The Mauricio Pochettino thread

[Bobbins]

When you’re dealing with a squad on its bare bones thanks to a ton of muscular injuries to various players that we’ve been dealing with all season and no reinforcements in the summer thanks to a chairman who is allergic to backing a manager, yeah we do have to make very difficult choices as to where to focus our energy.

The Carabao, league and CL were it until we caught an injury bug at a bad time and ground in the league and losing the Carabao semi. And in reality, what could Poch have done better in the FA with the players we have available? Not much, in all fairness.

None of that has anything to do with what I said.

As usual the point is missed/deliberately twisted.

Look at the egotistical bastards.

 

[wirE]

What a silly thing to say. "Builds egos"..

 

[spursfan77]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...o-backed-chairman-daniel-levy-spurs-continue/

A fair summary. Sounds like Donna wrote it though.

 

[Kiedis]

I reckon his temper got the better of him and the "ego" line was a poor choice of words.

There seem to be a school of thought that if Spurs just won a cup, then we'd move up a bracket. It would get the ball rolling , we'd get a winning mentality and stop being Spursy. Don't know if you have the same expression in England, but over here, we often say about teams like Real Madrid or Barcelona that winning is in "the walls". Meaning that there's a certain culture for winning stuff that excist in some clubs even if the players and managers change.

It is, of course a load of crap. Man City got a winning culture as soon as they started spending obscene amounts of money. It was the same with Chelsea, and Man United after Ferguson was suddenly pretty bereft of winning culture. Which suggest that the walls, even at Old Trafford, are empty, apart from the usual stuff that you find in any sort of wall.

Poch is, of course, not allergic to winning cups. The proof is in the pudding. We fielded strong teams all through the Carabao cup, to the extent that I think he ended up taking a chance on the fitness of certain players at Chelsea.

He's had to explain his view that league success and CL participation will always be more important when trying to evolve as a club so many times that given the circumstances around this season with injuries and then getting pelters from certain sections because he dared resting Eriksen at Palace, he probably lost his temper somewhat.

And predictably, what all the virgins hear, is that no trophies matter. Which is pretty far from the point he was making.

 

[jonnyp]

When you’re dealing with a squad on its bare bones thanks to a ton of muscular injuries to various players that we’ve been dealing with all season and no reinforcements in the summer thanks to a chairman who is allergic to backing a manager, yeah we do have to make very difficult choices as to where to focus our energy.

The Carabao, league and CL were it until we caught an injury bug at a bad time and ground in the league and losing the Carabao semi. And in reality, what could Poch have done better in the FA with the players we have available? Not much, in all fairness.

I love Poch but I don't understand his game plan when he plays Llorente. Surely the only reason to play Llorente is to cross it into the box at every opportunity but it seems like our players have been told not to do that... Also, I do not understand his reluctance to sub until it's too late.

 

[Gb160]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...o-backed-chairman-daniel-levy-spurs-continue/

A fair summary. Sounds like Donna wrote it though.

Just because it isn't negative and going to town on Levy?

 

[T-Love92]

I love Poch but I don't understand his game plan when he plays Llorente. Surely the only reason to play Llorente is to cross it into the box at every opportunity but it seems like our players have been told not to do that... Also, I do not understand his reluctance to sub until it's too late.

Agree ... we played like Kane is up front, but Llorente just trot around and waits till he gets delivery, while Kane is constantly roaming around and picking the ball up in midfield, often starting the attack himself.
Against Crystal Palace we often came through the middle, which made it easy for them to sit back and isolate Llorente.

It's really strange, think Poch learned a lot in regard to changing tactics at HT ... but he often refuse to sub players to make those tactic changes - sometimes his subs really make me angry, but then again - it's not always the solution to bring on an attacker when you are behind, when he sees that our midfield is overrun time and time again...

 

[Dov67]

My take is he would have LOVED to win the FA or Carawhatever Cup, if only to get the monkey off our back.

Circumstances, a freakish injury crisis, the &*@@ing Asian Cup and a rule change conspired to stack the deck against us at a crucial moment in the season.

