off between the clubs finishing fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. The intention is to inject more competition into a league in which qualification has for years remained in the hands of the same four clubs.

Premier League sources have confirmed that the play-off proposal was presented at the most recent meeting of all clubs, on 4 February, and the league's chief executive, Richard Scudamore, was authorised to return with further details in April.

It is understood that the idea was enthusiastically supported by all clubs – except the so-called big four of Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool. Scudamore, and the league's secretary, Mike Foster, will examine the practicalities of how a play-off system could work: whether it should take the form of a home-and-away knockout system, similar to that in the Football League, or incorporate seeding. They will also look into when matches could be fitted into a crowded fixture calendar before making recommendations.

The idea was presented as part of the Premier League's strategic review of its format and operations and springs from two particular motivations. The first is to crack the problem of England's top league becoming less open and competitive, with the richest clubs, Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool, having strengthened their hold on the top four places over several years. One league source said it was an odd twist that the idea has been raised now, in a season when Liverpool's claim to the fourth place is being seriously challenged.

The response among clubs outside the top four is understood to have been positive, with some believing that a play-off system would create more competitive matches and give more clubs a prize to challenge for. Most clubs now feel they have no chance of attaining fourth place but almost the whole Premier League could be brought into a competition to finish seventh and make it to the play-offs. The medium-sized clubs, which increasingly aspire to break the cartel, are said to have been enthusiastic, seeing play-offs as a great opportunity.

The big four, who have been qualifying on merit at the end of each season and reaping the footballing and financial rewards of Champions League participation are understood to have been less keen. Self-interest is clearly a factor, with those clubs concerned about protecting their own advantages. However, there is also a feeling that the league should be more sophisticated about addressing its major challenges, particularly the financial ones, rather than incorpor-ating an awkward play-off system for a prize as ostensibly moderate as fourth place.

The other motivation for the play-offs is a waning of the proposal for an international round of matches, dubbed "Game 39", which was widely criticised for lacking coherence and being territorially expansionist. The play-offs would mean extra matches, which would be sold to pay-television and so generate more money for all clubs.

The consistent qualification of the same four clubs, widely seen as stifling competition, is not replicated across Europe. The Premier League largely blames the Uefa Champions League money, distributed to participating clubs, for entrenching the big four's financial power. Uefa, however, points out that Champions League income represents a small part, 8–13%, of Manchester United's, Chelsea's, Arsenal's and Liverpool's total turnover. Most of the big clubs' money is made in this country; Premier League television income is relatively evenly distributed but United, Chelsea and Arsenal in particular make much more than their nearest rivals from commercial activities and match-day revenues in the Premier League.

The Dutch league tried a play-off system for the second Champions League qualification place but abandoned it after the 2007-08 season, when FC Twente Enschede beat Ajax 2-1. The issues in Holland were the risk of crowd trouble at such high-stakes matches and a perception that the play-offs were one-sided.

In the Premier League there is some confidence that neither of those would present major problems. As a means of encouraging competition, opportunities and increasing income, the play-off proposal already seems to have enough support to suggest it could gain the necessary 14-6 majority to be implemented.
 

TheChosenOne

A dislike or neg rep = fat fingers
Dec 13, 2005
48,178
50,226
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/14/premier-league-play-off-champions-league



The Premier League is considering introducing a play-off system to determine the fourth club to qualify for the following season's European Champions League.

Currently the club which finishes fourth goes through but the new proposal would mean a play-off between the clubs finishing fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. The intention is to inject more competition into a league in which qualification has for years remained in the hands of the same four clubs.

Premier League sources have confirmed that the play-off proposal was presented at the most recent meeting of all clubs, on 4 February, and the league's chief executive, Richard Scudamore, was authorised to return with further details in April.

It is understood that the idea was enthusiastically supported by all clubs – except the so-called big four of Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool. Scudamore, and the league's secretary, Mike Foster, will examine the practicalities of how a play-off system could work: whether it should take the form of a home-and-away knockout system, similar to that in the Football League, or incorporate seeding. They will also look into when matches could be fitted into a crowded fixture calendar before making recommendations.

The idea was presented as part of the Premier League's strategic review of its format and operations and springs from two particular motivations. The first is to crack the problem of England's top league becoming less open and competitive, with the richest clubs, Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool, having strengthened their hold on the top four places over several years. One league source said it was an odd twist that the idea has been raised now, in a season when Liverpool's claim to the fourth place is being seriously challenged.

