Tottenham Takeover Talk

[phil]

I must admit that I am conflicted. As a Spurs fan for over 70 years, I am not keen on the QSI taking 25% but I recognise that to compete for trophies we need more investment.

It all depends on how the investment is made. I would assume that new shares would be issued in return for the investment This would mean the the investment could be used to the benefit of Tottenham Hotspur, to fund transfers and/or reduce debt. If, however, QSI were to purchase existing ENIC shares, there would be no benefit to the club; just to Messrs Levy and Lewis.

I have been a small shareholder since the IPO. I chose to remain a shareholder when it was delisted. At the time the mcap was around £80 million. It seems that the mcap is now estimated at £4 billion. This speaks volumes for ENIC's financial acumen. As the company is unlisted I would have to sell my shares, on AssetMatch, at a major discount to the true value. I would, therefore, prefer a full takeover, which would mean I'd receive c£35,000 rather than £4,300 on AssetMatch. For a (fairly) impoverished pensioner, that would make a big difference to my finances. It would also rid us of Daniel Levy. Even with another £1 billion at his disposal, I doubt he would change his ways.

 

[legion]

It depends. If it means we start actually acting like a big club via the money being used for transfers? Absolutely. Otherwise? No. Especially if we just become a feeder club for PSG.

Imagine if we get oil money but end up being stuck with PSG rejects and ship off all our talent to PSG. Only at Spurs.

 

[VancouverSpurs]

What am I not getting? I literally said it doesn't need to be wanted or liked, but we are getting to a point it is needed. We don't seem to have a queue of investors or will likely see a full sale anytime soon. So for this reason I reaffirm that I feel Spurs need this. The more around us that continue to invest and get investors while we don't won't keep us where near winning and anyone that believes otherwise is being fooled. We already can't win, it is not going to ever be more achievable either if those around us grow.

First, on your point that "we don't seem to have a queue of investors", see the Guardian's article on QSI's interest in us. The last substantive paragraph reads "Although Spurs are QSI’s first priority, it is thought that at least two other consortiums are also interested in acquiring a stake in the club, which has debts of hundreds of millions of pounds after the construction of their new stadium." (link). So I don't think we know what the true state of affairs is behind the scenes, i.e. whether there are other legitimate interested investors. Let's not create false narratives where QSI are our only "saviours" riding in to rescue us from mid-table mediocrity.

Second, question yourself and the narrative you have constructed in your mind as to the fact that it is "needed." Yes, we need to invest. Yes, our rivals are investing (some of them more than us). Yes, we need to improve. Does all of that add up to us "needing" QSI (and QSI alone)? No. It does not. We can find other rich people who are willing to part with their money.

 

[Dave1882]

We literally can’t beat them. If there’s an opportunity for investment, then it’s time to join them

 

[Metalhead]

I must admit that I am conflicted. As a Spurs fan for over 70 years, I am not keen on the QSI taking 25% but I recognise that to compete for trophies we need more investment.

It all depends on how the investment is made. I would assume that new shares would be issued in return for the investment This would mean the the investment could be used to the benefit of Tottenham Hotspur, to fund transfers and/or reduce debt. If, however, QSI were to purchase existing ENIC shares, there would be no benefit to the club; just to Messrs Levy and Lewis.

I have been a small shareholder since the IPO. I chose to remain a shareholder when it was delisted. At the time the mcap was around £80 million. It seems that the mcap is now estimated at £4 billion. This speaks volumes for ENIC's financial acumen. As the company is unlisted I would have to sell my shares, on AssetMatch, at a major discount to the true value. I would, therefore, prefer a full takeover, which would mean I'd receive c£35,000 rather than £4,300 on AssetMatch. For a (fairly) impoverished pensioner, that would make a big difference to my finances. It would also rid us of Daniel Levy. Even with another £1 billion at his disposal, I doubt he would change his ways.

Wow that's a decent return. I wouldn't blame you for finding that kind of return enticing!

 

[DenverSpur]

I disagree with this.

There is a difference between being owned by these types of organisations and having investment from them.

There's also the ENIC thing to consider. ENIC themslves are an investment company - i'm very sure that ENIC already make a chunk of their money from investing in things that we would consider to be unethical and morally dubious. So we're already getting investment that isn't anywhere near transparent and morally clean. This just increases this somewhat.

There's also a point around what Qatar are trying to do right now which gets overlooked a lot. Of course they have terrible human rights records right now. BUT - they are trying to change. Sure some of this is coming in the form of sports washing, but also they are legitamately trying to become more westernised and this will result in better human rights in the country over time. Investing in things outside of Qatar and in things that have oversight around them (like global sports) is actually a way of these regimes having to improve things and to socially progress themselves.

I get that there is controversy here and in an ideal world we would get investment from elsewhere, but in reality the world is pretty fucked right now and from a sports perspective we need investment to remain competitive.

I'm for it overall, as it's definitely a diluted version of what has happened at City, PSG, Newcastle etc...

edit: I would also add - are all those that are outraged by QSI investment to the point of boycoting Spurs, also people who have banned Apple products from their lives? Or are some of you typing these messages from an iphone (that has used child and slave labour to be produce

You’re trying very hard to justify it to yourself. Cindi Lauper was right. Money changes everything.

 

[DenverSpur]

Wish I could 'winner' this multiple times.

