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The Club, and planning for the long term/the future

spurs9

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
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I would love to see the first team being made up of players that have risen from the youth sides. I just think there are so many opportunities for the players to go elsewhere, and the transition from youth to Prem level is incredibly difficult to predict. Look at the likes of Pekhart and Coulibaly - the former did brilliantly in our youth team, the latter arrived as one of the hottest youth properties in football - it's such a difficult thing to consistently produce first team quality players. Certainly keep looking to focus on youth - I just can't see it as being a reliable source of good players.

In terms of style, yes it would be good to have a variety of consistent approaches at all levels. It's why I've said elsewhere that even though I'm not a huge fan of Pochettino, I'd like to see him given a decent amount of time at the club to get his approach across. After AVB I think there has been a lot of repair work needed on the squad, and that can't be resolved in one or even two summer transfer windows.

I do think that Levy's hands are tied in terms of making us genuine challengers, as it seems now more than ever the table is largely dictated by bank balance. However, I fully agree with the sentiments of your posts in that the best possible chance we have is to put a more thorough and thoughtful plan into place....and stick to it for once!
Pekhart was only so good in our academy because of his size, that isn't the case with our youngsters anymore, they are all purely their for their technique and reading of the game. Coulibaly had a good under 17 WC, but never looked that good in our academy.
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
Jul 16, 2004
6,083
6,390
I would love to see the first team being made up of players that have risen from the youth sides. I just think there are so many opportunities for the players to go elsewhere, and the transition from youth to Prem level is incredibly difficult to predict. Look at the likes of Pekhart and Coulibaly - the former did brilliantly in our youth team, the latter arrived as one of the hottest youth properties in football - it's such a difficult thing to consistently produce first team quality players. Certainly keep looking to focus on youth - I just can't see it as being a reliable source of good players.

In terms of style, yes it would be good to have a variety of consistent approaches at all levels. It's why I've said elsewhere that even though I'm not a huge fan of Pochettino, I'd like to see him given a decent amount of time at the club to get his approach across. After AVB I think there has been a lot of repair work needed on the squad, and that can't be resolved in one or even two summer transfer windows.

I do think that Levy's hands are tied in terms of making us genuine challengers, as it seems now more than ever the table is largely dictated by bank balance. However, I fully agree with the sentiments of your posts in that the best possible chance we have is to put a more thorough and thoughtful plan into place....and stick to it for once!

On the flip side, the kids we signed when they were 8-10yrs old, caulker, Townsend, Mason, Kane, did well for us
 

Mullers

Unknown member
Jan 4, 2006
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Levy did re-shape the academy about 10 years ago, when we brought in Arnesen who knew how Academies in the Netherlands were set up, we also brought in Ricardo Moniz, who taught our youth coaches the most up to date technique/skills training around. It takes time for these types of implementation to take into effect and were are now starting to reap the benefits with players like Kane, Bentaleb, Mason, and Pritchard and we have players with even more potential in Onomah, Carter-Vickers and Walker-Peters and we have players younger then them with even more potential in Edwards, Oakley-Booth and Roles.
It remains to be seen whether we are reaping the benefits. Kane, Bentaleb and Mason we seem to have just stumbled into because we don't have much choice to play them, many would argue Benteleb and Mason aren't good enough. We have Ryan Fredricks but we're looking to bring in another right back.
Interesting article from a few years back looking at how many youth team players have been a success.
http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/2013/08/spurs-youth-players-where-are-they-now/
 

Mullers

Unknown member
Jan 4, 2006
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They really don't make that much from the club. I've not looked at the accounts too much but I'd be interested to see what dividend they have been taking out. The only pay off I can see is once the stadium is built given the amount of land they have invested in.
Levy's earning a good couple of million out of it, so not too shabby. I think this is a good project for them, if they had a better project they would have sold a while ago.
 

spurs9

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
11,893
34,371
It remains to be seen whether we are reaping the benefits. Kane, Bentaleb and Mason we seem to have just stumbled into because we don't have much choice to play them, many would argue Benteleb and Mason aren't good enough. We have Ryan Fredricks but we're looking to bring in another right back.
Interesting article from a few years back looking at how many youth team players have been a success.
http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/2013/08/spurs-youth-players-where-are-they-now/
How they got their break into the first team is irrelevant when discussing the academy, as it's just their job to prepare them for first team football, which they have done. If the academy made them good enough, but the 1st team manager didn't play them, that's out of the academies hands.

