Ratings vs FC Basel

[Francis Gibbs]

I have to admit i laugh when I see 'worked hard' used to justify a 'good' performance ...... must just be getting old but I think working hard is and always should be an absolute given

 

[Nocando]

I don't have a problem with him not acknowledging his contribution as such, we all have players we are never going to rate and at the end of the day he is always going to mark Walker down for bits that the rest of us wont.

Where I have a problem, is when he compares him to Naughton as if they are both of a similar level and it's just a throwaway comment. Naughton is, as a package, one of the worst players I think I have ever seen. Fuck technical ability, or if he can pass more than 3 yards, he is shocking at everything that makes a professional footballer and he is completely stealing a living.

I agree to an extent; obviously at the end of the day its just a ratings thread on a website so I'm not going be that bothered if someone else rates them differently as that's what opnions are about. I just felt it was worth highlighting because the (almost) absolute majority have said he had a good game and marked him accordingly. However BC gave a backhanded compliment to maintain or somehow justify his wider opinion of him as a player (he will of course deny this, naturally but it does, as you say, play a a part). It's as almost as if he couldn't bring himself to accept he does have the occasional good game*.

To me it hasn't got anything to do with Naughton but I can understand that it may be a case that some have a preference and therefore base opinions and scores on that. I think KN isn't as bad as you make out but I think Walker's the better player and has demonstrated this consistantly. In fact he has probably been our best player over the last four games. It certainly flies in the face of those that wan't him hung after he hit a bad bit of form earlier int he season.

*I loved the bit where the bigger opposition player tried to outmuscle Walker but hitting him off balance and Walker just shrugged it off and didn't even waiver.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agree to an extent; obviously at the end of the day its just a ratings thread on a website so I'm not going be that bothered if someone else rates them differently as that's what opnions are about. I just felt it was worth highlighting because the (almost) absolute majority have said he had a good game and marked him accordingly. However BC gave a backhanded compliment to maintain or somehow justify his wider opinion of him as a player (he will of course deny this, naturally but it does, as you say, play a a part). It's as almost as if he couldn't bring himself to accept he does have the occasional good game*.

To me it hasn't got anything to do with Naughton but I can understand that it may be a case that some have a preference and therefore base opinions and scores on that. I think KN isn't as bad as you make out but I think Walker's the better player and has demonstrated this consistantly. In fact he has probably been our best player over the last four games. It certainly flies in the face of those that wan't him hung after he hit a bad bit of form earlier int he season.

*I loved the bit where the bigger opposition player tried to outmuscle Walker but hitting him off balance and Walker just shrugged it off and didn't even waiver.

I can see where me pointing out his failings (and for the record even the people that praise him in this thread have invariably qualified it with "but" this or "but" that) doesn't quite fit with your agenda. Must rankle.

We have people claiming Parker is the worst passer in our team, Dawson is magnificent, Gallas is a disgrace, Adebayor did nothing, Dempsey was man of the match and Walker has been our best player for the last four games and you're singling my agenda out.

Know yourself innit.

I've asked this a lot. I think I may have even asked you before. Why don't you actually tell me what you think Walker's strengths are. Apart from straight line pace that is. I'm not being facetious here, just that I know that already. Explain to me what he contributed that would make him our best player last four games.

 

[double0]

Walker has great pace...people brush it off like its worth shit but it's a fantastic asset not to be belittled. Walker is very tenacious in the tackle. Walker is aeirally good for a full back. Walker can occationally strike a ball superbly case his goal against Arsenal, I'd say his positonally good baring in mind he knows his pace and generally makes a tackle. Walker has a good attitude, Walker is Enland quality potentially first choice.

Walker has failings to iron out: Concentration the main. Walker during games will make a wrong decision with his distribution. Walker concedes unneccessary free kick when caught out of position or when his passing had gone astray. Walkers delievery is very questionable when in good attacking position which is odd because he can strike the ball well. Walker is still learing the overall package of defence and attack and I still believe his goods out weigh his bad the bads need addressing and more coaching prime example of a similiar player with said abilites needed adjusting was Kaboul when he first came to Spurs.

 

[sloth]

I gave MotM to Walker. I thought everyone except Dempsey worked hard though, and everyone lacked quality at times and made silly mistakes (except Carroll, I don't remember a mistake or deficiency from him).

