Ratings vs Liverpool

[dudu]

Was a disappointing first 60 again. Very frustrating to watch us struggle to keep the ball. Hats off to Liverpool really for their press.

Think we competed from 60 mins albeit we were far from being at our best. Ultimately so early on in the season im glad to be picking up points and I would think it will be a couple more games until we get into our stride.

Can't wait to get dembele back and if we can get a positive result in two weeks time I think we will be in a good position at this stage of the season.

 

[ultimateloner]

I think you over estimate some of the pitch warmers.

Winks next to Wanyama I would have no problem with, but even better would have been to switch to a 433 with either Alli or Onomah with Winks and Wnayama.

Onomah lost the ball a couple of times but he was being played virtually as an orthodox right midfield out on the periphery hemmed in against the touch line, he's not a wide player, try not to judge him there. He's much better in a cm role with the game in front of him.

And to be honest, how much worse can they be than a Dier who made 5 passes in the first half hour and offered very little defensive protection as Liverpool opened us up repeatedly or Alli who is hardly great as a Cm, or Kane as an ACM

I can't remember us playing 433 against a quality opposition; im certainly up for this against a weaker team at home.

I can't remember what Dier did in CM today, but he wasn't there for long was he? Got shifted to RB.
Generally i'd still prefer Dier in CM though just cuz we've been winning games.

 

[ultimateloner]

Shouldn't they be struggling to handle our high press? Poch has had three summers now, including a full one last year and a very settled young group, Klopp's been in the job less than a year, he's missing a striker, a left back and a dm, why should his side be more competent and cohesive than ours?

You are right about this. Their press caused alot more problem than ours..and i thought our defenders were better than theirs too. I cant actually remember a ball we won high up the pitch from pressing today.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I can't remember us playing 433 against a quality opposition; im certainly up for this against a weaker team at home.

I can't remember what Dier did in CM today, but he wasn't there for long was he? Got shifted to RB.
Generally i'd still prefer Dier in CM though just cuz we've been winning games.

We've won one of our last six with Dier there I believe.

 

[ultimateloner]

We've won one of our last six with Dier there I believe.

Im thinking just this season. Drawn 2 won 1. Nothing to shout about but its ok so far.

If Kane starts scoring this would be less of a problem..although i guess if we seriously want to challenge the title we have to address it sooner or later.

 

[Twizzle]

All the votes here simply show how we played and what we lack.

Back 6 were our best players, top 4 didn't do much but energy and effort were there in the second half but they still didn't rate.

What we lack is the link, or a CM which Ali is not, he is an attacker and likes to play high.

We missed Moose something bad and if he is injured or out for what ever reason, we need a Moose back up which appears to be what we are looking for.

Dier and Wanyama are both very good but too similar and we need one or the other but not both, they play too deep and there is a huge hole in the middle which was exploited by Scousers

 

[ultimateloner]

All the votes here simply show how we played and what we lack.

Back 6 were our best players, top 4 didn't do much but energy and effort were there in the second half but they still didn't rate.

What we lack is the link, or a CM which Ali is not, he is an attacker and likes to play high.

We missed Moose something bad and if he is injured or out for what ever reason, we need a Moose back up which appears to be what we are looking for.

Dier and Wanyama are both very good but too similar and we need one or the other but not both, they play too deep and there is a huge hole in the middle which was exploited by Scousers

Just dont know where to find a player with Modric's qualities...

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I think many people were expecting Liverpool to be much more porous. They weren't. Despite the lack of a dedicated defensive midfielder, they were organised and tough when we had the ball. And we didn't assist matters, as a result of some lackadaiscal passing and far too many aerial balls from the back.

Once they started to tire and we started to pass, we outplayed them. But it took an hour and, up to that point, we were hanging on and relying on our own tough defence.

The referee certainly didn't help. On at least eight occasions, coordinated Spurs attacks were halted by inconsistent and counter-intuitive refereeing decisions. Mane was scything down anyone that moved, but was being given the freedom of the park. But we were getting some pretty innocuous 50/50s blown up as fouls.

