'Rooney rule'

[mightyspur]

So this is nothing to do with Wayne, but more Dan Rooney from the NFL that stipulates that at least one black, or ethnic minority must be interviewed and be a candidate for a head coach role vacancy. He has said that British football has nothing to lose by adopting it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29464078

I honestly find this rather odd though. Isn't it kind of implying that football clubs are deliberately not interviewing a candidate because of the colour of their skin? How exactly will a rule forcing clubs to interview someone they may not have decided to meet because they felt they were not up to the job based on their experience benefit anyone? If anything it will probably mean clubs are accused of more racism because they are still not actually employing the black or ethnic minority they have interviewed, because despite being black they still don't actually have the necessary experience?!

Could it be there aren't that many black manages / coaches in the top flight because there aren't actually that many black managers or coaches full stop? Maybe they haven't done the necessary coaching badges etc? Could it be that those that have just aren't that good? Or are we saying that most clubs are inherently racist and are simply not offering the role based on the colour of the candidates skin?

 

[Good Doctor M]

So this is nothing to do with Wayne, but more Dan Rooney from the NFL that stipulates that at least one black, or ethnic minority must be interviewed and be a candidate for a head coach role vacancy. He has said that British football has nothing to lose by adopting it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29464078

I honestly find this rather odd though. Isn't it kind of implying that football clubs are deliberately not interviewing a candidate because of the colour of their skin? How exactly will a rule forcing clubs to interview someone they may not have decided to meet because they felt they were not up to the job based on their experience benefit anyone? If anything it will probably mean clubs are accused of more racism because they are still not actually employing the black or ethnic minority they have interviewed, because despite being black they still don't actually have the necessary experience?!

Could it be there aren't that many black manages / coaches in the top flight because there aren't actually that many black managers or coaches full stop? Maybe they haven't done the necessary coaching badges etc? Could it be that those that have just aren't that good? Or are we saying that most clubs are inherently racist and are simply not offering the role based on the colour of the candidates skin?

Clubs aren't inherently racist, but society is. There are less black managers for the same reason there are less black politicians, less black CEO's, less black people in the global positions of power. Opportunity, background and wealth. There's a long, long essay to be written on the socio-political reasons, but no, it's not simply that football is inherently racist, it's that the society in which we live is. And I don't mean overtly racist, it's much subtler than that.

There are less black managers, and shoehorning them into positions as managers despite their numbers being less in comparison to white managers succeeds in breaking to some extent the staus quo.

Positive discrimmination doesn't cure this inherent racism, but rather speeds up the natural process of a general shift towards equality.

 

[Coyboy]

Interesting question, I don't think you can answer the last one. It's akin to telepathy. What this does do is give opportunities to black coaches to show what they can do at interview when otherwise they may have been discarded or omitted. If it's similar to affirmative action regarding university admissions in the States, I think it's a good thing.

Of course the right person should get the job, but there's been generations of racism throughout society not just football. I agree that there probably just aren't that many black coaches because those that played in the 80s and 90s are only just retiring and many ex players- black or white- just don't want to get into coaching now. Whether there is a systematic element of racism preventing black coaches is unclear. But if Paul Ince, Chris Hughton and others aren't getting interviews and as more and more black players retire and go into coaching (such as Ledley) then if they aren't getting jobs or interviews then questions will surely be asked.

 

[CornerPinDreamer]

The very fact we are having this conversation means something is wrong and nothing is being done to sort it.

 

[mightyspur]

Clubs aren't inherently racist, but society is. There are less black managers for the same reason there are less black politicians, less black CEO's, less black people in the global positions of power. Opportunity, background and wealth. There's a long, long essay to be written on the socio-political reasons, but no, it's not simply that football is inherently racist, it's that the society in which we live is. And I don't mean overtly racist, it's much subtler than that.

There are less black managers, and shoehorning them into positions as managers despite their numbers being less in comparison to white managers succeeds in breaking to some extent the staus quo.

Positive discrimmination doesn't cure this inherent racism, but rather speeds up the natural process of a general shift towards equality.

