POLL : Where should we be finishing in the league under ENIC?

[Led's Zeppelin]

But my point is the stability doesn't have to come from the manager at all.

Swansea hired Martinez then Paulo Sousa then Rodgers then Laudrup. All played high possession, confident football. Despite constant changes they created excellent continuity and have done considerably better than Cardiff who have spent much more.

We have made wholesale changes, constantly. If we'd hired a manager who had similarities to the man he was replacing and therefore could work with the squad we'd have better stability.

I can't imagine our constant changes is very productive with regards to integrating young players into the squad, another hurdle I think we need to get over in order to improve.

Again I don't disagree, in that it would be great to have a consistent style and methodology, but it's very hard to use one club as a model for another, since circumstances are always different. Ramos was sacked because of results, but Harry wasn't. And we don't even know whether AVB was sacked at all. But despite the constant chopping and changing, our results have been remarkably consistent in terms of points totals over the last few years.

I think the problem is the opposite of the lack of ambition that it is commonly conceived to be. If Daniel Levy was content with 5th or 6th, we may well have stuck with a set-up that delivered that, say with Martin Jol for example. But he isn't. He appears to be searching for a man and/or a formula that will enable us to out-perform our economic position in the league whilst at the same time he's trying to deliver a stadium that will improve the financial and thus the league position. All very laudable, actually, but it doesn't satisfy many of us because we feel that whilst 5/6th is not unreasonable in the circumstances, we actually ought to be aiming higher. Which we are. Which leads to constant change because we're not getting there quickly enough.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

The missing word from this entire thread is 'stadium'. Once we have a 56k stadium - and as long as we don't incur unexpectedly unmanageable debt in doing so - the whole relationship with Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool changes, because it will put us, in terms of turnover, roughly on a par with those clubs. Even those who have larger capacities lack the London factor, which enables us to charge higher prices. So the turnover should be broadly similar to everyone's except Man Utd.

We haven't been struggling to sign more than 1 or 2 world-class players - and then levered into selling them a few years later - because we can't afford the transfer fees. We've been losing out on top players because we get blown out of the water on wages and we eventually sell those we do find because we can't retain a staff packed with enough top players to qualify regularly for the Champions League. We can't pay competitive wages because we have to limit our overall salary bill to a maximum of approx. 55% of turnover. Increase the turnover by building a bigger stadium and, in due course, we can compete with those other clubs.

So the answer to the question in the OP is 'it depends how long it takes him to get sacked'. If the new manager is still here when we finally move into the new stadium, then the expectation could be membership of a top 6 or 7 on equal terms, qualifying for the CL every couple of years and perhaps even winning a title.

Somehow I doubt that Levy will be able to restrain himself for that long.

 

[dontcallme]

Again I don't disagree, in that it would be great to have a consistent style and methodology, but it's very hard to use one club as a model for another, since circumstances are always different. Ramos was sacked because of results, but Harry wasn't. And we don't even know whether AVB was sacked at all. But despite the constant chopping and changing, our results have been remarkably consistent in terms of points totals over the last few years.

I think the problem is the opposite of the lack of ambition that it is commonly conceived to be. If Daniel Levy was content with 5th or 6th, we may well have stuck with a set-up that delivered that, say with Martin Jol for example. But he isn't. He appears to be searching for a man and/or a formula that will enable us to out-perform our economic position in the league whilst at the same time he's trying to deliver a stadium that will improve the financial and thus the league position. All very laudable, actually, but it doesn't satisfy many of us because we feel that whilst 5/6th is not unreasonable in the circumstances, we actually ought to be aiming higher. Which we are. Which leads to constant change because we're not getting there quickly enough.

I largely agree.

I think Levy is very successful in his field and expects the manager to excel to a similar level.

I don't mind the sackings per se. There was good reason to sack Jol, Ramos, AVB and Sherwood. Redknapp is more debateable.

I just don't think the successor was well thought-out. Jol wasn't working out so Levy went for a massive change. We didn't need Ramos as his requirements didn't match our squad.

We needed someone similar to Jol to continue his work,

I think our consistency stems largely from the fact that we are financially much better off than the clubs below us. Everton have no money, Villa and Newcastle are run terribly and we overtook Liverpool while they became a mess. Now they're being run better they are back to being above us.

We're better than the rest, not punching above our weight.

 

[sunnydelight786]

With a manager who knows what he's doing, players playing to potential and a support who actually get behind the team as opposed to booing them if they are not winning 20-0 at ht why shouldn't we be aiming for the top?

Plenty of clubs across world football and history have shown leagues can be won with astute management and momentum behind you. Problem is we have too many legends amongst our ranks, average joes like Lennon/Dawson/etc who are lorded because of their loyalty and a support who think finishing 4th is a achievement. With that defeatest attitude that is probably as high as we will ever go.