On Ade, I think his form can be interpreted in two ways, on the one hand some claim he can't be arsed, he's a mercenary and his poor performances are down to attitude - personally I don't think this is the case. On the other hand - and this is what I think - it could be said that he's a confidence player, and that when he smiles having fucked up this is from nervousness and embarrassment, rather than because he doesn't give a shit. I'd also like to say that he's probably not as good as his transfer fee to City would have suggested he was. On the plus point we got him for under £10m and his wages are about £75k a week; we can sell him and get our money back, or we can keep him and he can do a decent job for us over the length of his contract. This also highlights the wisdom of Levy's determination to hold out over the summer, when many at the time and through August and September claimed it could have cost us the CL and Levy should have just paid what it cost, many now don't feel he's worth a space in the team. This illustrates, imo, that when Levy's negotiating he's considering not only the positive impact an in form Ade has on our prospects, but also the negative impact an over-priced, over-waged Adebayor has on our prospects when he's out of form.

On Dempsey, I find him very similar to Defoe, when he scores everyone seems to forgive him, but what he does the rest of the time is basically shit. Especially the sort of effort he puts in, which imo is scandalous for a player of his limited talent. He should always be putting in a shift because at least then people would forgive him his shitness.

I like the look of Gylfi, he reminds me of Kranjcar, but I think he works a bit harder, is slightly quicker and has more room to improve, we keep seeing glimpses and flashes and there's enough there to make he think he'll develop into something half-decent. Same goes for Holtby.

Friedel and AVB. At times it's seemed baffling how AVB's stuck with him, especially when you consider it's AVB who's persuaded me and others to rate, and take seriously the EL; how can he on the one hand play all his strongest players, all the way through and berate others for under-rating it, and yet on the other hand deliberately chose to play the inferior player come what may? But then it got me thinking, given it's odd, what is his reason for it? And the only thing I could come up with is that it's part of a longer-term plan, that in his use of squad, in his philosophy, from picking Friedel, to not picking BAE he's telling everyone what his values are. I feel very positive about the future, and weirdly I'm not even that bothered whether we qualify for CL; I think our future hinges on decent coaching, spotting young talent, and bringing it through, rather than on paying top wages to established stars. Plus I think we can win the EL.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I gave MotM to Walker. I thought everyone except Dempsey worked hard though, and everyone lacked quality at times and made silly mistakes (except Carroll, I don't remember a mistake or deficiency from him).

On Ade, I think he's form can be interpreted in two ways, on the one hand some claim he can't be arsed, he's a mercenary and his poor performances are down to attitude - personally I don't think this is the case. On the other hand - and this is what I think - it could be said that he's a confidence player, and that when he smiles having fucked up this is from nervousness and embarrassment, rather than because he doesn't give a shit. I'd also like to say that he's probably not as good as his transfer fee to City would have suggested he was. On the plus point we got him for under £10m and his wages are about £75k a week; we can sell him and get our money back, or we can keep him and he can do a decent job for us over the length of his contract. This also highlights the wisdom of Levy's determination to hold out over the summer, when many at the time and through August and September claimed it could have cost us the CL and Levy should have just paid what it cost, many now don't feel he's worth a space in the team. This illustrates, imo, that when Levy's negotiating he's considering not only the positive impact an in form Ade has on our prospects, but also the negative impact an over-priced, over-waged Adebayor has on our prospects when he's out of form.

On Dempsey, I find him very similar to Defoe, when he scores everyone seems to forgive him, but what he does the rest of the time is basically shit. Especially the sort of effort he puts in, which imo is scandalous for a player of his limited talent. He should always be putting in a shift because at least then people would forgive him his shitness.

I like the look of Gylfi, he reminds me of Kranjcar, but I think he works a bit harder, is slightly quicker and has more room to improve, we keep seeing glimpses and flashes and there's enough there to make he think he'll develop into something half-decent. Same goes for Holtby.