I'm a white man and have never experienced (or knowingly experienced) racism. For that reason I think it is difficult for me to have a particularly valid opinion, but is society (and I mean within the UK) still inherently racist? I'm not entirely sure it is. I work in financial services and work with many respected individuals in positions of power and a large number of them are black or of an "ethnic minority". What do you define as subtle racism?

Most managers / coaches played football. Couldn't the fact be as simple as there just hasn't been that many black players in the UK? I mean through 70's and 80's there were hardly any playing top flight football. Of those, how many went on to do their coaching badges? I can't imagine it was a great deal. Now something like 25% are black, so who is to say in 20 years or so and they have retired and a larger number purely based on the increase in numbers do their coaching badge, we start seeing a greater number of black managers.

Surely another thing with the stats is there are currently 2 black managers in the 92 league clubs. So a shade over 2%. We know that currently 25% of are black Anyone able to tell me what the total percentage of black players was in the 80's and 90's when Ince / Houghton were actually playing? And also the total percentage of white players that actually went on to become coaches. Surely if there is massive disparity between those figures we can claim there is a problem with racism, otherwise it simply comes down to the numbers?

 

[mightyspur]

The very fact we are having this conversation means something is wrong and nothing is being done to sort it.

I don't really understand your response?

 

[aliyid]

It's laughable really that we're even having this sort of conversation in this day and age but where do you stop?

Should every football managers job have a minimum of 7 candidates who each fall into seperate politically correct categories incl disabled, asian, muslim, ginger, etc...

I've got no doubt that over the next 10-20 years there will be more black managers in the game but that will have nothing to do with forcing a rooney rule type of act it will have more to do with the number of ex-pros of that ethnicity being old enough / experienced enough to start a career in management. You'd probably say that 1 out of every 50 Premiership players will go on to become a manager (plenty more as coaches).

I don't see that race comes into the equation at all but more like

1. Management Experience
2. Playing Experience
3. Knowledge of Club / fan base

You have many occasions where managers are given opportunities based on their playing experience (Sherwood, Ince, Southgate, Pearce, Barnes) when they have had very little to no success in management.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I wish Paul Ince wasn't such a spokesperson on this. He makes out as if the reason he doesn't have a job is because of his skin colour rather than the fact that he was an absolute bag of wank as a manager.

But that's by-the-by. I think that with more and more black players in the game generally now, if we don't start to see that filter into management soon then you do have to wonder why.

I don't know if this 'Rooney rule' approach is necessarily the right idea, and I certainly don't think it should be a long term measure as true equality only comes when the colour of a person's skin isn't even considered (rather than there being any positive discrimination). But I'm also not sure what the alternatives are.

 

[hashmander]

the rooney rule doesn't force teams to hire minority coaches. you just have to interview one. the goal behind it was to expose people to the process and get their name out there and then maybe someone would eventually hire them after hearing their name repeatedly. nfl owners are a tight bunch and they talk "you know so and so was a good interview and he had good ideas, just wasn't the right fit for us, you should check him out."

same as with real world job searches, the more you apply, the more chances you have to get an interview. the more interviews you get, the more chances you have to get a job.

 

[UncleBuck]

Surely there needs to be a rule implemented that an English manager needs to be interviewed as well in that case seeing as there are so few of them about.....

 

[mightyspur]

Surely there needs to be a rule implemented that an English manager needs to be interviewed as well in that case seeing as there are so few of them about.....

And women. Don't forget the women.

 

[Kendall]

I'm never really a fan of positive discrimination as a remedy.

I don't think there is a huge lack of black coaches because they're black, there was quite a few a couple of years ago (relatively speaking). They were all sacked because they were all shit, not because they were black.

 

[Metalhead]

Clubs aren't inherently racist, but society is. There are less black managers for the same reason there are less black politicians, less black CEO's, less black people in the global positions of power. Opportunity, background and wealth. There's a long, long essay to be written on the socio-political reasons, but no, it's not simply that football is inherently racist, it's that the society in which we live is. And I don't mean overtly racist, it's much subtler than that.

There are less black managers, and shoehorning them into positions as managers despite their numbers being less in comparison to white managers succeeds in breaking to some extent the staus quo.

