Spurs under 21, under 18 Leagues and other youth news

[Spursidol]

I don't doubt that if we get a loan offer for one of our U-21 players, and we think that they'll be a starter at a good level, then we'll let them go. Winning the U-21 league would be great but it surely can't be prioritised over getting players senior game time (MAson has already been loaned out).

Definitely agree with that - and we have -plenty of players in the development squad in midfield (and even the Academy) to cover Carroll's absence on a loan.

Generally I think we could stretch to cover in other positions too.

 

[SlickMongoose]

Lets hope that more of the January loans work out

I'm wondering if Mason or Coulibaly will get a game.

I also wonder if we could use the link with San Jose a little more. i'm not up with the intricacies of their roster system but the MLS has clearly been good for Dawkins, and you'd think the players would jump at the chance for a few months in California. Maybe there are work permit issues?

 

[sloth]

All good.

What I was trying to get at - is whether you agree that if a player who is not a regular u 21 player goes to a mid table Championship side, the logic is that most of the u 21 side are likely to be able to compete in/with mid table Championship sides or higher (such as a lower PL side like QPR).

I'm not sure about 'most', because we can't assume there have been offers for all the Academy players, for whatever reason, but I agree with the gist. Those teams of course will feel they're taking a punt, and whether the players once recruited get game time is another matter entirely and one of the reasons the club has to be very careful about who they send out and to where!

 

[Spursidol]

I do not think we should play our first team in every competition, last year I praised Harry for his policy of playing youth in the EL, the previous year I was annoyed that he didn't put out a team which had a good chance of beating Arsenal in the first round, not because I wanted to win it per se (though obviously I did), but because it threw away the opportunity to use it a a nursery competition for our younger and also new recruits (Sandro, for example, had to wait another 8 months before he got his chance against Milan in the San Siro ). So I think context is key. Next year I fully expect - and hope - that AVB will rotate youth team players into the first team in the Cup competitions. If we have qualified for CL then he won't be able to do it in that competition, but he should use the CC and FA Cup to that purpose. If we qualify for the EL instead, then I think the early rounds are the perfect time to play the youth and give our first-team players a rest. I would also like to see our Academy players, like Pritchard, going on loans to suitable clubs either in the Championship or the PL, or overseas even. In short I completely and 100% support the notion of planning a route to the first team for our developing academy players, last season I was a vocal critic of Harry for precisely the reason that he was incapable (imo) of maximising the potential or our Academy, and I predicted that Harry would soon be replaced because of this. What I've disagreed with in this thread is the assertion that we're not making best use of our Academy, that we're not doing a fabulous job with it, that we're harming the prospects of the academy players, and that we've either not planned, or are not implementing a planned path through to the first team for our academy players.

What I am saying is that we could do better - quite a lot better IMO - that's not to say we sare doiing badly now, but we can certainly improve.

One easy example would be that out of a 7 man bench to consistently have one or two youth (mainly 20//21 year olds) on the bench, allowing of course 5 or 6 first teamers on the bench of which only 3 can come onto the field.

From time to time AVB will deicide to bring on one of the youth into a match if appropriate.

That is the kind of improvement that is easily made and makes almost no impact on having a strong first team.

Another example would be better pre-season planning as to how much we will involve youth, and how much we want to loan them out. Possibly this was more difficult at the start of this season than it will be next season (as AVB will be more familar with the players) - but it does need to either improve, or of its nmot happening it needs to be omplemented.

On another note - there seems to be better implementation of individual coiaching of players , both fiorst team players to get them pressurising the oppositioin, but also on some players. In the yoyth set up I am sure Obika has received a lot of coaching to improve his game this season. So its good news on that front.

 

[Spursidol]

I'm not sure about 'most', because we can't assume there have been offers for all the Academy players, for whatever reason, but I agree with the gist. Those teams of course will feel they're taking a punt, and whether the players once recruited get game time is another matter entirely and one of the reasons the club has to be very careful about who they send out and to where!

Absolutely agree - see my earlier post where examples I gave of Mason and Fredericks - and why I await confirmation that we will not run into similar problems with Mason, Coulibaly and Gomelt on their January loans

 

[Bill_Oddie]

Definitely agree with that - and we have -plenty of players in the development squad in midfield (and even the Academy) to cover Carroll's absence on a loan.

Generally I think we could stretch to cover in other positions too.

Cheers (and SM!).

Interesting as I guess winning this would be highly desirable. Having a tight group of young talent who have won such a challenging, prestigious trophy so early in their career, and won it as a group, would be wonderful. For them and us. Can't help but think of that famous Man Utd youth cup winning side of Beckham, Giggs, Butt et al (yes, I know we're not at that level, but you'll get the point).

