Tactically Utterly Inept

Stoof

Stoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooof
Staff
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
29,255
#21
It's a good post there, Spursfect, I'm just never convinced that our worst central midfield pairing (win-to-loss-ratio-wise) is ever going to work.

We have a lot of "1/3 of a midfield 3" midfielders and we persist in trying to get them to be "1/2 of a midfield 2" - except for the odd occasion when one steps up, I don't think we do ourselves any favours.

We looked so much more comfortable at Chelsea with Zokora mopping behind two. I've never been more convinced that this system will work after watching our midfield permanently bypassed last night. For a late ticket as well, I had a great view of the game, right in the Paxton-Shelf corner at the back. Not suggesting "my view was better than yours" more like "my view was better than I thought it was going to be". :lol:
 

Spursfect

Just Score!!!!
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
118
#22
Stoof,

Have to confess more of an armchair fan, so I'm pretty sure your view was better than mine.

I do not disagree with your sentiments at all, I was just tring to give an alternate view. I am not a rose-tinted supporter, but I am a supporter.

We all have differing opinions of who is good/not good enough etc and that is good for discussion. However the one thing we can all agree on is whoever goes out in a Spurs shirt must play with the passion and commitment we, as fans, require allied with their ability. What I saw yesterday was a lack of commitment and fight. There was no will to win allied with very little discipline. We are bottom of the league and surely we are better than that, no matter what team we put out.
 

BringBack_leGin

Audere est facere
Joined
Jul 28, 2004
Messages
19,015
#23
i have a wonderful view. west stand upper tier, block 5 and right on the aise. in line with the halfway line basically. 5 rows down would be perfect but i see everything from where i am. and what do i have a perfect view of exactly? SHIT.

I am not the most depressed I have ever been, that wasn't the worst performance i've ever seen, and it can only get better. But what the hell? The time for excuses is over. Ramos needs to show some bottle, grab the team by its scruff and make sure that the next time they play, they each know exactly what their position is, who they're mean to be covering, what passes they are meant to make etc etc.

I read tonight on Guilleme Balagues website that Capello's england drs reported to Spurs that Bentley is out of shape and heavy. Ok, I'll give Bentley more leway than I have been (I was anti-Bentley before he even signed, though I have tried to support him). Modric has just come from another league and has had a culture shock. Ok, patience with him as well. Bent has been useless but has somehow scored 1 in 2 so I can't really dismiss him. But those are just a few examples of our under performing players.

The first thing that needs to be done is Ramos needs to decide on a core of players who start every game. The goalie is obviously one. Bale is gifted beyond the rest so he is one. Woodgate has to as well. The centre back partner? Who knows... King is unreliable with his fitness though he is the best centre back. Corluka is a good defender and has ability on the ball but lacks much cutting edge with his delivery, so I think he might be more suited to CB than RB. I would not let Dawson near the team. Then for right back, Hutton when fit should probably have a place regardless, but until then I have no qualms with Gunter. Let them play, let them gel. Otherwise we will be hapless for the whole season.

Now midfield. Some want 4, some want 5. Our one decent performance this season was with 5, so I am inclined to go that way. The core should remain the same throughout though. For me it has to be Jenas and Zokora all the way. Some of you might prefer Hudd, but I'm guessing those people didn't watch last night. Then in front of them, given that this is the only time he has actually looked decent for us, play Modric. Give the boy a position where he'll have more space to do things. He's clearly not yet tough enough for central midfield, and putting him on the wing merely weakens the wing.

Now, I would never hesitate to start Dos Santos on the left. He should be guaranteed a spot. I know he is raw, but he seems to be the only one with the inventiveness and confidence to do the unexpected. It helps to have someone like that in what is meant to be an attacking team. On the right, either Lennon or Bentley (when fit). We should never play them both in the same team, they are both RW's and nothing but. Right now I'd go with Lennon but I just don't want to see them polaying on the same pitch. It reduced both their contributions and makes two good players look poor.