Positive discrimmination doesn't cure this inherent racism, but rather speeds up the natural process of a general shift towards equality.

Couldn't agree more. People seem to think that racism is always overt or a conscious act. I am not really in favour of positive discrimination because it doesn't really address the problem; however, I guess if the issue can be dealt with in a perhaps cruder way then the mindset element may eventually take hold.

 

[Metalhead]

It's laughable really that we're even having this sort of conversation in this day and age but where do you stop?

Should every football managers job have a minimum of 7 candidates who each fall into seperate politically correct categories incl disabled, asian, muslim, ginger, etc...

I've got no doubt that over the next 10-20 years there will be more black managers in the game but that will have nothing to do with forcing a rooney rule type of act it will have more to do with the number of ex-pros of that ethnicity being old enough / experienced enough to start a career in management. You'd probably say that 1 out of every 50 Premiership players will go on to become a manager (plenty more as coaches).

I don't see that race comes into the equation at all but more like

1. Management Experience
2. Playing Experience
3. Knowledge of Club / fan base

You have many occasions where managers are given opportunities based on their playing experience (Sherwood, Ince, Southgate, Pearce, Barnes) when they have had very little to no success in management.

I think that we're still having this kind of conversation because there is evidently an issue that remains unresolved. Overt racism still clearly exists so why wouldn't it still be in the mindsets of many people?

 

[yankspurs]

There have been alot of black coaches in american football. Most have since retired or been fired for being terrible coaches. Alot of people actually think the rooney rule has done more harm than good. Not sure I agree with it though as there have been alot more black coaches getting opportunitites since it's institution.

 

[Danners9]

Someone needs to prove this is actually a 'problem' first. Saying there are very few black managers is not proof. There are plenty of black coaches around in the backroom staff of clubs (mostly the youth set ups) and plenty community coaches, too. There are plenty of black ex-players who go into TV or radio rather than coaching, especially as the money involved in football became higher and higher at the same time the league became less 'white', shall we say, and the sons of migrants/players from overseas started coming through. That means there's less reason to take on a job after playing.

First we need to see who applied for the jobs and who was chosen, then we can decide if the decision is unfair in any way - examine the relationships between clubs and staff. Palace hire Warnock because he's done the job before and the chairman trusts him. Or, the Chelsea job is open. Paul Ince, John Barnes and Jose Mourinho apply. Just because Mourinho/Warnock gets the job doesn't mean there's any racism in the decision.

There was a stat before where such a small percentage of managers in the English pyramid actually had their coaching badges, especially at a lower level where not all of them are required.

Being under-represented isn't an indication of racism. Under-represented based on black players, black fans, black people in the country..? yes, definitely, however there are other factors.

How about this: First, get everyone up to the required standard. Then decide if there is a problem.

Encouraging more people of all shades and backgrounds to take their coaching badges would result in more coaches being qualified for the role they want. Then if there's any discrimination in the interview process it would be more obvious. If some aren't qualified and some are then it's an easy decision regardless of race and any requirement to interview based on skin colour is unnecessary.

However, if there is indeed a problem with clubs being racist against others then it should be dealt with.

 

[Metalhead]

There have been alot of black coaches in american football. Most have since retired or been fired for being terrible coaches. Alot of people actually think the rooney rule has done more harm than good. Not sure I agree with it though as there have been alot more black coaches getting opportunitites since it's institution.

I don't think that it is necessarily ideal but until we get to the stage where people can have a mindset that they truly only look at who is the best candidate then maybe it's the only way to ensure that black candidates are given consideration. When one sits down and thinks about it, it is really crazy that someone's colour has any bearing on their suitability.

 

[Woland]

Guess how many black managers are in charge of African National teams?
19 out of 57.
33%
Oh, and 4 out of those 19 are caretakers.
Oh, and any teams of note on that list are Nigeria and Ghana.

I don't understand why in Africa are not interviewing enough black managers. Weird... Paul Ince could have been in the frame to lead, say, Equatorial Guinea, why not, they have a black guy from Brazil in charge. Instead, over 50% of Africa's head coaches are as white as spermatozoa.

Africa's football associations should adopt Rooney Rule to even things out.