The response among clubs outside the top four is understood to have been positive, with some believing that a play-off system would create more competitive matches and give more clubs a prize to challenge for. Most clubs now feel they have no chance of attaining fourth place but almost the whole Premier League could be brought into a competition to finish seventh and make it to the play-offs. The medium-sized clubs, which increasingly aspire to break the cartel, are said to have been enthusiastic, seeing play-offs as a great opportunity.

The big four, who have been qualifying on merit at the end of each season and reaping the footballing and financial rewards of Champions League participation are understood to have been less keen. Self-interest is clearly a factor, with those clubs concerned about protecting their own advantages. However, there is also a feeling that the league should be more sophisticated about addressing its major challenges, particularly the financial ones, rather than incorpor-ating an awkward play-off system for a prize as ostensibly moderate as fourth place.

The other motivation for the play-offs is a waning of the proposal for an international round of matches, dubbed "Game 39", which was widely criticised for lacking coherence and being territorially expansionist. The play-offs would mean extra matches, which would be sold to pay-television and so generate more money for all clubs.

The consistent qualification of the same four clubs, widely seen as stifling competition, is not replicated across Europe. The Premier League largely blames the Uefa Champions League money, distributed to participating clubs, for entrenching the big four's financial power. Uefa, however, points out that Champions League income represents a small part, 8–13%, of Manchester United's, Chelsea's, Arsenal's and Liverpool's total turnover. Most of the big clubs' money is made in this country; Premier League television income is relatively evenly distributed but United, Chelsea and Arsenal in particular make much more than their nearest rivals from commercial activities and match-day revenues in the Premier League.

The Dutch league tried a play-off system for the second Champions League qualification place but abandoned it after the 2007-08 season, when FC Twente Enschede beat Ajax 2-1. The issues in Holland were the risk of crowd trouble at such high-stakes matches and a perception that the play-offs were one-sided.

In the Premier League there is some confidence that neither of those would present major problems. As a means of encouraging competition, opportunities and increasing income, the play-off proposal already seems to have enough support to suggest it could gain the necessary 14-6 majority to be implemented.

That bit says it all - turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Personally I agree. Money not clubs and fans is the motivation behind this as usual.

I wouldn't like to see any club (even us!) going into a CL spot after finishing seventh !
 

JJetset

Lurking in the shadows of threads...
Oct 4, 2004
3,117
30,679
Interesting but i would prefer top 3 and Fa cup winners if i had a choice to spice it up.
 

Marty

Audere est farce
Mar 10, 2005
40,244
64,154
That bit says it all - turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Personally I agree. Money not clubs and fans is the motivation behind this as usual.

I wouldn't like to see any club (even us!) going into a CL spot after finishing seventh !
Ditto. I'd rather just see the same top 4 run away with it every year.

I've also always been against the lower league play-off system for the same reasons.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,327
47,573
Would be a stupid money oriented plan if it went ahead.

And you just know that it would be implemented in the year that we actually come 4th then we'd lose the playoff final to Sunderland or someone equally ridiculous.
 

DEFchenkOE

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2006
10,527
8,052
I think this is a poor idea, as others have mentioned it's just a money spinning event, what would they do? Holds the final at Wembley and present a trophy?? It's a bit pathetic, especially considering that 4th doesn't even guaranty you a spot in the CL proper.
 

kaz Hirai

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2008
17,692
25,340
its a great idea! it breaks up the top 4 monopoly and in the long run it can only make the league more competitive in terms of more than 3 teams capable of winning the title each year, and only the same 4 making the champions league.

infact with man city now matters are worse
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,327
47,573
its a great idea! it breaks up the top 4 monopoly and in the long run it can only make the league more competitive in terms of more than 3 teams capable of winning the title each year, and only the same 4 making the champions league.

infact with man city now matters are worse

It's daft. Theoretically a team could get 10-20 points more than another team in a season then the other team would get in because they win a one-off game (which could be decided by any number of poor decisions).

If they want a one off game for a Champions League place then just give the FA cup winners a place rather than messing about with the entire structure of the league.
 