They're good, Liverpool. We stifled their attacking flair with a mixture of stout defending and excellent goalkeeping, restricted them to a semi-dubious penalty and harassed them into conceding an equaliser. It wasn't a thing of beauty, but it got us a point against a good team.


Vorm 8.5 Obviously MotM. I've never understood the grief Vorm gets from the blind tendency here. He's a bloody good goalkeeper. He just isn't Lloris. But today, he overcame the main issue that separates him from Lloris, which is his mobility. He was sweeping all over the place and doing it well. Top stuff.

Walker 7 Doing OK until he felt ill.

Alderweireld 7 The usual performance.

Vertonghen 6 OK, although needed some assistance a few times. Carried the ball out of defence well.

Rose 7 A feisty and effective game and a crucial intervention for the goal.

Dier 6 Stuck out of position for 3/4 of the match and made a competent fist of it. But there were at least 3 balls aimed into the corner that would have been accessible to,Walker, but Dier just hadn't the pace to reach them. Not his fault really.

Wanyama 8 Who says Victor can't pass? Not only did he break up play and cover the defence, he also carried the ball with intent three times and let loose with several penetrating and perceptive attacking passes that, unfortunately, others squandered.

Alli 6 Didn't achieve very much before he was moved to central midfield. Was subdued thereafter.

Lamela 6 Not on his best form today. Curiously uninvolved in the first half; came into his own more as the game wore on. Not convinced the penalty was a penalty, but I haven't seen detailed replays.

Eriksen 5 A bit less of a drag on proceedings than against Palace, but not much. Eriksen's head is not right at present. His confidence is shot and, when he gets into an attacking/creative position, he visibly hesitates for a couple of seconds, before making the wrong decision and executing it badly. Perhaps he needs to sit for a couple of games to collect himself. His issues have fuck-all to do with his reluctance to fly into tackles. He's always like that, even when he's at his best. Pochettino is obviously OK with that, because he keeps selecting him.

Kane 6.5 Excellent hold-up play, but few chances.


Janssen 6 Worked hard to little effect. Should have won a penalty.

Onomah 6.5 Unlike most others, I thought he did well. He got mobbed on the ball, but 2 out of 3 times, he came out with it, after some scrambling about. Onomah's use as a late substitute is plainly down to his ability to retain possession high up the pitch. That's what he does every time he is brought on. I'd like to see him in a match from the start as a central or advanced midfielder, to see what else he can do.

Winks NET

 

[DCSPUR]

I think many people were expecting Liverpool to be much more porous. They weren't. Despite the lack of a dedicated defensive midfielder, they were organised and tough when we had the ball. And we didn't assist matters, as a result of some lackadaiscal passing and far too many aerial balls from the back.

Once they started to tire and we started to pass, we outplayed them. But it took an hour and, up to that point, we were hanging on and relying on our own tough defence.

The referee certainly didn't help. On at least eight occasions, coordinated Spurs attacks were halted by inconsistent and counter-intuitive refereeing decisions. Mane was scything down anyone that moved, but was being given the freedom of the park. But we were getting some pretty innocuous 50/50s blown up as fouls.

They're good, Liverpool. We stifled their attacking flair with a mixture of stout defending and excellent goalkeeping, restricted them to a semi-dubious penalty and harassed them into conceding an equaliser. It wasn't a thing of beauty, but it got us a point against a good team.


Vorm 8.5 Obviously MotM. I've never understood the grief Vorm gets from the blind tendency here. He's a bloody good goalkeeper. He just isn't Lloris. But today, he overcame the main issue that separates him from Lloris, which is his mobility. He was sweeping all over the place and doing it well. Top stuff.

Walker 7 Doing OK until he felt ill.

Alderweireld 7 The usual performance.

Vertonghen 6 OK, although needed some assistance a few times. Carried the ball out of defence well.

Rose 7 A feisty and effective game and a crucial intervention for the goal.

Dier 6 Stuck out of position for 3/4 of the match and made a competent fist of it. But there were at least 3 balls aimed into the corner that would have been accessible to,Walker, but Dier just hadn't the pace to reach them. Not his fault really.

Wanyama 8 Who says Victor can't pass? Not only did he break up play and cover the defence, he also carried the ball with intent three times and let loose with several penetrating and perceptive attacking passes that, unfortunately, others squandered.