It would also, perhaps, make it easier to attract the best young talent in future. I could understand McDermott, AVB, Levy, whoever, deciding that we'll give this a really good go. But equally, the 10-12 games left for a player say fighting for a play-off spot or in a relegation battle in the Championship would teach them so much that I suppose I agree that this is even more valuable.

Thankfully, it's not necessarily an "either/or" situation.

 

[Spursidol]

Cheers (and SM!).

Interesting as I guess winning this would be highly desirable. Having a tight group of young talent who have won such a challenging, prestigious trophy so early in their career, and won it as a group, would be wonderful. For them and us. Can't help but think of that famous Man Utd youth cup winning side of Beckham, Giggs, Butt et al (yes, I know we're not at that level, but you'll get the point).

It would also, perhaps, make it easier to attract the best young talent in future. I could understand McDermott, AVB, Levy, whoever, deciding that we'll give this a really good go. But equally, the 10-12 games left for a player say fighting for a play-off spot or in a relegation battle in the Championship would teach them so much that I suppose I agree that this is even more valuable.

Thankfully, it's not necessarily an "either/or" situation.

Agree with all that.

By way of background we have about 2 dozen in the Professionals plus at this time of the season we sare starting to try out a few Academy Year 2 guys out in the u21's (Shaq Coulthirst for example has played a game or two). We have loaned out maybe a third of those two dozen so could easily loan out another 3 or 4 players - maybe making sure we keep enough to cover all positions - whilst making an excellent fist of winning the u21 league or at least doing well in it.

BTW even boards such as RAWK werre acknowledging that Spurs had the best youth team and set up when we played them at u 21's a week ago. Quite funny to find they were doing that as they are totally deluded with their first team.

 

[SlickMongoose]

Agree with all that.

By way of background we have about 2 dozen in the Professionals plus at this time of the season we sare starting to try out a few Academy Year 2 guys out in the u21's (Shaq Coulthirst for example has played a game or two). We have loaned out maybe a third of those two dozen so could easily loan out another 3 or 4 players - maybe making sure we keep enough to cover all positions - whilst making an excellent fist of winning the u21 league or at least doing well in it.

BTW even boards such as RAWK werre acknowledging that Spurs had the best youth team and set up when we played them at u 21's a week ago. Quite funny to find they were doing that as they are totally deluded with their first team.

It is often the case that the dedicated youth threads on a forum contain the most sensible posters......

 

[Bus-Conductor]

In a previous life I watched a lot of football as part of my job, including stuff from around the world, a case in point being the J-League, if you watch their matches as stand-alone (which I'm sure you have) it's not clear where the deficiency between their league and ours lies, perhaps some of the high-end stuff is missing, but on the whole they play a slick, passing game. Stick one of their teams in a top European league though and it would sink without trace, they'd suddenly look deficient all over the place.

You say you're basing your judgement on a single game you went to, and perhaps a couple of the games which were shown on the internet? I say I don't trust your judgement based on that limited experience, I say that to judge their ability you have to see them up against the established players. I trust the coaches - whom I respect as coaches - to be better placed to decide whether an u21 player or Clint Dempsey is the better option, because, for one thing, they see them up against each other regularly on the training ground. The fact that the rising star of the kids went to Peterborough says it all for me.

Why do you respect them as coaches ? What do you know about the people coaching our development group ?

I'm not saying I don't respect them, but I know virtually nothing about them. I knew more about Alex Inglethorpe, and what I knew I liked. I liked what I read and saw of his approach and his ethos/methodology. I liked what I saw of the young footballers he was in charge of teaching. Not just the odd individual, but collectively, I was very impressed with what our young players were doing as a unit, how they were interacting on the pitch.

Now, maybe the coaches still in place are continuing that work, I certainly hope so. I did read a long article about Chris Ramsey, but it didn't really tell me much about his abilities as a coach. I haven't been able to watch a game since that Barca game, so I cannot conclusively say much about how we are playing now, but results (the cup game aside) seem good.

As far as the old "I trust the experts" line goes, I don't completely buy it. Never will where football is concerned. Football managers and coaches are the most fallible bunch of employees on gods earth. Largely poorly educated, under qualified, ex-pros, often employed based on who their dressing room mucker was, not for their innovative or insightful approach to teaching human beings.

If managers and coaches were infallible, they wouldn't continually need replacing. And I don't care who prefer's Dempsey, if he's the answer, the wrong question is being asked.

 

[sloth]

Why do you respect them as coaches ? What do you know about the people coaching our development group ?

