Rate The Ref

[StartingPrice]

My understanding of the rule (at least from endless debates of this kind - Liverpool at Old Trafford a couple of seasons back springs to mind) is that the foul is still a penalty if it goes "into" the penalty area. Which this did. Where the first contact is doesn't matter. In theory you could hoist a player onto your shoulders on the halfway line and running powerbomb him on his arse in the penalty box and it's a spot kick.

I was actualyl very impressed by Webb. He was very consistent in dealing with tackles. The bar was set early on - it was to be a lenient interpretation of what constitutes a tackle. Good news for us as we have tacklers in Sandro, Pienaar, Dawson and Kaboul. The policy suited Liverpool more though and as the game went on they got dirtier and dirtier as they knew they'd, at worst, get bookings if they went in hard. It was possibly dangerous but - because Webb talks to the players and they knew very well what was happening and what the ref was thinking (take note, Clattenburg, you fucking liability), they both understood what was going on and didn't get into huge slanging matches with the ref.

It was a fine example of a tough match to referee (hard tackles, reasonably big stakes, a few difficult decisions at both ends, crowd on your back) being 'managed' effectively by the referee.

I think Webb can be proud of that performance. As Omar said, it was his best in charge of a Tottenham game (although admittedly that isn't saying much).

In which case, and I'm not saying you are wrong, that means virtually no-one involved with football, because game after game, week after week, commentators, pundits, fans and managers constantly appeal to the fact that the challenge happened (or started) outside the area. The refs usually give it that way, too.
So, fair play to Webb if that if indeed the rule.
Funny how you don't make any mention of the Suarez kick on Dawson, or the constant diving my him and the later blatant one by Maxi, or the push by Sheveley on Sandro when they were off the pitch and the ball was long gone (that sent him,very dangerously for him and the Scousers, into the crowd).

 

[Bill_Oddie]

In which case, and I'm not saying you are wrong, that means virtually no-one involved with football, because game after game, week after week, commentators, pundits, fans and managers constantly appeal to the fact that the challenge happened (or started) outside the area. The refs usually give it that way, too.
So, fair play to Webb if that if indeed the rule.
Funny how you don't make any mention of the Suarez kick on Dawson, or the constant diving my him and the later blatant one by Maxi, or the push by Sheveley on Sandro when they were off the pitch and the ball was long gone (that sent him,very dangerously for him and the Scousers, into the crowd).

If you Google the United-Liverpool match where the foul was clearly outside the box but Mascherano's tackle on Tevez propelled the United man into the box there was a huge debate then. Otherwise, yes, most pundits and the (to quote Harry) idiots that watch the game have little understanding of the finer points of the rules.

I didn't mention any specific incidents apart from the penalty. If you like:

Suarez' was a flick of the boot. Naughty but Webb had already showed he didn't want to send anyone off. It caused zero injury and was never likely to. If Dawson had done it to Suarez at White Hart Lane I am sure Webb would not have sent him off either. It was dealt with.

"Constant diving" - he won a few free kicks, didn't get many though. Most went unpunished. Again, Webb set the tone. Diving wasn't worthy of a booking unless it was ridiculous. In Webb's eye Suarez didn't ever get to "ridiculous".

Later blatant one by Maxi - possibly I missed this. Did he get booked? I missed a minute or two when I needed a wee. Apologies.

The crowd is right next to pitch and Sandro was running at a hundred miles an hour. Shelvey conceded a free kick. It was punished. Thankfully no one was hurt. Including and especially the small child who nearly lost his teeth. I dispute that the ball was "long gone". It was "gone" because Sandro is that damn good. And it was dirty and dangerous. I'd have booked Shelvey but Webb surely has to be commended for trying to keep players on the pitch.


I appreciate that everything Webb does is shit to most football fans. But he's actually a damn good ref (albeit one who's generally rubbish in Tottenham games). And he allows a 'proper game' to take place. He's also excellent at 'managing' the game.

Watch again and note how he communicates compared to Clattenburg. If Clusterfuck were in charge yesterday he'd have had 22 players following him around the pitch screaming "You what!" and have sent four off. If that's how you want your football matches, fair enough. I prefer a fair, strong ref.