Friedel and AVB. At times it's seemed baffling how AVB's stuck with him, especially when you consider it's AVB who's persuaded me and others to rate, and take seriously the EL; how can he on the one hand play all his strongest players, all the way through and berate others for under-rating it, and yet on the other hand deliberately chose to play the inferior player come what may? But then it got me thinking, given it's odd, what is his reason for it? And the only thing I could come up with is that it's part of a longer-term plan, that in his use of squad, in his philosophy, from picking Friedel, to not picking BAE he's telling everyone what his values are. I feel very positive about the future, and weirdly I'm not even that bothered whether we qualify for CL; I think our future hinges on decent coaching, spotting young talent, and bringing it through, rather than on paying top wages to established stars. Plus I think we can win the EL.

Good post Sloth, although I thought that Dempsey put in a reasonable shift yesterday from what I saw.

I think the thinking behind Friedel is that he doesn't want to ostracise our second choice keeper from the squad. He knows that, should the worst happen and Lloris gets injured we have a reasonably match ready GK to step in not some guy getting steadily disillusioned on the bench never playing. It keeps both 1st and 2nd choice on their toes and with a stake in the first team.

Another issue here is that when we look at signing an understudy for Hugo, AVB can say to the guy, 'look, you're going to get games, you can prove yourself in competitive football' etc. This may seem a little paradoxical that playing a 40 year old in goal is part of AVBs long term philosophy, but I think if you look past the immediate disadvantage that we are playing games with 2 very, very stylistically different keepers, it is the kind of long term thinking that will serve us well in the future.

 

[only1waddle]

Good post Sloth, although I thought that Dempsey put in a reasonable shift yesterday from what I saw.

I think the thinking behind Friedel is that he doesn't want to ostracise our second choice keeper from the squad. He knows that, should the worst happen and Lloris gets injured we have a reasonably match ready GK to step in not some guy getting steadily disillusioned on the bench never playing. It keeps both 1st and 2nd choice on their toes and with a stake in the first team.

Another issue here is that when we look at signing an understudy for Hugo, AVB can say to the guy, 'look, you're going to get games, you can prove yourself in competitive football' etc. This may seem a little paradoxical that playing a 40 year old in goal is part of AVBs long term philosophy, but I think if you look past the immediate disadvantage that we are playing games with 2 very, very stylistically different keepers, it is the kind of long term thinking that will serve us well in the future.

Good post, i would also point out that in pre season Brad was quite chatty on the bench with AVB and there seems to be a good understanding between them, there was a footy show Brad was on and he was talking up AVB and his philosophy and stating he was a believer in it, always seems like a genuine guy and i would put it down to a smart move keeping Brad onside as it were, tough going out on pens but like sloth i see a long term plan throughout the club and strides to move forward, big summer for us, while i think the first 11 just needs a tweak i think it should be the summer we shake the squad up and try to get rid of the chaff once and for all..

 

[ShelfSide18]

and try to get rid of the chaff once and for all..

Tough ask getting rid of all our shit abusive fans, but it's a nice thought.

 

[Mr Pink]

I thought Walker was excellent personally.

 

[Mr Pink]

I gave MotM to Walker. I thought everyone except Dempsey worked hard though, and everyone lacked quality at times and made silly mistakes (except Carroll, I don't remember a mistake or deficiency from him).

On Ade, I think he's form can be interpreted in two ways, on the one hand some claim he can't be arsed, he's a mercenary and his poor performances are down to attitude - personally I don't think this is the case. On the other hand - and this is what I think - it could be said that he's a confidence player, and that when he smiles having fucked up this is from nervousness and embarrassment, rather than because he doesn't give a shit. I'd also like to say that he's probably not as good as his transfer fee to City would have suggested he was. On the plus point we got him for under £10m and his wages are about £75k a week; we can sell him and get our money back, or we can keep him and he can do a decent job for us over the length of his contract. This also highlights the wisdom of Levy's determination to hold out over the summer, when many at the time and through August and September claimed it could have cost us the CL and Levy should have just paid what it cost, many now don't feel he's worth a space in the team. This illustrates, imo, that when Levy's negotiating he's considering not only the positive impact an in form Ade has on our prospects, but also the negative impact an over-priced, over-waged Adebayor has on our prospects when he's out of form.

On Dempsey, I find him very similar to Defoe, when he scores everyone seems to forgive him, but what he does the rest of the time is basically shit. Especially the sort of effort he puts in, which imo is scandalous for a player of his limited talent. He should always be putting in a shift because at least then people would forgive him his shitness.