I'm not saying I don't respect them, but I know virtually nothing about them. I knew more about Alex Inglethorpe, and what I knew I liked. I liked what I read and saw of his approach and his ethos/methodology. I liked what I saw of the young footballers he was in charge of teaching. Not just the odd individual, but collectively, I was very impressed with what our young players were doing as a unit, how they were interacting on the pitch.

Now, maybe the coaches still in place are continuing that work, I certainly hope so. I did read a long article about Chris Ramsey, but it didn't really tell me much about his abilities as a coach. I haven't been able to watch a game since that Barca game, so I cannot conclusively say much about how we are playing now, but results (the cup game aside) seem good.

As far as the old "I trust the experts" line goes, I don't completely buy it. Never will where football is concerned. Football managers and coaches are the most fallible bunch of employees on gods earth. Largely poorly educated, under qualified, ex-pros, often employed based on who their dressing room mucker was, not for their innovative or insightful approach to teaching human beings.

If managers and coaches were infallible, they wouldn't continually need replacing. And I don't care who prefer's Dempsey, if he's the answer, the wrong question is being asked.

I don't trust them simply because they're 'experts', as we know from every field of human endeavour it's often the 'experts' who are the problem! I mean I trust AVB and his team to be able to decide whether a youth prospect should be getting PL playing time ahead of their established players. I also mean, based on the track record of the club to date in getting players through the Academy and into PL teams, many into our own team, and the evidence of our current crop of academy players, that they know how to develop players, that they're well aware of the issues (indeed one of the reasons Harry was replaced, imo, was that he wasn't strong in this regard), and they have a strategy in place which takes account of your worries. So, I reject the assertion, based, as far as I can tell, on little more than reading the tea-leaves, that the club doesn't know what it's doing. Now if you were an insider, or if it was a situation in which far more information was available to us as onlookers, or the club had a track record of failing in this regard, I would have to factor that in, but that isn't the case, so I say what I have said.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

In a previous life I watched a lot of football as part of my job, including stuff from around the world, a case in point being the J-League, if you watch their matches as stand-alone (which I'm sure you have) it's not clear where the deficiency between their league and ours lies, perhaps some of the high-end stuff is missing, but on the whole they play a slick, passing game. Stick one of their teams in a top European league though and it would sink without trace, they'd suddenly look deficient all over the place.

You say you're basing your judgement on a single game you went to, and perhaps a couple of the games which were shown on the internet? I say I don't trust your judgement based on that limited experience, I say that to judge their ability you have to see them up against the established players. I trust the coaches - whom I respect as coaches - to be better placed to decide whether an u21 player or Clint Dempsey is the better option, because, for one thing, they see them up against each other regularly on the training ground. The fact that the rising star of the kids went to Peterborough says it all for me.

Sorry Sloth, my answer is in two parts. Re the football and players. That the 19 yo Pritchard is considered ready to go and play in the second tier of this country (containing teams that 1 or 2 years ago were EPL teams and lots of players with EPL experience) is IMO a tribute to how highly he is regarded.

We have just spent a very large sum of money building one of the best training facilities in Europe. Most of us understand that we do not have the resources to compete with the likes of ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, ManC (not to mention another 20 or so clubs around Europe) in the transfer/wage market.

Our only answer is to not just find talented individuals, but to coach all the kids using the best possible methodology and philosophy, so that even the less exceptionally talented ones can at the very least perform a service to the senior squad - even if just in the short term - and be valued enough to be worth something to another club if deemed ultimately not good enough for us.

Arsenal and ManU have been pretty good at this over the years. But this will break down (as we have seen and Spursidol has alluded to) and go to waste if we fill the first team squad with ****s like Dempsey. Talentless, limited, slow witted, ordinary footballers.

As strongly as you feel about us being bought by a sugar daddy, I feel about wasting resources - and mainly the years of coaching a young footballer - for players like Dempsey to take their squad slot. It completely kills the whole point of of an academy.

 

[sloth]

Sorry Sloth, my answer is in two parts. Re the football and players. That the 19 yo Pritchard is considered ready to go and play in the second tier of this country (containing teams that 1 or 2 years ago were EPL teams and lots of players with EPL experience) is IMO a tribute to how highly he is regarded.

We have just spent a very large sum of money building one of the best training facilities in Europe. Most of us understand that we do not have the resources to compete with the likes of ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, ManC (not to mention another 20 or so clubs around Europe) in the transfer/wage market.