 

[Viva la Tottenham]

1/10 as usual Webb was unpredictable with his calls and largely shit

 

[3Dnata]

I thought the pen was a foul but probably outside the box.
I can't help but feel because he got such criticism from Pool over their Manu match he's given us the rub of the green on some decisions. That's how lowly I view the man.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

If you Google the United-Liverpool match where the foul was clearly outside the box but Mascherano's tackle on Tevez propelled the United man into the box there was a huge debate then. Otherwise, yes, most pundits and the (to quote Harry) idiots that watch the game have little understanding of the finer points of the rules.

I didn't mention any specific incidents apart from the penalty. If you like:

Suarez' was a flick of the boot. Naughty but Webb had already showed he didn't want to send anyone off. It caused zero injury and was never likely to. If Dawson had done it to Suarez at White Hart Lane I am sure Webb would not have sent him off either. It was dealt with.

"Constant diving" - he won a few free kicks, didn't get many though. Most went unpunished. Again, Webb set the tone. Diving wasn't worthy of a booking unless it was ridiculous. In Webb's eye Suarez didn't ever get to "ridiculous".

Later blatant one by Maxi - possibly I missed this. Did he get booked? I missed a minute or two when I needed a wee. Apologies.

The crowd is right next to pitch and Sandro was running at a hundred miles an hour. Shelvey conceded a free kick. It was punished. Thankfully no one was hurt. Including and especially the small child who nearly lost his teeth. I dispute that the ball was "long gone". It was "gone" because Sandro is that damn good. And it was dirty and dangerous. I'd have booked Shelvey but Webb surely has to be commended for trying to keep players on the pitch.


I appreciate that everything Webb does is shit to most football fans. But he's actually a damn good ref (albeit one who's generally rubbish in Tottenham games). And he allows a 'proper game' to take place. He's also excellent at 'managing' the game.

Watch again and note how he communicates compared to Clattenburg. If Clusterfuck were in charge yesterday he'd have had 22 players following him around the pitch screaming "You what!" and have sent four off. If that's how you want your football matches, fair enough. I prefer a fair, strong ref.

I don't agree completely with your assessment that Webb is generally a damn good ref, I think I have personally seen him have too many poor games, not just spurs games either, to say that.

But I don't mind referees applying some common sense, like he did with some things saturday, the problem is - as everyone will say - consistency.

I wholeheartedly agree that the type of thing Suarez did should never be more than a ticking off or at worst a yellow. It's fucking handbags that should be forgotten with a hand shake and apology etc. It's not going to threaten anyone's career, or put them out for a few games. And if there was a general consensus and unilateral application of this policy it would be fine. But there is isn't, and even in the same game you'll got an uneven application.

I have a much bigger problem with tackles like the one Flanagan made on Rose, or Adam made on Bale. This shit really needs dealing with in the harshest possible terms, and FIFA should stop pissing themselves about the odd dive or bit of un-gentlemanly conduct and start prioritising reckless and malicious tackles and deliberate and persistent fouls.

 

[StockSpur]

he's a terrbile referee to be blunt, when the pressure's on he crumbles.

 

[guate]

Webb was, well.......Webb, hugely inconsistent throughout and and as always making a cock up of the obvious fouls like giving us a non existent penalty while doing nothing regarding the vicious, dark arts tactics of the bin dippers a la Flanagan on Rose or Shelvey on Sandro or the cheap diving tactics of Maxi and Suarez.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

for the record, I think it was a penalty, I'm just amazed Webb gave it.

 

[StartingPrice]

If you Google the United-Liverpool match where the foul was clearly outside the box but Mascherano's tackle on Tevez propelled the United man into the box there was a huge debate then. Otherwise, yes, most pundits and the (to quote Harry) idiots that watch the game have little understanding of the finer points of the rules.

I didn't mention any specific incidents apart from the penalty. If you like:

Suarez' was a flick of the boot. Naughty but Webb had already showed he didn't want to send anyone off. It caused zero injury and was never likely to. If Dawson had done it to Suarez at White Hart Lane I am sure Webb would not have sent him off either. It was dealt with.

"Constant diving" - he won a few free kicks, didn't get many though. Most went unpunished. Again, Webb set the tone. Diving wasn't worthy of a booking unless it was ridiculous. In Webb's eye Suarez didn't ever get to "ridiculous".

Later blatant one by Maxi - possibly I missed this. Did he get booked? I missed a minute or two when I needed a wee. Apologies.

The crowd is right next to pitch and Sandro was running at a hundred miles an hour. Shelvey conceded a free kick. It was punished. Thankfully no one was hurt. Including and especially the small child who nearly lost his teeth. I dispute that the ball was "long gone". It was "gone" because Sandro is that damn good. And it was dirty and dangerous. I'd have booked Shelvey but Webb surely has to be commended for trying to keep players on the pitch.