 

[TheSecretNonFootballer]

With a manager who knows what he's doing, players playing to potential and a support who actually get behind the team as opposed to booing them if they are not winning 20-0 at ht why shouldn't we be aiming for the top?

Plenty of clubs across world football and history have shown leagues can be won with astute management and momentum behind you. Problem is we have too many legends amongst our ranks, average joes like Lennon/Dawson/etc who are lorded because of their loyalty and a support who think finishing 4th is a achievement. With that defeatest attitude that is probably as high as we will ever go.

That's largely down to being English. We want English players to be better than they usually are and that hope masks a lot of the obvious flaws.

 

[dagraham]

As has been said, top six is pretty much par. What's frustrating is that with a little bit more investment at the the right time and some smarter footballing decisions we should have have taken Arsenal's place in the top four.

We may not have stayed their permanently but we would have been in a far better position to make up for our comparitive lack of resources.

Football is cyclical though, so we'll just have to hope we don't fuck it up if and when the opportunity comes round again.

 

[worcestersauce]

8th and if Newcastle ever sort themselves out that's where we would finish, fortunately we have raised ourselves above that level under ENIC.
With the extra revenue from the new stadium we should expect higher.

 

[TheSecretNonFootballer]

As has been said, top six is pretty much par. What's frustrating is that with a little bit more investment at the the right time and some smarter footballing decisions we should have have taken Arsenal's place in the top four.

We may not have stayed their permanently but we would have been in a far better position to make up for our comparitive lack of resources.

Football is cyclical though, so we'll just have to hope we don't fuck it up if and when the opportunity comes round again.

I don't think the door is closed yet but it is closing. As you say though it won't be the last chance, but possibly the last one for a few years.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

The missing word from this entire thread is 'stadium'. ...............................

I agree with the rest of your post, but look at the post immediately before yours!

 

[NEVILLEB]

The missing word from this entire thread is 'stadium'. Once we have a 56k stadium - and as long as we don't incur unexpectedly unmanageable debt in doing so - the whole relationship with Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool changes, because it will put us, in terms of turnover, roughly on a par with those clubs. Even those who have larger capacities lack the London factor, which enables us to charge higher prices. So the turnover should be broadly similar to everyone's except Man Utd.

We haven't been struggling to sign more than 1 or 2 world-class players - and then levered into selling them a few years later - because we can't afford the transfer fees. We've been losing out on top players because we get blown out of the water on wages and we eventually sell those we do find because we can't retain a staff packed with enough top players to qualify regularly for the Champions League. We can't pay competitive wages because we have to limit our overall salary bill to a maximum of approx. 55% of turnover. Increase the turnover by building a bigger stadium and, in due course, we can compete with those other clubs.

So the answer to the question in the OP is 'it depends how long it takes him to get sacked'. If the new manager is still here when we finally move into the new stadium, then the expectation could be membership of a top 6 or 7 on equal terms, qualifying for the CL every couple of years and perhaps even winning a title.

Somehow I doubt that Levy will be able to restrain himself for that long.

It's been shown that the new stadium won't give us equal income. Commercial activities play a big part.

 

[Bobbins]

So in some ways its pointless to ever Hope to See us Win the league or claim the biggest prizes around even with a New stadium because We cant compete so what is there to look forward too.
I guess getting New owners long term would be the only answer to future success.

Unfortunately the financial state of modern football has made it such that winning a league title, whilst not impossible, is extremely unlikely for a club like ours.

Does that make the whole thing pointless? Does that mean we should never cheer another goal, a cup win, or a smashing of a rival?

Of course it doesn't. There's plenty of glory to be had that doesn't require Arab billionaires taking over the club. And with FFP that ship has sailed anyway so there's no point hoping for that.

Would you honestly not be happy with a cup win every few years? Most football fans apart from glory hunters and a lucky few can only dream of being in a position like ours. Are you seriously saying that wouldn't be success?

It's a good job you're not a Preston fan or something, you know lesser clubs view success as getting to playoffs or not going into administration right?

League titles are not the definition of success and its a pretty ridiculous fan who thinks they are. You'll never enjoy football if you think like that. Which probably explains why you're so negative most of the time.

 

[shelfboy68]

Unfortunately the financial state of modern football has made it such that winning a league title, whilst not impossible, is extremely unlikely for a club like ours.

Does that make the whole thing pointless? Does that mean we should never cheer another goal, a cup win, or a smashing of a rival?

Of course it doesn't. There's plenty of glory to be had that doesn't require Arab billionaires taking over the club. And with FFP that ship has sailed anyway so there's no point hoping for that.