Our only answer is to not just find talented individuals, but to coach all the kids using the best possible methodology and philosophy, so that even the less exceptionally talented ones can at the very least perform a service to the senior squad - even if just in the short term - and be valued enough to be worth something to another club if deemed ultimately not good enough for us.

Arsenal and ManU have been pretty good at this over the years. But this will break down (as we have seen and Spursidol has alluded to) and go to waste if we fill the first team squad with ****s like Dempsey. Talentless, limited, slow witted, ordinary footballers.

As strongly as you feel about us being bought by a sugar daddy, I feel about wasting resources - and mainly the years of coaching a young footballer - for players like Dempsey to take their squad slot. It completely kills the whole point of of an academy.

Although I hit agree, I don't agree with the last two paragraphs.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don't trust them simply because they're 'experts', as we know from every field of human endeavour it's often the 'experts' who are the problem! I mean I trust AVB and his team to be able to decide whether a youth prospect should be getting PL playing time ahead of their established players. I also mean, based on the track record of the club to date in getting players through the Academy and into PL teams, many into our own team, and the evidence of our current crop of academy players, that they know how to develop players, that they're well aware of the issues (indeed one of the reasons Harry was replaced, imo, was that he wasn't strong in this regard), and they have a strategy in place which takes account of your worries. So, I reject the assertion, based, as far as I can tell, on little more than reading the tea-leaves, that the club doesn't know what it's doing. Now if you were an insider, or if it was a situation in which far more information was available to us as onlookers, or the club had a track record of failing in this regard, I would have to factor that in, but that isn't the case, so I say what I have said.

But I actually haven't stated that the club are getting everything wrong. In fact, up until Inglethorpe left, I was massively encouraged by what was happening based on what I'd seen and read.

All I'm saying now is "I simply don't know". I've asked as many questions as I can of people that seem to know more than me, but not many people actually get to watch our young teams in full very often and little is known about the coaching methodology of those now in charge.

As I said above, maybe things are all good. My biggest beef is really that we are not using enough of the youngsters enough of the time (and I agree the domestic cups is one area where we should be - I too prioritise Europe over them) in cups and on the bench.

I understand the pressure's on AVB this season, I don't believe he chose Dempsey, but I really do not agree with him or anyone that he offers more as an attacking player than a few that we have spent years teaching and readying for just such an occasion.

 

[Oshi]

But I actually haven't stated that the club are getting everything wrong. In fact, up until Inglethorpe left, I was massively encouraged by what was happening based on what I'd seen and read.

All I'm saying now is "I simply don't know". I've asked as many questions as I can of people that seem to know more than me, but not many people actually get to watch our young teams in full very often and little is known about the coaching methodology of those now in charge.

As I said above, maybe things are all good. My biggest beef is really that we are not using enough of the youngsters enough of the time (and I agree the domestic cups is one area where we should be - I too prioritise Europe over them) in cups and on the bench.

I understand the pressure's on AVB this season, I don't believe he chose Dempsey, but I really do not agree with him or anyone that he offers more as an attacking player than a few that we have spent years teaching and readying for just such an occasion.

Do we not now have a "Transition coach/ Manager" who's responsibility is to ensure that the first team ethos/methods/tactics are mirrored throughout all levels of the club? Can't remember where I read it though.

 

[Spursidol]

Each of the domestic cups have about 5 or 6 games in them to get to the final - so the maximum is about 10 games, and in reality you are not likely to get to both finals every year, so the total number of games will be less than that.

If you are using a couple of the development squad on each game, that's not enough games to spread round the development squad. The only way to use just the domestic cups as a 'training ground' for the development squad is to field a whole team of mainly development squad players (like Arsenal and Man U often used to do in the Carling Cup) or arguibly what 'arry was doing in the group stages of the Europa League. That approach seems to have fallen a little out of favour - possibly because all clubs want to try to win the cups too - although Arsenal first team didn't seem to want to actually do that to judge by the result against Blackburn today..

So if we cannot get the youngsters many games in the domestic cups, the options seem to me to include :

a) Designating one or two places on the bench for the dvelkopment squad - thus reducing it to 5 places on the bench for first team players. The hope is that from time to time AVB will decide that it is a good time to bring on a development squad player in a match

b) Arranging maybe 6 matches a year against Championship (or maybe even one lower PL) club for a Spurs X1 to give youngsters the experience of playing at that level - hopefully this will also be a way to get Championship clubs to take some of our players on loan. IMO this is the closest we can get with current regulation to playing a B side in a lower league as is allowed in Spain and other countries.

c) Individual loans to lower league clubs

d) The u 21 League.