I appreciate that everything Webb does is shit to most football fans. But he's actually a damn good ref (albeit one who's generally rubbish in Tottenham games). And he allows a 'proper game' to take place. He's also excellent at 'managing' the game.

Watch again and note how he communicates compared to Clattenburg. If Clusterfuck were in charge yesterday he'd have had 22 players following him around the pitch screaming "You what!" and have sent four off. If that's how you want your football matches, fair enough. I prefer a fair, strong ref.

BC has said most of what I was going to say, so, please see below.

I don't agree completely with your assessment that Webb is generally a damn good ref, I think I have personally seen him have too many poor games, not just spurs games either, to say that.

But I don't mind referees applying some common sense, like he did with some things saturday, the problem is - as everyone will say - consistency.

I wholeheartedly agree that the type of thing Suarez did should never be more than a ticking off or at worst a yellow. It's fucking handbags that should be forgotten with a hand shake and apology etc. It's not going to threaten anyone's career, or put them out for a few games. And if there was a general consensus and unilateral application of this policy it would be fine. But there is isn't, and even in the same game you'll got an uneven application.

I have a much bigger problem with tackles like the one Flanagan made on Rose, or Adam made on Bale. This shit really needs dealing with in the harshest possible terms, and FIFA should stop pissing themselves about the odd dive or bit of un-gentlemanly conduct and start prioritising reckless and malicious tackles and deliberate and persistent fouls.

See, Bill, maybe I am overreacting, but I see too many games where the oppos get away with too much (sometimes nothing much, in real terms, sometimes bad shit), and we get punished for virtually nothing. And that makes me want to see the very strictest letter of the law applied in every case, I'm afraid.

In regard to the Shelvey push, the ball must have been long goneas they were off the pitch, and it looked very petulant (there was no need for him to do it).

In regard to the constant diving, isn't it a bookable offence:shrug: If it is, then Suarez should have been booked. When he kicked Daws, technically it is a red card offence, isn't it? - Crouch technically committed two yellow card offences very early on against Real, and no-one had a word with him we were just reduced to 10 men for one of the biggest games in decades. You know as well as I do, we could go on and on at this. Webb shouldn't be setting the tone - if UEFA say they want to abolish diving from the game and make it a punishable offence on that account, then it is a punishable offence.

Yes, Maxi dived in the box - yes it was blatant.

In regard to the penalty, I've already answered you. I remember the United/Liverpool game. I remember the furore surrounding the penalty. I can only repeat, no-one, including refs and managers seems to know that rule, because refs almost always give free-kicks outside the area if contact was initiated there, even if the aggrieved party fell into the area.

There seems to be something wrong when refs (like Mr Webb) can decide to not apply the full-letter of the law, to be lenient, and not wanting to send anyone off. See, I disagree, I do think Daws would have been more severely punished (whether at WHL or not), I am pretty certain that Modric was booked for diving, when it wasn't even a dive, and am certain Defoe was sent off for jumping for the ball when his arm made minimal contact and he was clearly following the flight of the ball, I am pretty certain that Daws had a penalty awaarded against him and was sent off for the type of minimal pull-back that happens dozens of times per game. I'm not saying Webb was officiating for everyone of those games - I am saying the laws are not applied consistently, and, until they are consistently applied leniently, I would rather see them consistently applied strictly.

By the strict letter of the law, Webb specifically let Liverpool away with a hell of a lot yesterday. I cannot think of any reason we could have been reduced to 10 men or less, if that had been the case, but I certainly can for Liverpool.

 

[millsie]

I gave him 1/10 cos hes a useless MU supporting ***, in saying that i think the pen. yesterday was not that bad a decision I've seen them given for a lot less

 

[Bill_Oddie]

BC has said most of what I was going to say, so, please see below.



See, Bill, maybe I am overreacting, but I see too many games where the oppos get away with too much (sometimes nothing much, in real terms, sometimes bad shit), and we get punished for virtually nothing. And that makes me want to see the very strictest letter of the law applied in every case, I'm afraid.

In regard to the Shelvey push, the ball must have been long goneas they were off the pitch, and it looked very petulant (there was no need for him to do it).