Would you honestly not be happy with a cup win every few years? Most football fans apart from glory hunters and a lucky few can only dream of being in a position like ours. Are you seriously saying that wouldn't be success?

It's a good job you're not a Preston fan or something, you know lesser clubs view success as getting to playoffs or not going into administration right?

League titles are not the definition of success and its a pretty ridiculous fan who thinks they are. You'll never enjoy football if you think like that. Which probably explains why you're so negative most of the time.

FFP isnt going to deter arab owners from spending you are deluding yourself if you think uefa are going to throw big Clubs out of the champions League it aint never going to happen too much money involved.
And yes i would like us to Win silverware whats wrong with that you obviously dont have much of an ambition level bobbins but thats for you but I disagree with you about being negative i just speak honestly and dont dress it up plus i get more positive ratings than negative so more Agree than disagree with me oh and sometimes i even Agree with you check it out.

 

[Dinghy]

I've referred to it before in similar threads, there was the post (I think) in the thread What our opponents fans are saying from a Man Utd fan which pretty much nailed this.

It pretty much ran something like this...

DL is trying to maintain the mirage that we are on the brink of breaking into the Sky4. The reason for this is that it increases the income from various sponsorship deals and will increase the new stadium naming rights.

The way the finances work, we are pretty much nailed on to be in (at least) the position we are. This means that he can take risks with management appointments (Jol / Ramos / AVB / TS) and because they are a little more riskier they may just provide that spark and bring forward the ultimate goal of genuinely challenging. When things went awry he brought in Redknapp (a relatively safe and steady (if expensive) appointment) to ensure that the very worst case scenario didn't occur but he didn't really envisage him being around long term...

It's all currently a waiting game to get the new stadium and the added riches that will bring.

 

[parklane1]

The new stadium will be a big boost for us and will bring in the extra income we need, we are losing millions compared to clubs who do already have bigger crowds.

 

[Bobbins]

FFP isnt going to deter arab owners from spending you are deluding yourself if you think uefa are going to throw big Clubs out of the champions League it aint never going to happen too much money involved.
And yes i would like us to Win silverware whats wrong with that you obviously dont have much of an ambition level bobbins but thats for you but I disagree with you about being negative i just speak honestly and dont dress it up plus i get more positive ratings than negative so more Agree than disagree with me oh and sometimes i even Agree with you check it out.

Huh? In both my posts I talk about regularly winning cups and playing in the CL, how is that not ambitious?

I'm also royally fed up of fans using the word 'ambitious' like its something to be proud of, when what they really mean is 'I want to cheat like City and Chelsea did'

 

[shelfboy68]

Huh? In both my posts I talk about regularly winning cups and playing in the CL, how is that not ambitious?

I'm also royally fed up of fans using the word 'ambitious' like its something to be proud of, when what they really mean is 'I want to cheat like City and Chelsea did'

Ive checked the rules and it appears city and chelsea have won their trophies fair and square no fielding fifteen players on the pitch its just that their owners have huge ambition levels nothing wrong with that.
More importantly We are Both spurs fans so why the tension ffs.

 

[Nocando]

All things considered we should be finishing about 6th and that would be par for the course.

If the manager, players and fans can perform above that level then perhaps 5th or 4th...maybe even, dare I say it 3rd, but only if we perform well above those levels and the bigger teams fail dramatically....but that scenario is very unlikely.

 

[Bobbins]

Ive checked the rules and it appears city and chelsea have won their trophies fair and square no fielding fifteen players on the pitch its just that their owners have huge ambition levels nothing wrong with that.
More importantly We are Both spurs fans so why the tension ffs.

They don't have huge ambition, they have huge amounts of money and absolutely no morals. They've not worked hard to raise their clubs up from nothing to be winners - they've just used oil and gas money, that's it.

There's no tension from me - I just obviously disagree that winning the title is the be-all and end-all of being a Spurs fan. I want to win things and be successful but I don't want, and never will want, to get that purely through some random foreign bloke buying the trophies, and if that means only occasional seasons in the CL, and the odd cup win every few years, at least until FFP is properly implemented, then so be it.

It doesn't mean you're more ambitious than me though just because you want someone to come and buy these things for you. It's like saying a WAG is ambitious because she couldn't be arsed to go to uni and get a job but wants to find herself a rich husband to buy her all the things she couldn't be bothered to work for herself.

 

[parklane1]

They don't have huge ambition, they have huge amounts of money and absolutely no morals. They've not worked hard to raise their clubs up from nothing to be winners - they've just used oil and gas money, that's it.

.

Could not agree more.

 

[ultimateloner]

I dont think a manager is all that important.
More there for PR purposes than anything else.