As I've said before, the club has made great strides in recent years to put in place a way to help development squad players get the experience necessary to play for the first team (this season more through using (c) and (d), but more needs to be done to consider how to also give them experience by using (a), (b) or the domestic cups - or indeed any other viable route.

Lots to improve on and we should not be resting on our laurels

 

[Spursidol]

Do we not now have a "Transition coach/ Manager" who's responsibility is to ensure that the first team ethos/methods/tactics are mirrored throughout all levels of the club? Can't remember where I read it though.

Sherwood's original role as 'Technical Co-ordinator' was to ensure that Spurs wre using the same system throughout the club from first team doiwn to u 18's and younger.

That slightly eases the transition of players through to the first team as they know how they should be playing - but does not address the way in which they get the experience to move from development squad tio first team.

 

[Spursidol]

Does anyone have the full line up?

Spurs U18s: Vigouroux, Cambell-Young, Ball, McEneff, Vincent-Young, Lesniak, Winks (Amos, 73), Oduwa (Georgiou, 63), Sonupe (D McQueen, 69), Zapata-Caicedo, Akindayini. Unused subs: Priestley, Bush.

 

[kr1978]

Spurs U18s: Vigouroux, Cambell-Young, Ball, McEneff, Vincent-Young, Lesniak, Winks (Amos, 73), Oduwa (Georgiou, 63), Sonupe (D McQueen, 69), Zapata-Caicedo, Akindayini. Unused subs: Priestley, Bush.

Thanks mate

 

[sloth]

Each of the domestic cups have about 5 or 6 games in them to get to the final - so the maximum is about 10 games, and in reality you are not likely to get to both finals every year, so the total number of games will be less than that.

If you are using a couple of the development squad on each game, that's not enough games to spread round the development squad. The only way to use just the domestic cups as a 'training ground' for the development squad is to field a whole team of mainly development squad players (like Arsenal and Man U often used to do in the Carling Cup) or arguibly what 'arry was doing in the group stages of the Europa League. That approach seems to have fallen a little out of favour - possibly because all clubs want to try to win the cups too - although Arsenal first team didn't seem to want to actually do that to judge by the result against Blackburn today..

So if we cannot get the youngsters many games in the domestic cups, the options seem to me to include :

a) Designating one or two places on the bench for the dvelkopment squad - thus reducing it to 5 places on the bench for first team players. The hope is that from time to time AVB will decide that it is a good time to bring on a development squad player in a match

b) Arranging maybe 6 matches a year against Championship (or maybe even one lower PL) club for a Spurs X1 to give youngsters the experience of playing at that level - hopefully this will also be a way to get Championship clubs to take some of our players on loan. IMO this is the closest we can get with current regulation to playing a B side in a lower league as is allowed in Spain and other countries.

c) Individual loans to lower league clubs

d) The u 21 League.

As I've said before, the club has made great strides in recent years to put in place a way to help development squad players get the experience necessary to play for the first team (this season more through using (c) and (d), but more needs to be done to consider how to also give them experience by using (a), (b) or the domestic cups - or indeed any other viable route.

Lots to improve on and we should not be resting on our laurels

I think that in the PL and CL you should only be playing the team you think is good enough to win, and the players in that team should be good enough to play in that team. If we have Academy players at that level then they should get the opportunities you suggest, and I believe that has happened several times this season. If you look at our current first team, Walker, Caulker, Dawson, Naughton, BAE, Bale, Huddlestone, Livermore, and Lennon all came in as young prospects (some with big reps), and found a way to the first team, some of course have since fallen out of favour, but even so, that's nine first teamers out of squad of regular(ish) first teamers of 20 or so. Not bad, and evidence that we've been doing quite well at this for years now. Add into that mix the current Academy players finding places on the bench and a bit of first team game time, and also all the other players in other PL squads who came through our academy, and I'd say we've done well. Of course we can always improve, and I think the club has shown it realises that with the kinds of actions it's taken in the last few years.

I object to the inference (not by you, but elsewhere in this thread) that the academy players have been left out when they could have played more due to the fact the club is short-sighted, and, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, and with plenty of evidence which supports it, take the view that the reason they haven't had more opportunities in the PL is because they aren't ready yet.

 

[kr1978]

Spurs U18s: Vigouroux, Cambell-Young, Ball, McEneff, Vincent-Young, Lesniak, Winks (Amos, 73), Oduwa (Georgiou, 63), Sonupe (D McQueen, 69), Zapata-Caicedo, Akindayini. Unused subs: Priestley, Bush.

Glad to see Harry winks playing again (came on for a bit last night) . The admittedly few games I've seen with him he has always looked impressive and one of the ones to keep an eye on