Alli 6 Didn't achieve very much before he was moved to central midfield. Was subdued thereafter.

Lamela 6 Not on his best form today. Curiously uninvolved in the first half; came into his own more as the game wore on. Not convinced the penalty was a penalty, but I haven't seen detailed replays.

Eriksen 5 A bit less of a drag on proceedings than against Palace, but not much. Eriksen's head is not right at present. His confidence is shot and, when he gets into an attacking/creative position, he visibly hesitates for a couple of seconds, before making the wrong decision and executing it badly. Perhaps he needs to sit for a couple of games to collect himself. His issues have fuck-all to do with his reluctance to fly into tackles. He's always like that, even when he's at his best. Pochettino is obviously OK with that, because he keeps selecting him.

Kane 6.5 Excellent hold-up play, but few chances.


Janssen 6 Worked hard to little effect. Should have won a penalty.

Onomah 6.5 Unlike most others, I thought he did well. He got mobbed on the ball, but 2 out of 3 times, he came out with it, after some scrambling about. Onomah's use as a late substitute is plainly down to his ability to retain possession high up the pitch. That's what he does every time he is brought on. I'd like to see him in a match from the start as a central or advanced midfielder, to see what else he can do.

Winks NET

Dave --- appreciate the decent and balanced analysis. Cheers!

 

[Klinsmannic]

I'm a fan of his but Eriksen was just terrible today. The worst I've seen him play for us. I'd give Vorm an 8, Rose a 6 and everyone else a 5 bar Eriksen who deserves the lowest rating out of everyone (just shading Kane who looks off the pace).

 

[werty]

Interesting that no one saw a change of formation for us in the second half. Maybe it was just me but after Poch gave Eriksen instructions (about 58 minutes in?) we seemed to go more 4312 with Lamela in the hole and Eriksen a lot deeper and squarer of Wanyama and Alli until we equalised.

TBH the atrocious new camera angle at WHL than they introduced a few season ago can make it tough to tell sometimes whether someone just finds themselves in a position or is meant to be there.

 

[SydneySpur]

Vorm - 9 Excellent MOM
Walker - 6 Looked off, went off.
Vertoghen - 5 Shaky and hesitant.
Toby - 8 Not his best game but 8 for effort and mopping up after Vertoghen
Rose - 8 Pretty good. Extra point for the goal
Eriksen - 0 Pathetic wimpy effort
Dier - 6 Looked lost at RB, we missed him in midfield.
Wanyama - 6.5. Did some good things, did some bad things
Alli - 5 Wasn't really impresses at all today. Getting too big for his boots
Lamela - 6.5 Effort with little impact
Kane 6 - Pretty ordinary. Looks off the pace right now.

Janssen 7 - Got stuck in, got no service but at least went and tried to win the ball.
Onomah 5 - Forgot to screw his studs into his boots?
Winks - 6.1 Better than Kane.

 

[SydneySpur]

Not sure I watched the same game as some of you lot.

6's and even a few 7's for Vertoghen???

He was abysmal!

 

[TommyGee]

I'm a fan of his but Eriksen was just terrible today. The worst I've seen him play for us. I'd give Vorm an 8, Rose a 6 and everyone else a 5 bar Eriksen who deserves the lowest rating out of everyone (just shading Kane who looks off the pace).

You didn't rate Toby?

Thought he played really well.

 

[richard_gleeson]

Am I the only one who thinks that dele isn't a number 10? The pundits keep banging on about him playing behind Kane, but for me he is not that type. He is a number 8 who can run from deep. I feel his best position is centre midfield.

Vorm, alderweireld, rose, wanyana were very good. 7's and 8's
The rest 5's and 6's

 

[THOWIG]

Was impressed with Wanyama yesterday. I know I was against signing him, but that was purely on the basis of wanting us to sign a player who could offer an alternative to Dembele or Dier whilst still being able to play alongside either of them. I never thought in my worst nightmares that we'd play him and Dier together.

 

[sloth]

I feel completely the opposite. What about managing the squad, not just your perceived favourite 11 ? What does it do for them, watching players under perform and the team play badly but them still got getting a chance ?