In regard to the constant diving, isn't it a bookable offence:shrug: If it is, then Suarez should have been booked. When he kicked Daws, technically it is a red card offence, isn't it? - Crouch technically committed two yellow card offences very early on against Real, and no-one had a word with him we were just reduced to 10 men for one of the biggest games in decades. You know as well as I do, we could go on and on at this. Webb shouldn't be setting the tone - if UEFA say they want to abolish diving from the game and make it a punishable offence on that account, then it is a punishable offence.

Yes, Maxi dived in the box - yes it was blatant.

In regard to the penalty, I've already answered you. I remember the United/Liverpool game. I remember the furore surrounding the penalty. I can only repeat, no-one, including refs and managers seems to know that rule, because refs almost always give free-kicks outside the area if contact was initiated there, even if the aggrieved party fell into the area.

There seems to be something wrong when refs (like Mr Webb) can decide to not apply the full-letter of the law, to be lenient, and not wanting to send anyone off. See, I disagree, I do think Daws would have been more severely punished (whether at WHL or not), I am pretty certain that Modric was booked for diving, when it wasn't even a dive, and am certain Defoe was sent off for jumping for the ball when his arm made minimal contact and he was clearly following the flight of the ball, I am pretty certain that Daws had a penalty awaarded against him and was sent off for the type of minimal pull-back that happens dozens of times per game. I'm not saying Webb was officiating for everyone of those games - I am saying the laws are not applied consistently, and, until they are consistently applied leniently, I would rather see them consistently applied strictly.

By the strict letter of the law, Webb specifically let Liverpool away with a hell of a lot yesterday. I cannot think of any reason we could have been reduced to 10 men or less, if that had been the case, but I certainly can for Liverpool.

Fair enough. I admire your passion, albeit that you seem unwilling to get as aggrieved about decisions that go in Spurs' favour. If you can search out a Liverpool fan do ask him how he felt Webb reffed. i promise you he'll say almost exactly what you did about other incidents that didn't catch your attention. Why, do you think, was the whole of Anfield ironically cheering when Liverpool got a free kick after four of five challenges from our midfield that would have earned punishment on another occasion?

Seriously, Webb is a good ref. He 'manages' games. This banal debate we and every football pundit and fan have every single week about decision making for refs is bullshit. It's almost irrelevant. It's bloody hard to make decisions, communicate them effectively, run a match and allow both teams the best chance to compete on a level playing field. Webb does this better than anyone else in England.

Hence, obviously, why he was given the honour of refereeing the World Cup Final.

Mark Clattenburg is the opposite of these things, although a lot of his decision-making is actually quite good.

Hence why he is often relegated to the Championship to ref.

I think regardless of whether you can be bothered to learn the rules of Association Football regarding fouls that go into the box or anything else, you surely have to believe that the refs know them. And that the people who monitor and assess the referees (players don't have individual reports for every single match and get relegated for potentially one bad incident) know what they're doing.

 

[spurious1]

Usual rubbish performance from Webb. Of course it's more bearable this time, as some of his bad calls benefited us. I attribute the fact he gave us a penalty of a rather dubious nature to his overpowering love of MU causing him to wish ill on their bitter rivals Liverpool.

 

[StartingPrice]

Fair enough. I admire your passion, albeit that you seem unwilling to get as aggrieved about decisions that go in Spurs' favour. If you can search out a Liverpool fan do ask him how he felt Webb reffed. i promise you he'll say almost exactly what you did about other incidents that didn't catch your attention. Why, do you think, was the whole of Anfield ironically cheering when Liverpool got a free kick after four of five challenges from our midfield that would have earned punishment on another occasion?

Seriously, Webb is a good ref. He 'manages' games. This banal debate we and every football pundit and fan have every single week about decision making for refs is bullshit. It's almost irrelevant. It's bloody hard to make decisions, communicate them effectively, run a match and allow both teams the best chance to compete on a level playing field. Webb does this better than anyone else in England.

Hence, obviously, why he was given the honour of refereeing the World Cup Final.

Mark Clattenburg is the opposite of these things, although a lot of his decision-making is actually quite good.

Hence why he is often relegated to the Championship to ref.

I think regardless of whether you can be bothered to learn the rules of Association Football regarding fouls that go into the box or anything else, you surely have to believe that the refs know them. And that the people who monitor and assess the referees (players don't have individual reports for every single match and get relegated for potentially one bad incident) know what they're doing.

I understand all of this.
Like I said, with my best objective head on(I am very capable of doing that), I cannot for the life of me imagine anything that would have earned any of our players a dismissal, whereas I can for Liverpool.