Lastly, up front. Bent has two goals, though we all know that the second one was a fluke. He has not the ability to hold the up the ball, he does not move at all when withuot the ball and he is predictable in everything he does. Pavly may be new to the league, but he looks a far more aware and intelligent player.

A simple solution. 11 players, all playing in their positions, with cleary easy to understand roles. Maybe I'm playing too much fantasy football here, but, forgetting the cup game on thurs, this is how I'd fully hope Ramos elects to do things. We can't have a repeat of last nights clueless performances. Until ten games in I try not to judge how a season is going to go. Well if we beat the Poles and get some confidence to go into the league fixtures, up until, and including because it is a derby, the Arsenal game, we could and should expect 13 points minimum, perhaps 14 or 15, which would leave us with 14, 15 or 16 points from the first ten games. Mid table tally, but with good form going into the next ten. If we can end up with that return then I will seal my lips for a while and not comlain. Wigan, Hull, Stoke, Bolton, Portsmouth, Arsenal. Wigan Hull and Bolton all at home. Stoke away. Portsmouth Away should be no less than a point if we're serious about doing anything. And finally, the Arse away.

I have faith that the manager will get it right and at the end of october we'll be satisfied that we're performing well and within touching distance of europe. am i overly optimistic? Probably. Would there be a point in going if I wasn't? No,
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
156
#24
dawson looked like a championship defender last night completely outdone for pace on several occasions, our best players were jenas and giovani they actually looked bothered. i say this all the time but square pegs in round holes doesnt work
bentley is rw play him rw, jenas is a cm and modric is an am gunter should of player rb and corluka cb the back for would of been alot more solid. its all getting a bit frustrating as usual for spurs fans, being the usual laugh of the league, all i could hear last night in the pub were villa and other supporters laughing at the fact we'd spent millions and couldnt get a result against villa at home!
 

WhiteHart4Ever

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
1,426
#25
Man, what a load of cr*p. You've just slashed the manager for selecting anyone at all from the current squad. Who do you want to play with? The injured King alone at the back, Jenas, Gio and - possibly, only possibly - Bentley in midfield and new signing Roman (with 1 f*cking training session with the club under his belt) as the sole striker. In the 5 games in 10 days or whatever ahead of us? Give me a break. During this period, Bent - our top scorer in pre season (and PL), Modric, Hudd, Zokora, Dawson, Corluka etc. must play some part either you like it or not.

Some fans will just be negative anyways, and you seem to dislike pretty much everyone at the club....


(Sorry, I know I'm reading selectively and taking some of your comments out of context. You are much more balanced than it seems in my comment. However, you are one of many who seems to me to just be negative against most things this club does (after a loss), and right now it pisses me off..)
 

WhiteHart4Ever

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
1,426
#26
i have a wonderful view. west stand upper tier, block 5 and right on the aise. in line with the halfway line basically. 5 rows down would be perfect but i see everything from where i am. and what do i have a perfect view of exactly? SHIT.

I am not the most depressed I have ever been, that wasn't the worst performance i've ever seen, and it can only get better. But what the hell? The time for excuses is over. Ramos needs to show some bottle, grab the team by its scruff and make sure that the next time they play, they each know exactly what their position is, who they're mean to be covering, what passes they are meant to make etc etc.

I read tonight on Guilleme Balagues website that Capello's england drs reported to Spurs that Bentley is out of shape and heavy. Ok, I'll give Bentley more leway than I have been (I was anti-Bentley before he even signed, though I have tried to support him). Modric has just come from another league and has had a culture shock. Ok, patience with him as well. Bent has been useless but has somehow scored 1 in 2 so I can't really dismiss him. But those are just a few examples of our under performing players.

The first thing that needs to be done is Ramos needs to decide on a core of players who start every game. The goalie is obviously one. Bale is gifted beyond the rest so he is one. Woodgate has to as well. The centre back partner? Who knows... King is unreliable with his fitness though he is the best centre back. Corluka is a good defender and has ability on the ball but lacks much cutting edge with his delivery, so I think he might be more suited to CB than RB. I would not let Dawson near the team. Then for right back, Hutton when fit should probably have a place regardless, but until then I have no qualms with Gunter. Let them play, let them gel. Otherwise we will be hapless for the whole season.