Healthy competition is how the best managers maintain levels of performance. SAF and Mourinho would not hesitate to kick a player - any player - up the arse and bench them for a game or two.

A player with the right attitude should react positively to being dropped when playing badly or rotated, and apart from anything else, we have a shitload of high pressure games to get through in the next 5 months, Poch is going to have to rotate properly and smartly, otherwise he's going to have to depend on players who have been marginalised and barely played for crucial stages of the season later on.

I'd agree if I thought we were talking about 'favourites', in the sense that Poch has players to whom he's irrationally attached and will play for a prolonged period of time regardless of their form.

I think players need to be picked on merit, a judgement which should include how they do on match-day as well as how they do in training as well as the effect they have on the group dynamic. Once in the team however, they deserve a chance to convincingly fail, otherwise they're under instant pressure, and resentment builds. Equally, if they've been long-term good performers within the team then they get a bit longer to show categorically they've lost that form; this is because we know they can perform.

Then there's the midfield experiment of Dier and Wanyama, which is a different category in that it's a partnership we're judging. I share your reservations on whether it should have been tried in the first place, however once tried it needs time to see whether the idea is just bad, or that there's a settling in period. An example here of where I got it wrong was at exactlly this time last year where I was holding my head in my hands every time Dier was picked in CM; Poch stuck by his judgement and that was shown to be correct over the long term.

None of that's a white ticket to go on with the players or the partnership ad infinitum; I think he's got a couple more matches and then, with no improvement, he'll have to change it up. The point being that when he does that it will breed less resentments and disharmony than had he done it earlier and seen to be capricious or hasty to judge.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Lots of players below par, definitely not playing as we can, and we're points wise doing better than this time last August, we are unbeaten and we've matched the results from last year's equivalent matches. Not brilliant stuff but not too disheartening considering the 3 or 4 gears we are yet to utilise. Despite Pochettino's protestations, I actually am glad for the international break. We now have the chance to regroup, the manager reflect, the players find some form/ confidence internationally, and all with no damage done to our league campaign.

Vorm made some astounding saves, brilliant sweeper keeper decisions and is the main reason we remained in this game.

Walker was very clearly not right to play.

Alderweireld and Vertonghen were both generally okay but were definitely caught out by runs in behind.

Rose goal summed up his game: all commitment, all energy, all refusal to be beaten. A couple of great decisions to track in behind when their runners got beyond our centre backs.

Dier was poor in midfield, but okay at right back. Hits a sweet cross.

Wanyama grew into the game and gave us some fight and energy when the chips were down.

Lamela was truly dreadful. Constant poor decisions.

Alli was okay once moved deeper, but is definitely subdued at the moment.

Eriksen was sloppy, weak and had the heart of a flea. Several opposition counter attacks came from his bad decisions or lack of bottle.

Kane continues to be off colour. Needs a goal badly to help him find his mojo.

Janssen was well marshalled by Lovren, but put himself about well at least. Also needs a goal.

Onomah got involved straight away but was not overly effective.

Winks came on.

 

[Supersi32]

Shouldn't they be struggling to handle our high press? Poch has had three summers now, including a full one last year and a very settled young group, Klopp's been in the job less than a year, he's missing a striker, a left back and a dm, why should his side be more competent and cohesive than ours?

I think Liverpool did look more cohesive in their pressing yesterday although I do think there are some mitigating circumstances to understand why, I think there are subtle differences in how both Klopp and Poch want their teams to press the ball, Klopp prefering a more full court press to Poch's more selective half court version, also as you alluded too in your previous posts, having Eriksen and Lamela woefully out of touch currently doesn't help...another big problem is the gaping big Dembele (less) hole in midfield, his ability to beat a man off a standing dribble instantly creates space for others and we are desperately missing his influence. All in all Liverpool as a team outran us by 1km yesterday, so our effort is there albeit as you say less cohesive collectively than Liverpool.

 

[Klinsmannic]

You didn't rate Toby?

Thought he played really well.

Their front 3 ran rings around us at times and they would have scored a couple more goals were it not for Vorm. We looked very porous at the back. None of our defensive players came out with any credit imo.