Bobishism

*****istrator
Aug 23, 2004
15,035
126
It seems unfair. If they do it, the number of points a team racks up should be taken into account. It wouldn't be fair if the 4th ranked team got the same points as the 3rd ranked team, and had double the points of the 7th ranked team yet still lost out.
 

llamafarmer

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2004
10,775
1,055
Typical arse-about-face solution to the problem then? I'd like to see the 4th qualifying spot go to the FA cup winners, but the only way the cartel will be broken is if the whole CL set up is revamped imo.
 

Blockbuster

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2007
2,765
1,568
So you don't want a playoff because some team finishing 7th could get in, so you want the FA Cup winners to be in the CL? ok then a Championship side, league 1 even non league side COULD get into the champ league...

but what if the winner of the FA Cup is already in the CL? what then? the runner's up? or the 4th place side? (effectively no change)

a think a play off is a good idea makes the league more competitive no just battling for 4th but teams will want to finish 1st,2nd,3rd just to avoid 4th. then teams will want to finish 4th,5th,6th and 7th, its a fight all over the table.

and yeah a team from 7th could go into the CL and so what? that team could benefit from it and finish 4th next season and might not get in but they will be stronger for it.

i like the idea.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
34,418
83,949
I'm completely against it, I hate the playoffs and think it allows teams who couldn't compete over 46 games to get into the Premiership. Teams like Fulham, Everton, Blackburn and others already struggle to put out a team to play in the Europa, they'll get hammered if they qualified for the CL they'd get murdered.

The extra money in football since the Prem began has created a monopoly in English football that I don't think has ever exisited before. At first there was one team in the CL so Man Utd dominated, then it was two so Man Utd and Arsenal dominated since it has become four we have seen the "big four" take control. We can either have teams like Man City come into serious money or ourselves and Villa hire experienced managers and have a long and short term plan to break into the top four or we can make up stupid rules that make no sense to break the top four. Neither is perfect but I'd rather teams get into the top four to compete in the CL.
 

kcmei

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2008
7,112
1,330
this is a very good idea. A play-off will definitely favour use because we are such an inconsistent team but always does quite well in cup competitions.
 

jimbo

Cabbages
Dec 22, 2003
8,072
7,551
What we should do instead is this.

Re-structure the league with a dividing line between North and South, we would then call this division a 'conference'. These 'conferences' would then be further split by East and West into what I like to call 'divisions'. Each 'division' would consist of 5 teams or 'franchises'.

Teams or 'franchises' would then play twice against the other 4 teams in their 'division' home and away as well as one off fixtures against the teams or 'franchises' from the other 3 divisions on an alternating home and away basis.

At the end of the season the Divisional Champions would qualify for the Champions League as well as playing-off against each other - Champions East versus Champions West for the right to be Conference Champions and a place in the grand final between North and South which I suggest we call the 'SuperWembleyBowl'.
 

DoublePivot

Relegated to Lurker
Jul 1, 2005
8,987
67
Great, we can miss out on the CL by penalties rather than a dodgy lasagna or our own ineptitude.
 

ikky

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2006
9,019
21,521
A little off topic, but i think the winners of the Europa cup should get a champions league place:shrug:
 

DoublePivot

Relegated to Lurker
Jul 1, 2005
8,987
67
A little off topic, but i think the winners of the Europa cup should get a champions league place:shrug:

Of course they should. But ideas like these....let's call them "rational" or "sane"......are frowned upon at UEFA h.c. :wink:
 

PT

North Stand behind Pat's goal.
Admin
May 21, 2004
25,468
2,409
UEFA were insinuating that England may be deprived of four qualifying positions and instead have to deal with three.

That would be my preferred route. Minimise the qualifying teams and make the UEFA Champions League, a League, rather than eventually a knock out cup competition.

It would ensure firstly, that whichever team won the UEFA Chmapions League, were worthy winners, rather than Cup Kings.

Secondly there would be an inward focus on the domestic set up and as Jimbo has suggested, in this money driven Sky saturated environment, there has to be a more level playing ground.

I would like to see the League Champions only guaranteed a Chamions League entry, with two other teams requiring qualifying either domestically or on next seasons UEFA Champions League pre-league qualification.
 

Shanks

Kinda not anymore....
May 11, 2005
31,230
19,259
If there was a choice, like PT said.

But I like the idea of a play off for that fourth place CL spot.
 
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