We've coped with Kane being injured before, we've coped with Sonny being injured and away before, we have not as far as I can recall had Kane, Sonny and Dele all out at the same time.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

I see that those who missed the point when this sport became a business have just begun to realize it isn't the 1990's anymore ...

 

[vegassd]

It didn’t take long for this thread to get back to the same old tired messages.

I don’t have the energy for the debates anymore these days because it’s the same stuff said over and over again - the one underlying point remains, and is consistently ignored by all the “CL is more important” types:

It is possible to both qualify for the CL AND win a domestic cup.

They are not mutually exclusive.

I think this spreads to pretty much everything on the forum at the moment. You're either pro-Levy or anti-Levy and there's nothing in between. You want a trophy or you don't and there's nothing in between. Poch is a genius or is tactically naive and there's nothing in between. And like you say, it rolls into the exact same things being said and all ends up very boring!

To slightly temper what you said, I agree with the not mutually exclusive point but I don't agree with 'consistently ignored by all the “CL is more important” types'. That's the sort of speak that often gets us into the he-said-she-said feedback loop. I think there are plenty of posters who think that CL is more important but that it doesn't mean we should duck out of the cups at the first hurdle - myself included.

What seems to be a problem for some posters is when you try to talk about a cup exit as not being the end of the world you get labelled as unambitious or deluded. Likewise, if you say that a team capable of finishing top 4 is also a team capable of winning a trophy whereas the reverse is not true, you get accused of only wanting to win the Wenger trophy and not being a real fan. It's the same tired messages but they definitely flow both ways.

 

[midoshairband]

nice to see the arrogant little gollum creature from ManYoo has gone in hard on Poch.

hopefully he can convince his board and all the fans he is their right choice.

 

[Primativ]

@Primativ

I take it the doh rating is in relation for my ratings I gave you, because dohing something that's fact doesn't sound right to me

I can't be bothered to go into it now, but it seems you have an excuse ready for why we lose every big cup game under Poch. At the end of the day we lost them, and we continue to lose them. On that front there has been no improvement in 5 years. It's a big negative part of his reign so far, he needs to just win 1 cup at least, just to show he can actually win something.

 

[alfie103]

nice to see the arrogant little gollum creature from ManYoo has gone in hard on Poch.

hopefully he can convince his board and all the fans he is their right choice.

What did he say?

 

[SpartanSpur]

I think this spreads to pretty much everything on the forum at the moment. You're either pro-Levy or anti-Levy and there's nothing in between. You want a trophy or you don't and there's nothing in between. Poch is a genius or is tactically naive and there's nothing in between. And like you say, it rolls into the exact same things being said and all ends up very boring!

To slightly temper what you said, I agree with the not mutually exclusive point but I don't agree with 'consistently ignored by all the “CL is more important” types'. That's the sort of speak that often gets us into the he-said-she-said feedback loop. I think there are plenty of posters who think that CL is more important but that it doesn't mean we should duck out of the cups at the first hurdle - myself included.

What seems to be a problem for some posters is when you try to talk about a cup exit as not being the end of the world you get labelled as unambitious or deluded. Likewise, if you say that a team capable of finishing top 4 is also a team capable of winning a trophy whereas the reverse is not true, you get accused of only wanting to win the Wenger trophy and not being a real fan. It's the same tired messages but they definitely flow both ways.

I agree. I was gutted on Sunday but I also get where Poch is coming from. No polarisation here. If we're honest he did have his work cut out with these injuries. I think it's understandable that Eriksen, Winks and Toby needed a rest, all must be in the red zone after recent weeks. Rose and Sissoko had knocks on Thursday. Every top 6 team tries to squeak through with rotated teams until the QF/SF phase anyway.

I think the issue with Sunday was that is was compounded by the tight SF loss on Thursday. Had we made that final a lot of people would have wanted the U23s trotted out at Palace!

Football is an emotional thing and it's easy to let the disappointment of a bad defeat skew your views.

 

[Primativ]

Pretty much. Poch answers to his boss, Enic. His job is to achieve Top 4. He talks about trophies to the media but it's all media trained PR (unsurprisingly).

It's grim to lose and to exit domestic cups but in the grand scheme of things - - if we are to move into a new home with the consistency of Champs League football as part of our 'sell' - then, alas, the domestic pots aren't priorities.