Now midfield. Some want 4, some want 5. Our one decent performance this season was with 5, so I am inclined to go that way. The core should remain the same throughout though. For me it has to be Jenas and Zokora all the way. Some of you might prefer Hudd, but I'm guessing those people didn't watch last night. Then in front of them, given that this is the only time he has actually looked decent for us, play Modric. Give the boy a position where he'll have more space to do things. He's clearly not yet tough enough for central midfield, and putting him on the wing merely weakens the wing.

Now, I would never hesitate to start Dos Santos on the left. He should be guaranteed a spot. I know he is raw, but he seems to be the only one with the inventiveness and confidence to do the unexpected. It helps to have someone like that in what is meant to be an attacking team. On the right, either Lennon or Bentley (when fit). We should never play them both in the same team, they are both RW's and nothing but. Right now I'd go with Lennon but I just don't want to see them polaying on the same pitch. It reduced both their contributions and makes two good players look poor.

Lastly, up front. Bent has two goals, though we all know that the second one was a fluke. He has not the ability to hold the up the ball, he does not move at all when withuot the ball and he is predictable in everything he does. Pavly may be new to the league, but he looks a far more aware and intelligent player.

A simple solution. 11 players, all playing in their positions, with cleary easy to understand roles. Maybe I'm playing too much fantasy football here, but, forgetting the cup game on thurs, this is how I'd fully hope Ramos elects to do things. We can't have a repeat of last nights clueless performances. Until ten games in I try not to judge how a season is going to go. Well if we beat the Poles and get some confidence to go into the league fixtures, up until, and including because it is a derby, the Arsenal game, we could and should expect 13 points minimum, perhaps 14 or 15, which would leave us with 14, 15 or 16 points from the first ten games. Mid table tally, but with good form going into the next ten. If we can end up with that return then I will seal my lips for a while and not comlain. Wigan, Hull, Stoke, Bolton, Portsmouth, Arsenal. Wigan Hull and Bolton all at home. Stoke away. Portsmouth Away should be no less than a point if we're serious about doing anything. And finally, the Arse away.

I have faith that the manager will get it right and at the end of october we'll be satisfied that we're performing well and within touching distance of europe. am i overly optimistic? Probably. Would there be a point in going if I wasn't? No,
Good, balanced post there, mate, and I agree with most of what you are saying.

However, while I was unable to catch the game vs. Chelsea (wedding, disaster!), we did play a very dysfunctional 4-5-1 formation against Sunderland at home. The one difference, of course, being Bentley in the middle, and not Modric. I'm still not entirely convinced that neither Bent nor Roman fits the bill of a lonely striker. I do, though, like the thought of two out of GDS, Lennon and Campbell using their pace playing off them.

IF we go for a 4-4-2 it has to be Bentley on the right for me.
 

Woody10

Reality is only an illusion that occurs due to a l
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
405
#27
I honestly believe the reason for our awful defending and lack of play up front is our central midfield!!

We all talk about the top 4 and how we want to break into it, Man u - Carrick - Chelsea - Lampard and Essien - Arse - Fatbigass - Liverpool - Gerrard and Mascarano!

Spurs - Zokora or Huddlestone?!?!?!?!

I like Jenas think he works his socks off and does get box to box! But the other two are not the standard we need! Im not counting Modric cuz not only is he new but is an out and out attacking midfielder! Should be used like Croatia use him!!

We defo need to get zokora and hudd out and start spending the ridiculous money we do spend on some quality central midfielders!! All good teams and i mean ALL good teams have a strong backbone to there side! we do not!
Compare!! Gomes - Woodgate - Zokora - Pav

Sar - Rio - Carrick - Berbatov

Cech - Terry - Essien - Drogba

Almunia - Gallas - Fatbigass - Adabeyor

Think you'll agree the one that lets us down is the 3rd one!! Good keeper, good defenders(when fit) good striker(hopefully) but nothing strong in the middle!!