I'm not sure what your point is with that article but all it tells me is that are academy was poor and is constantly improving, which was my point.
 

Mullers

Unknown member
Jan 4, 2006
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How they got their break into the first team is irrelevant when discussing the academy, as it's just their job to prepare them for first team football, which they have done. If the academy made them good enough, but the 1st team manager didn't play them, that's out of the academies hands.

I'm not sure what your point is with that article but all it tells me is that are academy was poor and is constantly improving, which was my point.
It's entirely relevant, if you're looking to make the academy the foundation of success you must have a philosophy that is based on giving youth a chance and be patient. Otherwise the academy is waste of time. That means hiring a coach who will do that, that should be made clear during the interview process.

My point is that the academy hasn't produced that much and is still not producing currently that much. There is potential there but it remains to be seen whether that potential is going to be realised.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
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20,779
It's entirely relevant, if you're looking to make the academy the foundation of success you must have a philosophy that is based on giving youth a chance and be patient. Otherwise the academy is waste of time. That means hiring a coach who will do that, that should be made clear during the interview process.

My point is that the academy hasn't produced that much and is still not producing currently that much. There is potential there but it remains to be seen whether that potential is going to be realised.

I disagree entirely with your second paragraph
Over the past few years the Academy has produced a dozen or more players
ready to step up, nine recent products made the pitch against Sydney FC
and Pritchard who was with the England U21 squad.
One or two we may even have sold sold prematurely (Caulker, Livermore )
but at least they more than offset the costs of running the place.
They got their chances mainly by by default through a poor buying policy
and the poor performance of their more experienced comrades.

I agree entirely with your first paragraph. that we need a coach ready to give the Academy priority
which Pochettino has a reputation for doing and shaping its products.
A happy accident? Probably but let's go from there.
Bentaleb or Paulinho? No contest.
Kane or Adebayor / Soldado? Again a no brainer.

Bringing in new managers every couple of years
and having to buy into his philosophy is so disruptive.
Appointing the coach should be decided by how much he buys into this own grown policy
and how he fits into the overall playing strategy already determined through the Academy
Appointing internally makes sense and credit to Sherwood in this respect.

The idea of overseas stars and glamorous managers is an expensive drug
that can be beaten by the Academy cold turkey.
 

Mullers

Unknown member
Jan 4, 2006
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16,413
I disagree entirely with your second paragraph
Over the past few years the Academy has produced a dozen or more players
ready to step up, nine recent products made the pitch against Sydney FC
and Pritchard who was with the England U21 squad.
One or two we may even have sold sold prematurely (Caulker, Livermore )
but at least they more than offset the costs of running the place.
They got their chances mainly by by default through a poor buying policy
and the poor performance of their more experienced comrades.

I agree entirely with your first paragraph. that we need a coach ready to give the Academy priority
which Pochettino has a reputation for doing and shaping its products.
A happy accident? Probably but let's go from there.
Bentaleb or Paulinho? No contest.
Kane or Adebayor / Soldado? Again a no brainer.

Bringing in new managers every couple of years
and having to buy into his philosophy is so disruptive.
Appointing the coach should be decided by how much he buys into this own grown policy
and how he fits into the overall playing strategy already determined through the Academy
Appointing internally makes sense and credit to Sherwood in this respect.

The idea of overseas stars and glamorous managers is an expensive drug
that can be beaten by the Academy cold turkey.
Townsend many people want to see gone, I would give him at least another season, Carroll I like again some people don't think he's good enough he hasn't had a chance to prove himself though. Mason, Bentleb, Kane I've already commented on. All the rest are potential like Marney, Caskey, Jackson, Parrett and many others it's a completely different thing to become a first team regular.

I was thinking Poch might be the visionary we need but those who touted Poch for the job would know about it more than me.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
15,014
20,779
Townsend many people want to see gone, I would give him at least another season, Carroll I like again some people don't think he's good enough he hasn't had a chance to prove himself though. Mason, Bentleb, Kane I've already commented on. All the rest are potential like Marney, Caskey, Jackson, Parrett and many others it's a completely different thing to become a first team regular.

I was thinking Poch might be the visionary we need but those who touted Poch for the job would know about it more than me.