Ironically, I said I didn't think it was a penalty, giving credence to Liverpool's sense of geievance, and you have done everything in your power to convince me that it was.

Are the Liverpool fans 'perhaps' partisan:shrug: I would suggest they were ironically cheering Webb because they harbour memories from previous games, because the idea that they were right everytime they thought they should have had a decision (which, if correct, might give them leave to do this), is, quite frankly, bizarre. They demanded penalties on, was it, three occasions for hand-balls, when there clearly weren't any (for one of them Kaboul specifically put his hands behind his back), and yet they still felt aggrieved. I honestly saw a few tasty challenges from our lot, but nothing that was bookable, and most were fair challenges. When Sandro was booked I did my cringe face, the one I pull when I know a decision is bang-to-rights, and there will be a card to follow.

Your defence of him seems to rest upon the following:
It was a penalty - okay, you've convinced me (so why keep returning to it, other than it is the only valid point you seem to have in your robust defence of him):shrug:
He was extremely lenient with Liverpool, ignoring the letter or purport of the law, but, hey, that's okay, he might have been with us to.
Everytime the Liverpool fans felt like they should have had a decision they were correct, and therefore there sense of grievance if as valid as our own (even though our penalty was spot on, IYHO).

As I have stated explicitly, my sense of grievance comes form seeing years of inconsistent refereeing that seems, on second (3rd, 4th, 5th - with modern replays) viewing, and with calm after-the-moment objectivity restored, to be far more against us than for. In this instance, I didn't see any blatant diving by our lot, though I have seen Bale do it a few times this season and been annoyed by it. I have, however, seen Modders booked for diving when it could be clearly seen that he did no such thing. I also recall a whole farcical incident, involving your friend Mr Clatty, which was precipitated by a blatant dive by Nani that wasn't booked (and, thereby, maybe the incident averted). The rule to book diving was introduced for a reason - to cut out diving from the game. The fact that Mr Webb feels lenient is hardly, to me, justification for undermining that - especially when that leniency seems to be applied with some discretion (to say the least).

I have seen Christaino Ronaldo kick-out at Ledley King not once but twice (for having the temerity to win the ball fairly), and yet remain on the pitch (and go on to score/assist). And yet even when our players make legitimate challenges or don't even touch the oppos they get sent-off, and the FA refuse to rescind the cards (I'm thinking Robbie keane, here). Either this is a red-card offence, a yellow card offence, or no offence. I see little difference between raising your feet, or raising your hands to an opponent, whether the contact is minimal or not. And yet time after time, with the hands, we here the same things "contact was minimal", "he made the most of it", "but you can't do that, you can't raise your hands to an opponent". I have seen this kicking out red-carded - reflecting upon these considerations leads me to the conclusion that this is a ruling that should be clarified and applied consistently. Mr Webb's actions muddy the waters and raise the spectre that his leniency may be applied differently on a subsequent occasion - and is therefore inconsistently applied.

And again, with the Shevely incident - as I stated the ball had gone and they were off the pitch, and he did something that was clearly nasty in intent and could have resulted in injury to Sandro and members of the paying public (probably out of anger that Sandro had bossed the midfield - players do this and should be punished for it). Why do you think a ticking off was okay for this incident?

As for your final paragraph - again returning to the penalty: well, as I have said twice now, I have accepted you explanation as viable. This is ironic as it underlines how false the Liverpool manager, players and fans sense of grievance actually was. What it doesn't do is expunge the above, and therefore my assertion that he had a poor match, from the record. I actually find it quite insulting that you bat on about 'not bothering learning the regulations' when, as I said, almost everyone employed in football, including referees, seem to live under the same misapprehension that I was under. You ignore this, and the fact that I have accepted that if the rules state as you say then I was wrong on that - and rather ignore the fact that the refs clearly 'don't know them' as they almost always give free-kaicks for contact initiated outside the area that continues inside, rather than penalties - otherwise why would Mr Webb's actions cause so much confusion that almost everyone who has commented on it was under tha same opinion as myself (and by everyone I do mean people who are profesionally employed within the game).

So, I repeat, you thinking he was lenient and that was good is not sufficient for me to overturn my conclusion that he reffed the game poorly, as this leniency (as with a whole host of dodgy decisions) seem to barely be applied consistently. And, as stated above, if that leniency is applied against the grain of a campaign to eradicate certain things from the game, it seems barely defensible, in my book.