It's been quoted on here before but that stat from the Totally Football podcast was something like last year's FA Cup winners: £6 mil, this year's Champs League last 16ners: £60 mil.

If people can't see the (admittedly depressingy) business sense behind this club's decisions regarding its priorities then...?

Whilst I agree the CL is the main aim, by a consequence of us having one of the best sides in the league, and have been for a few years (credit to Poch for that), we should also have been able to win a cup. One year we were the 2nd best side in the league, another the third best. This season so far, third best. We are a side that contains genuine world class players, that isn't all Poch's doing, Eriksen, Kane, Toby etc would be class under any manager. So we should have at least been able to pick up a trophy, literally our team has been too good not to manage it. Yet here we are.

It is possible to think Poch is a very good manager, not want to sack him, but to criticise his inability to get this team over the line to win a cup. Qualifying for top 4 hasn't been so taxing and draining, that we've had to throw the towel in on the cups, it is possible to do both. We've got to semi finals easily enough, we only had to win one or two more games to win a cup.

As I said it hasn't been a lack of effort or talent, it's simply because we have turned up on the big day and been done over tactically and mentally. These are criticisms that are correct to be thrown at Poch.

It's all well and good saying the CL gives the club 60 million and the FA Cup gives you 6 million, but I didn't even know or care about that, aren't we football fans, the problem with the CL is we don't invest money to win it, so it seems all a bit pointless? It's like Levy wants the financial cash cow of the CL, but won't use that money to invest in the team to give us a chance of winning it. I swear its ridiculous when I see Spurs fans readily becoming spokespersons for the Spurs accounts department. It's just a weird outlook to have. Some fans may aswell hold the balance sheet aloft in May. What a joke.

 

[King of Otters]

I reckon his temper got the better of him and the "ego" line was a poor choice of words.

There seem to be a school of thought that if Spurs just won a cup, then we'd move up a bracket. It would get the ball rolling , we'd get a winning mentality and stop being Spursy. Don't know if you have the same expression in England, but over here, we often say about teams like Real Madrid or Barcelona that winning is in "the walls". Meaning that there's a certain culture for winning stuff that excist in some clubs even if the players and managers change.

It is, of course a load of crap. Man City got a winning culture as soon as they started spending obscene amounts of money. It was the same with Chelsea, and Man United after Ferguson was suddenly pretty bereft of winning culture. Which suggest that the walls, even at Old Trafford, are empty, apart from the usual stuff that you find in any sort of wall.

Poch is, of course, not allergic to winning cups. The proof is in the pudding. We fielded strong teams all through the Carabao cup, to the extent that I think he ended up taking a chance on the fitness of certain players at Chelsea.

He's had to explain his view that league success and CL participation will always be more important when trying to evolve as a club so many times that given the circumstances around this season with injuries and then getting pelters from certain sections because he dared resting Eriksen at Palace, he probably lost his temper somewhat.

And predictably, what all the virgins hear, is that no trophies matter. Which is pretty far from the point he was making.

Not entirely true. We've largely been better than Utd post-Fergie but in that period they've won the FA Cup, League Cup and Europa League. I don't need to remind you that that's more than we've won in the entire Premier League era.

On the question of whether trophies help to create a winning mentality, money, as you point out, may be a more significant determining factor in success, but Ferguson himself points to his first trophy with Utd (four years after he arrived) as a pivotal moment in his career

"We will never know how close I was to being sacked, because the decision was never forced on the United board. But without that triumph at Wembley, the crowds would have shrivelled. Disaffection might have swept the club.

"Winning the FA Cup allowed us breathing space and deepened my sense that this was a wonderful club with which to win trophies. To win the FA Cup at Wembley made the good times roll."

I think the longer we go without a trophy, the more of a burden that failure is going to be for the club. So while a trophy won't make us Real Madrid overnight, I think it could have a potentially transformative effect on the mentality and confidence of the team.

 

[Gb160]

It's all well and good saying the CL gives the club 60 million and the FA Cup gives you 6 million, but I didn't even know or care about that, aren't we football fans? I swear its ridiculous when I see Spurs fans readily becoming spokespersons for the Spurs accounts department. It's just a weird outlook to have. Some fans may aswell hold the balance sheet aloft in May. What a joke.