I like the look of Gylfi, he reminds me of Kranjcar, but I think he works a bit harder, is slightly quicker and has more room to improve, we keep seeing glimpses and flashes and there's enough there to make he think he'll develop into something half-decent. Same goes for Holtby.

Friedel and AVB. At times it's seemed baffling how AVB's stuck with him, especially when you consider it's AVB who's persuaded me and others to rate, and take seriously the EL; how can he on the one hand play all his strongest players, all the way through and berate others for under-rating it, and yet on the other hand deliberately chose to play the inferior player come what may? But then it got me thinking, given it's odd, what is his reason for it? And the only thing I could come up with is that it's part of a longer-term plan, that in his use of squad, in his philosophy, from picking Friedel, to not picking BAE he's telling everyone what his values are. I feel very positive about the future, and weirdly I'm not even that bothered whether we qualify for CL; I think our future hinges on decent coaching, spotting young talent, and bringing it through, rather than on paying top wages to established stars. Plus I think we can win the EL.

Did we go through last night? Still behind the sofa

 

[ShelfSide18]

I thought Walker was excellent personally.

Thinking back, I think my initial rating may have perhaps been harsh and based a little on preconception. I think he was a little rash on occasions and I did hold my breath a few times, but actually, yes, that was a good 90 minutes from him.

Just got to put a few more of them together now.

 

[Nocando]

I can see where me pointing out his failings (and for the record even the people that praise him in this thread have invariably qualified it with "but" this or "but" that) doesn't quite fit with your agenda. Must rankle.

We have people claiming Parker is the worst passer in our team, Dawson is magnificent, Gallas is a disgrace, Adebayor did nothing, Dempsey was man of the match and Walker has been our best player for the last four games and you're singling my agenda out.

Know yourself innit.

I've asked this a lot. I think I may have even asked you before. Why don't you actually tell me what you think Walker's strengths are. Apart from straight line pace that is. I'm not being facetious here, just that I know that already. Explain to me what he contributed that would make him our best player last four games.

The other players have nothing to do with walker. However I picked on you in part because on the whole you are reasoned and therefore warrants discussion (and the agenda goes against this) and in part because there may be an element of truth in the other player comments. Either that or they are so stupid they dont warrant comment (or a diff type of comment). If I think theres a large discrepancy or agenda with bias I tend to address these.

As for your q on walker this was mostly answered by the post beneath yours.

 

[Artemis]

I think the thinking behind Friedel is that he doesn't want to ostracise our second choice keeper from the squad. He knows that, should the worst happen and Lloris gets injured we have a reasonably match ready GK to step in not some guy getting steadily disillusioned on the bench never playing. It keeps both 1st and 2nd choice on their toes and with a stake in the first team.

If you specialize one GK to only play PL do you think it will be ok for him to watch all CL Match from the bench. I have a doubt.

 

[stemark44]

Why does Adebayor smile when he misses chances?

Peter Crouch did the very same thing and it used to drive me mental.

I was thinking today how much Adebayor reminds me of that other great striker we had recently Roman Pavlyuchenko and it struck me that because they are equally bad they obviously must be 'brothas from a different mutha'.

 

[theShiznit]

Peter Crouch did the very same thing and it used to drive me mental.

I was thinking today how much Adebayor reminds me of that other great striker we had recently Roman Pavlyuchenko and it struck me that because they are equally bad they obviously must be 'brothas from a different mutha'.

Difference was Pav could put his laces through a ball.

Ade is a (weak) side footing machine.

Don't think I've ever seen a worse ball striker earning a living as a footballer. (and we have a couple)

 

[sloth]

Good post Sloth, although I thought that Dempsey put in a reasonable shift yesterday from what I saw.

I think the thinking behind Friedel is that he doesn't want to ostracise our second choice keeper from the squad. He knows that, should the worst happen and Lloris gets injured we have a reasonably match ready GK to step in not some guy getting steadily disillusioned on the bench never playing. It keeps both 1st and 2nd choice on their toes and with a stake in the first team.

Another issue here is that when we look at signing an understudy for Hugo, AVB can say to the guy, 'look, you're going to get games, you can prove yourself in competitive football' etc. This may seem a little paradoxical that playing a 40 year old in goal is part of AVBs long term philosophy, but I think if you look past the immediate disadvantage that we are playing games with 2 very, very stylistically different keepers, it is the kind of long term thinking that will serve us well in the future.

