SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[Spurs_Bear]

I added this as an edit to my post above, but you replied before seeing it so I'll add it here too:

Another thing worth pointing out was the fear we felt last season whenever Harry was forced to play Defoe as the lone striker. This season it's been almost common, and in latter matches we haven't had a single striker to draw on. When you consider VdV's goals were also sold, and Modric's creativity, then it's incredible that we've scored as many, and testament to the team's ability to get the most out of what they've got.

Not sure what our midfield chipped in with last season, it seemed like we mainly played Parker and Modric with support from Livermore, Sandro and Thudd? If so then Sandro scored 1, I don't know how many Modric got? And the others got none.

I remember Modric getting one against Liverpool from outside the box, and a volley against Bolton away? Apart from that not a great deal.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

How many goals have Cleverly and Carrick scored this season?

Cleverley has a couple I think, not sure how many games he's played though, not sure about Carrick.

EDIT: Cleverley has 4 in all comps and Carrick 1 Champions League goal.

 

[Mr Pink]

Cleverley has a couple I think, not sure how many games he's played though, not sure about Carrick.

EDIT: Cleverley has 4 in all comps and Carrick 1 Champions League goal.

In the League though I don't think they have more than 2-3 between them. Chelsea always seem to score a truck load, not just an advanced Lampard but even Ramires scores his fair share.

 

[felmani26]

How many goals have Cleverly and Carrick scored this season?

Cleverley - 4
Carrick - 1

 

[Lo Amo Speroni]

I think you skipped the Keith Burkinshaw era.

What was it, two FA Cups and a Uefa Cup. Harry did a good job, but KB did more.

Different times though, I accept.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Several players seem to have flourished under AVB....Defoe and Dawson have done relatively well with him. Lennon seems to have developed determination on the defensive side while Bale is coming off the wing and being particularly effective. One ongoing worry for me....but not a massive one is the almost complete absence of goal contribution from any central midfield combination of players we put in there! Any ideas on this one?

A very relevant point, but I think this is more a problem of personnel than coaching. Even as a striker/am Dembele was not prolific. And Parker and Sandro get nose bleeds up there.

My solution would be to buy someone like Cabaye.

 

[felmani26]

I think there are valid points regarding goal contribution as a squad but this is where I think Holtby will prove his worth as you could see he was getting into great positions regularly against Newcastle and seemed to be a magnet to the ball just outside the penalty area.

He is also, not shy to take a shot on either first time or with a touch which is a major bug bear with some of our players like Lennon and, in particular, Dembele who seems to do all he can not to take a shot on.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

A very relevant point, but I think this is more a problem of personnel than coaching. Even as a striker/am Dembele was not prolific. And Parker and Sandro get nose bleeds up there.

My solution would be to buy someone like Cabaye.

I like Cabaye, but how would you then see our midfield lining up?

 

[Mr Pink]

A very relevant point, but I think this is more a problem of personnel than coaching. Even as a striker/am Dembele was not prolific. And Parker and Sandro get nose bleeds up there.

My solution would be to buy someone like Cabaye.

I like Cabaye as well, but not sure how we would accommodate him with Sandro, Dembele and Holtby though.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I like Cabaye as well, but not sure how we would accommodate him with Sandro, Dembele and Holtby though.

Echo...

 

[Adam]

I do worry about our lack of goals if Holtby is going to come in and play as a number 10 instead of Dempsey. To be clear, there is NO doubt who is the better player, it's Lewis without question, but if you say, for the sake of argument that our first choice front 6 from now until May is going to be:-

Dembele
Parker
Lennon
Bale
Holtby
Adebayor

then between them, they have 23 league goals this season, 13 of which coming from one player.

That has to be a concern, especially as our full backs aren't going to chip in in the same way as someone like Evra/Baines has done this season.

I know he isn't a particularly popular player, but I think we will need Dempsey's goals in the last 12 games of the season if we are going to get into the top four. Personally, I don't think Parker does enough to warrant a start anymore, and against most teams, I would play Holtby next to a deeper, more disciplined Dembele with Dempsey as a number 10 behind Adebayor. Otherwise, I just don't see us scoring enough goals as a team, and we will continue to be totally dependent on Gareth to produce in order to win points.

 

[Mr Pink]

I do worry about our lack of goals if Holtby is going to come in and play as a number 10 instead of Dempsey. To be clear, there is NO doubt who is the better player, it's Lewis without question, but if you say, for the sake of argument that our first choice front 6 from now until May is going to be:-

Dembele
Parker
Lennon
Bale
Holtby
Adebayor

then between them, they have 23 league goals this season, 13 of which coming from one player.

That has to be a concern, especially as our full backs aren't going to chip in in the same way as someone like Evra/Baines has done this season.

I know he isn't a particularly popular player, but I think we will need Dempsey's goals in the last 12 games of the season if we are going to get into the top four. Personally, I don't think Parker does enough to warrant a start anymore, and against most teams, I would play Holtby next to a deeper, more disciplined Dembele with Dempsey as a number 10 behind Adebayor. Otherwise, I just don't see us scoring enough goals as a team, and we will continue to be totally dependent on Gareth to produce in order to win points.

We have to see how we function with Holtby in the side for an extended period but I do agree with the gist of what you're saying.