Don't forget Danny Rose who may end up at City for the odd £20 million
to help bolster their non foreign contingent.
We won't have that problem.
I'm not a fan of Townsend to be honest
but he's he's going to make the grade at Premiership level.
Winks and Carroll certainly have the makings. and their are others that show promise
as the recent end of season tour showed
We have nothing to apologise for as far as recent Academy output is concerned
and that's before a rigorous policy which we both suggest has begun.
 

spurs9

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
11,893
34,371
It's entirely relevant, if you're looking to make the academy the foundation of success you must have a philosophy that is based on giving youth a chance and be patient. Otherwise the academy is waste of time. That means hiring a coach who will do that, that should be made clear during the interview process.

My point is that the academy hasn't produced that much and is still not producing currently that much. There is potential there but it remains to be seen whether that potential is going to be realised.
I agree that if you're looking to make the academy the foundation of success, then yes, the route to the 1st team is absolutely part of it, my point was, just because the 1st team coach doesn't have the balls to play them, doesn't mean the academy is a failure. BTW, I believe that is one of the reasons Poch was brought in.

I completely disagree when you sat our academy isn't producing much. We have Kane, Mason, Bentaleb and Rose that are currently 1st 11 starters plus Townsend that is sharing a 1st team spot. We also have Pritchard, Carroll & Fredericks coming back from loan, who could stake a claim for the 1st team squad (and I believe Pritchard and Carroll will), that is 5 players already and possibly could expand to 8 without taking into account players under 20. That has to be up there (if not the) best in the PL.

Look at Southampton, everyone goes on about their academy, yet they have 1 player that has played significant minutes for the first team (Ward-Prowse) plus an additional 2 that have played a bit part (Reed & Taggett). Yes, they sold 3 last season, but that would still have been the same amount started that we had this season and on top of that we have made 16m from academy sales in the last 2 years (more than pay for academy to be run for several years).
 

steve

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2003
3,503
1,767
Obviously the shortest, and simplest answer would have been 'Look for a billionaire'. And that's probably the more likely thing to happen. Wouldn't have made much of a thread though... (I suspect many who did attempt to read the OP would have preferred that answer though!) :D

This is just ideas at how to attempt to bridge the gap in the long term assuming things haven't changed.

Picking out some of those other points, most of them pretty fair, I'd say:

- Of course there is a balancing act to be had, you need a blend of youth/experience. I did mention for this year that Carrick is someone I'd love to have sitting in midfield and offering his calmness and keeping things ticking. The aim for a bigger % of the squad to have come through the ranks is a long term one, I'm not just talking about next year or two. You'd imagine/hope that if we do get to that point where a large majority is homegrown, squad management etc. has ensured that the balance has been struck and we still have say 30 year old Kane's/Bentaleb's/or whoever (could be a signing) that are here to provide experience.

- As far as 'predicting the future' and pondering whether we can compete regularly at the top end, as I said its a long term process. I'm assuming things aren't changing in terms of ownership and merely offering possible solutions to overcome it rather than just accepting our lot. The only way we are getting multiple world class players in our squad any time relatively soon in that case is if they have come through the ranks. If we do that then they could propel us upwards, and then we have more money long term and can hang on to them and add quality then where needed. Remember we also have the new stadium, which is going to put pressure on us whether Levy and co. admit it or not, and so this approach is arguably the right one to ease financial pressures of balancing the team & stadium.

- As for style of play I get what you are saying. I more forsee overall principles of how the team sets up (can be counter attacking, long ball, posession, high pressing etc.) and those shown on a consistent basis. As I said, I'd like to see formational flexibility though and an ability to change approach if required. Obviously there are games where you might want to shut up shop and defend, others where you think you can catch teams out by being a bit more direct. That's where the Head Coach, and where I said I place more importance on them being a tactician, comes into it.

Billionaire or not the club should still have a Swansea type philosophy which will in any circumstance aim to maximize the potential of the squad in terms of league position. Barcelona have it despite the fact they can spunk millions on Neymar, Suarez, Rakatic etc. and they out perform comparable clubs as a result. Despite their billions City and Chelsea have under performed when you consider the amount they've spent and spend and with a proper philosophy both clubs would've achieved more to date.

I agree with the opening post completely and consider it a massive shame that we had the chance to bring in a former Ajax player and current manager, successful as both, used to winning, who is steeped in their philosophy and we didn't take it. But we are moving the right way and whilst the money clubs around us continue with their short term decision making we MUST aim to adopt practices that give us advantages in areas where money alone just isn't enough.
 
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