Strong, tough, box to box midfielders, not headless Zokora and cant move hudd!!
We need to dominate teams and the only way to do that is with the midfield!!
 

jenko

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2004
Messages
4,641
#28
My team for Krakow and wigan for that matter :-

Gomes
Gunter Woody King/Corluka Ekotto
Bently Jenas Zoko Bale
Modric
Bent

Subs :- Corluka, Hudd, Pav, Cesar, Lennon, O'hara, Daws
 

gloryglory

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
1,533
#29
I agree with lots of people that this squad isn't suited to 4-4-2. Modric will most likely only help us as part of a central midfield three, and Jenas is essential too, but a defensive midfielder is needed as well, so Zokora has to play because he's now, shockingly, the only one we've got. Meanwhile, there's no reason to play two strikers together and have none on the bench - the extra man in midfield would be far more useful against teams who usually, frankly, have better midfielders than us.

As for the wide players - I don't agree that Bentley is only a right midfielder. I've seen him play brilliantly on the left and as a support striker. I may be the polar opposite of BBlG, but I've always hugely rated Bentley - I remember watching him for the U21s years ago and not seeing why he wasn't rated in the same class as Rooney. He can pass, cross and shoot with both feet, he can beat a man, and he's unpredictable. I'm happy to accommodate him on the left and Lennon on the right, though I'd rather drop Lennon and start Bentley and GDS on Thursday.

I'm tired of Lennon's lack of end product. I don't know what game others were watching when they said Lennon was our best player on Monday, but he didn't make a pass or cross that counted all day long. Sick of it. If Ramos is the coach he's meant to be, let's see Lennon rest a while and come back as a useful player.
 

Sputic

Active Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2005
Messages
541
#30
I'm sure Dos Santos mostly played on the right of a front three for Barcelona, and not as a left midfielder. So why is this all of a sudden his 'natural' position? Because he is left-footed? Many wingers/fullbacks were more at home playing on the left with a right foot or on the right with a left foot than vice versa. and indeed I think in the long term Lennon may fall into that category too (not Bentley though).

I don't think Ramos got it right on Monday and indeed I think he's got it wrong more often than right since he arrived. But some of the comments on here are so over-simplified it's untrue.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
978
#31
I'm sure Dos Santos mostly played on the right of a front three for Barcelona, and not as a left midfielder. So why is this all of a sudden his 'natural' position? Because he is left-footed?
You're right that he did play mostly on the right (or in the centre behind the strikers) at barca but this was because he was worthy of a place in the side, couldn't dislodge any of Messi, Henry, Ronaldinho but could compete with Borjan on the right. However, his natural position is as left winger or behind the strikers. He even admits it himself.
 

BringBack_leGin

Audere est facere
Joined
Jul 28, 2004
Messages
19,015
#32
GDS played for Barca mainly when Messi was injured, hence he played mainly on the right for them in Messi's position, because Rijkaard likes to have players playing wide on their wrong foot so that they could cut in and play through balls to oncoming midfielders and fast forwards. But At his best, giovani was a left winger at barca's youth level and a striker at mexico's youth level. That is where he mesmerised most.

In fact, his best ever game for Barca was as a central midfielder in a 433, playing the deco role in his last game, from which he scored a hatrick.
 
Joined
May 5, 2004
Messages
19,320
#33
Can everyone on this post please get over the obsession with playing a left footed player on the left wing? As long as the player has an overlapping fullback, then its not always neccessary to have an out an out winger.

Just some of a long list of players who play/played on a flank on which their strongest foot mean't cutting inside:
Ashley Young
Leo Messi
Ronaldinho
Robert Pires
Marc Overmars
Joe Cole

And there are many more. Gio doesn't want to play on the left, his game is not based upon getting down the wing and getting in crosses, it is cutting inside, playing one-twos, or beating a man and driving into the box.

I suspect whole point of Modric, Bentley, Lennon, whoever on the left, is tucking inside and creating space for Bale to overlap and unleash his attacking qualities. Granted it has not worked well so far, but there have been so many over problems with our line up it has been hard to assess.
 
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