Actually, if we need a goal I would like to see a front 6 like this:

Dembele
Holtby

Lennon
Bale
Dempsey

Adebayor

I think Dempsey is far more effective cutting in from the left, he just looks awkward in the number ten role. Give Bale a more central role with freedom to roam. I think there would certainly be more goals in that set up.

 

[Adam]

We have to see how we function with Holtby in the side for an extended period but I do agree with the gist of what you're saying.

Actually, if we need a goal I would like to see a front 6 like this:

Dembele
Holtby

Lennon
Bale
Dempsey

Adebayor

I think Dempsey is far more effective cutting in from the left, he just looks awkward in the number ten role. Give Bale a more central role with freedom to roam. I think there would certainly be more goals in that set up.

Id agree with that, as long as Benny is playing to offer width down the left

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I like Cabaye, but how would you then see our midfield lining up?

I like Cabaye as well, but not sure how we would accommodate him with Sandro, Dembele and Holtby though.

If you want to continue with 4231 with Holtby in the hole then you would simply have to swap one of the "2" to accommodate him, or we switch to a 433.

The question with Cabaye is exactly the same as the question for Moutinho. And everyone wanted Moutinho. Moutinho scores less goals than Cabaye does on average.

If Holtby starts chipping in with assists and goals then the need for our cm2 to chip in becomes less important. But he's never been exactly prolific.

With 4231, you really need your "3" & "1" to be productive. It's very, very hard to find good defensive midfielders who can play in a 2, that are also good attacking ones. Yaya Toure being exceptional.

This was one of the reasons I was a staunch defender of Jenas and would constantly choose him over Huddlestone. In his first few seasons Jenas was playing in a CM2, would get through more ball than Hudd, but would also chip in with 4-6 goals a season as well as assists and still get up and down the pitch all game long. Everyone would cream themselves over Hudd's one stupendous diagonal a game, and under value the simple but effective job Jenas did successfully for about 4 years solid.

Jenas's goal return in his first four seasons was 6,6,4,4 all while playing in a cm2.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

If you want to continue with 4231 with Holtby in the hole then you would simply have to swap one of the "2" to accommodate him, or we switch to a 433.

The question with Cabaye is exactly the same as the question for Moutinho. And everyone wanted Moutinho. Moutinho scores less goals than Cabaye does on average.

If Holtby starts chipping in with assists and goals then the need for our cm2 to chip in becomes less important. But he's never been exactly prolific.

With 4231, you really need your "3" & "1" to be productive. It's very, very hard to find good defensive midfielders who can play in a 2, that are also good attacking ones. Yaya Toure being exceptional.

This was one of the reasons I was a staunch defender of Jenas and would constantly choose him over Huddlestone. In his first few seasons Jenas was playing in a CM2, would get through more ball than Hudd, but would also chip in with 4-6 goals a season as well as assists and still get up and down the pitch all game long. Everyone would cream themselves over Hudd's one stupendous diagonal a game, and under value the simple but effective job Jenas did successfully for about 4 years solid.

Jenas's goal return in his first four seasons was 6,6,4,4 all while playing in a cm2.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I get all that, not disagreeing you sausage, but I want your god damn midfield. No fuck it, I want your front 6 in both a 433 and a 4231 if we were to sign Cabaye in the next 5 minutes or it's over.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I get all that, not disagreeing you sausage, but I want your god damn midfield. No fuck it, I want your front 6 in both a 433 and a 4231 if we were to sign Cabaye in the next 5 minutes or it's over.

Don't say it's over. I can't bear(see what I did) it. Just say Au revoir Cabaye.

Sorry, got to go to docs. Fucked knee. back later with formations and wotnot.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Don't say it's over. I can't bear(see what I did) it. Just say Au revoir Cabaye.

Sorry, got to go to docs. Fucked knee. back later with formations and wotnot.

Busy ****.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Busy ****.

More **** than busy these days.


You either go:

----Cabaye----AN Other Busy ****
ARM-------ACM-------ALM
---------Adebayor


or

--Cabaye-----Sandro-----Dembele
ARM/OR--------Adebayor-----ALM/OL


Just out of interest, what do you think we'd have done if we'd signed Moutinho like AVB and everyone wanted ?

 

[Spurs_Bear]

More **** than busy these days.


You either go:

----Cabaye----AN Other Busy ****
ARM-------ACM-------ALM
---------Adebayor


or

--Cabaye-----Sandro-----Dembele
ARM/OR--------Adebayor-----ALM/OL


Just out of interest, what do you think we'd have done if we'd signed Moutinho like AVB and everyone wanted ?

I know how it would set up you monster, I was interested in your personnel and who you would have canned.

I'm not sure, I reckon we'd have seen 433 and gone:

Sandro​

Moutinho Dembele​

Lennon Adebayor Bale​

​

Which would still have made me worry about the goals. Would Holtby have then been a wide forward so to speak?​

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I know how it would set up you monster, I was interested in your personnel and who you would have canned.

I'm not sure, I reckon we'd have seen 433 and gone:

Sandro​

Moutinho Dembele​

Lennon Adebayor Bale​

​

Which would still have made me worry about the goals. Would Holtby have then been a wide forward so to speak?​

Who I would have replaced would depend on the circumstances. Both Cabaye and Dembele can get stuck in (in fact to each other on Saturday) so you're not losing much tenacity by playing those two. If you want more robustness you can stick Sandro next to Cabaye.

Both Dembele and Holtby can play further forward as well.