The only thing I'd say about that is is that there are other PL matches you might have used Friedel in in that case, this was a EL QF, as big a match as we've had this season, and he went with the weaker player. Which is not to say it isn't part of it, or that your explanation isn't as good as mine. What we can definitely agree on is that AVB was thinking about something beyond the immediate game, however important he thought that game to be.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The other players have nothing to do with walker. However I picked on you in part because on the whole you are reasoned and therefore warrants discussion (and the agenda goes against this) and in part because there may be an element of truth in the other player comments. Either that or they are so stupid they dont warrant comment (or a diff type of comment). If I think theres a large discrepancy or agenda with bias I tend to address these.

As for your q on walker this was mostly answered by the post beneath yours.

So you agree with this explanation.

Walker has great pace...people brush it off like its worth shit but it's a fantastic asset not to be belittled. Walker is very tenacious in the tackle. Walker is aeirally good for a full back. Walker can occationally strike a ball superbly case his goal against Arsenal, I'd say his positonally good baring in mind he knows his pace and generally makes a tackle. Walker has a good attitude, Walker is Enland quality potentially first choice.

Walker has failings to iron out: Concentration the main. Walker during games will make a wrong decision with his distribution. Walker concedes unneccessary free kick when caught out of position or when his passing had gone astray. Walkers delievery is very questionable when in good attacking position which is odd because he can strike the ball well. Walker is still learing the overall package of defence and attack and I still believe his goods out weigh his bad the bads need addressing and more coaching prime example of a similiar player with said abilites needed adjusting was Kaboul when he first came to Spurs.

Well done for giving it a go.

I don't brush off his pace as shit. Far from it, I think it's his biggest asset, his redeeming feature and has served him and us well at times. I don't think he's good in the air always, he misjudges the ball quite a lot. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. Can occasionally strike a good ball ? That was over a year ago. All season he's been slicing and ballooning everything. Naughton has hit three better shots in the last couple of weeks than Walker has all season. Positionally good ? Seriously ? It may not have been terrible every game, and I think he may have improved this over the course of the season but it was pretty atrocious at the start of the season and is still less than good on occasions within games, even sometimes when he's doing ok otherwise.

I think if Walker was a clever, skilful attacker, you could forgive slight defensive foibles, and I would, but he really isn't very good going forward unless it's just a straight race. You've admitted yourself his delivery is poor (many games I'd say non existent). I think when he's put under pressure his technique suffers, almost every game this season this results in him tripping the ball into the LB at least once or giving really panicky passes and catching everyone off guard up the pitch and launching counter attacks for the opposition.

If he was a great defender you could forgive him being less than cunning attacker (like a Neville say). But his mistakes are not just about reading but as with attacking there are times when his brain and technique suffer under pressure, this results in unnecessary mistakes - last sunday he gave the ball away in and around his own box twice, all season he's made rudimentary, basic errors in almost every game.

I think he's a pretty unintelligent player at both ends of the pitch. I think he's easily rattled out of composure. Your saying he's quick, tenacious and has a good attitude. I agree with all of those. All commendable. But at some point the other things like skill, reading, technique and end product have got to take equal or even higher priority haven't they or we could be talking about anything other than football.

Pace is important, especially for a fb, especially in the modern game, but I think the rest of Walker's game is actually pretty damn poor and some of it like intelligence, reading and composure are very hard to coach they are quite natural facets.

 

[JimmyG2]

BC and N.
I'm not too sure what the point of this argument us.
If it's a polemic to prove either that Walker is the greatest thing since corrugated crisps
or complete rubbish then as usual the truth is out there but its probably somewhere in between.
He has played poorly at times this season but in the last couple of games he has
given us glimpses of the qualities that brought him rewards and accolades last year.
For a young player he is assertive, sometimes overly so, strong and very quick.
He used his raw pace against Basel not only to retrieve his own errors of positioning
but to cover the errors of others.
Against Everton it was his cut back, which Dempsey dummied which led to a goal.
This was the solution to the crossing problem that Lennon eventually came up with.
I think the boy could be coached on to become a top class player
though not necessarily at full back.