You don't have to be a spokesperson for the accounts department to see 60m per year as a good thing for the club, and therefore in the long term, the fans... you just need to have a brain.

 

[Lighty64]

I can't be bothered to go into it now, but it seems you have an excuse ready for why we lose every big cup game under Poch. At the end of the day we lost them, and we continue to lose them. On that front there has been no improvement in 5 years. It's a big negative part of his reign so far, he needs to just win 1 cup at least, just to show he can actually win something.

It’s not an excuse it’s fact. If we was losing to a lower league team I’d be fuming. We are losing these semis against teams that are better than us, and have stronger finances and clout.

The Palace result was a case of putting out the players we have available and on the day they weren’t good enough. We don’t have the financial clout to complete with those above, yet we are finishing above them.

Just because we have been finishing in the top 4 it doesn’t mean we have the strength and depth to complete in 4 comps, and if you think finishing in 5th and winning a cup will help the players, manager, finances to buy and pay for players to replace, then I’m afraid you need to take a break from football. 5th and a cup won’t help keep anyone and will cost the club millions

 

[Seafordian Spurs]

Whilst I agree the CL is the main aim, by a consequence of us having one of the best sides in the league, and have been for a few years (credit to Poch for that), we should also have been able to win a cup. One year we were the 2nd best side in the league, another the third best. This season so far, third best. We are a side that contains genuine world class players, that isn't all Poch's doing, Eriksen, Kane, Toby etc would be class under any manager. So we should have at least been able to pick up a trophy, literally our team has been too good not to manage it. Yet here we are.

It is possible to think Poch is a very good manager, not want to sack him, but to criticise his inability to get this team over the line to win a cup. Qualifying for top 4 hasn't been so taxing and draining, that we've had to throw the towel in on the cups, it is possible to do both. We've got to semi finals easily enough, we only had to win one or two more games to win a cup.

As I said it hasn't been a lack of effort or talent, it's simply because we have turned up on the big day and been done over tactically and mentally. These are criticisms that are correct to be thrown at Poch.

It's all well and good saying the CL gives the club 60 million and the FA Cup gives you 6 million, but I didn't even know or care about that, aren't we football fans, the problem with the CL is we don't invest money to win it, so it seems all a bit pointless? It's like Levy wants the financial cash cow of the CL, but won't use that money to invest in the team to give us a chance of winning it. I swear its ridiculous when I see Spurs fans readily becoming spokespersons for the Spurs accounts department. It's just a weird outlook to have. Some fans may aswell hold the balance sheet aloft in May. What a joke.

Fine, I see where you're coming from. But the money quote, er, thing is just about highlighting the discrepancy in financial gains between a domestic pot and Champs League qual. And Spurs, especially during this time of major, career defining transition and with less money to throw around as our top six rivals, need the money as well as the perceived prestige of the Champs League.

'top 4 hasn't been so taxing and draining' Really? I think we were on our arse by the end of last season, then the entire squad went to the World Cup and now we're ravaged by injuries. I'd say it has been taxing then and now!

But yes, Poch isn't immune to criticism I'm not some apologist for him. Love to win a cup and gutted we haven't been able to get it over the line for various reasons.

 

[buckley]

if Wigan AND Portsmouth had a run to the last 16 of the champions league the money they would have earned would in all probability meant they would still be in the premiership. Instead a lack of cash meant they had to sell their best players.
The same rule applies to us we need money lots of money to hold on to our star players.we could have won a cup every year for the last four years say 3leage cups and one FA cup it would have earned the club approx 29 million pounds .
The time we reached the quarter final of the champions league under Harry we earned approx 60 million .it does not take a genius to realise that champions league money helps pay top wages and being in the champions league attracts top players .
I vividly remember the double years etc but whether you like it or not if you don't move with the times you will be left behind.
Only a fool would not want to win cups we all do none more so than Poch but if we want to compete at the top you must play with the against the best and the best are mainly in the champions league or trying to get to the champions league.
Cups are great and we would like to win one .Champions league is a must if you want to be considered one of the elite.