My sentiments exactly

 

[DenverSpur]

it's not about £400m this window, it's about being able to to spend £150m-£200m each window.

You don’t need to spend that much EACH window once you’ve built a competitive squad. Probably that much each year. Which given the income streams we now have because of the stadium and the potential extra income stream we could/should have from corporate sponsorship we should be easily able to afford.

 

[tony0379]

 

[Timberwolf]

Also a bit conflicted about this. If it's a 100% takeover by Qataris it's an easy no, but 25% makes me feel slightly less dirty about the whole thing.

Still picked no, though, as I'd rather not get into bed with them at all.

 

[Harrier]

Moaning about Citeh etc. buying the league, and then welcoming similar investment is very hypocritical.

We’re not Gary Neville! ?

 

[fridgemagnet]

The problem I have with the question is it's not really one you or rather I can answer with a straight YES / NO answer.
For starters you need to evaluate all our current sponsors/partners/shareholders and hold their feet to the same flame; am I okay with our club

• Having betting partners as sponsors.
• Energy drink company as sponsors.
• Certain vehicle manufactures as sponsors.
• Go through the list and deep dive all of them.

In answer to the first two NO I'm not, I hate the gambling industry and I hate the sugar water industry. No I'm not some sort of saint or my body is a temple type I just have problems with both industries. (go through certain sponsors that regularly sponsor the WC, Cadbury's, McDonald's, Budweiser, hardly the greatest example for kids IMHO)

Then you look at the other parts of why you have issues with certain owners.

• Are my issues with our current owners football related or people related?
• Is there an element of be careful what you wish for in your answer?
• Could current ownership issues/grievances be resolved if they'd listen?
• Other?

Is it ENIC or is it Joe Lewis or is it Daniel Levy? Is it just being risk adverse or greed? As I've said elsewhere before if I had a magic wand I'd keep DL consigned to operating on anything else just stay the heck away from the football matters.

Long Post (sorry)

Spoiler

Someone else said elsewhere that ENIC have saddled us with debt, yes the stadium needs paying for but if I understood the basic structure of our repayments for what's left is in simple terms roughly one £10-15 million pound players a season for about 12 seasons before adding the increased match day income plus other events back into the club (we've been unlucky in that we've yet to see the results of one complete season of match day revenue actually looks like in the accounting yet)

To put it another way how much has it cost in gardening leave paying off poor managerial hire's and backroom staff plus poor scouting (again goes back to all those calling for Conte's removal are looking through the wrong end of the telescope) someone else could do a rough back of beer mat calculation to that rough cost that could've been better spent elsewhere.

Can I see where ENIC and Joe Lewis' money came from? Seems so; do I have an issue with him making his money from currency trading? Provided it didn't come about through insider dealing then no not really, also AFAIK JL isn't part of a murderous horrible regime only in it to sport wash or to use ownership of a football club as a dick measuring contest amongst his neighbours.

DL is a problem that I wish would leave the football side of things alone, I don't think he's the devil incarnate I don't believe he acts out of malice, if I woke up tomorrow and Levy had been replaced by some Sheik who I can find no background info on (or trusted background on) I'd be lying if I said I'd be thrilled.

If ENIC/DL were more more "open book" / "approachable" / "human" I can accept the odd mistake (we're dealing with humans after all) I can appreciate occasionally not commenting on things or not bragging about things and being private / under the radar but occasionally all that does is make you appear cold and not liked, that at least two manager publicly said they would not work under Levy isn't a great look.

As I grow increasingly fed up and falling out of love with the modern game the more I'd love it and the greater the achievement it would feel to win in the fiscally doped era without taking to FED's ourselves but sadly I'm also realising that ENIC won't put in the funds then we may well need some FED's ourselves.

I'm in my early 40's have consciously supported Spurs from about 8 (my dad would say I was born Spurs fan and won't hear otherwise) but in our most competitive spells we have always been missing something (personnel wise)
We've had strike partnerships scoring more than the old red nosed bastards United side but missing a defensive element be that midfield/defender or GK.
We've had brilliant defences and midfields but crap strikers.
We've had fantastic midfields but missing one defender and one striker.
We've had fantastic XI's but missed depth at key moments.
We've had fantastic teams but missed fantastic managers or had mangers who got distracted at key points in the season.
We've had fantastic teams and managers but missed out on luck.

We don't need a lot but it is getting tougher and tougher for ENIC to believe that approach of skimping out and being cheap/risk adverse will still work.
On principal I want nothing to do with oil money but as I say if I had long enough and spare time to deep dive all our current partners I'm certain there's tie ups there I wouldn't like.
If we're just talking naming rights, I can hold my nose and swallow it.
It's all irrelevant though if ENIC DL still operate the same way though and if that's the case I'd rather not have to hold my nose as there's little to no point.

Turkish: [narrating] You can sort me out by showing me out. It's hard enough to make a living in a boxing world, so every now and then you gotta do something that might not agree with your principles. Basically, you have to forget you got any.
^ ?‍?‍?‍ ^

 

[DenverSpur]

I think you're buying into the general media noise and not actually all that aware about the specifics of Qatar, you seem to perhaps be conflating them with KSA somewhat. Their laws are homophobic, but it was only in 2010 that gay marriage became legal in the UK, and right now in the US there is a serious risk that the legal status there could be removed. We're not as far ahead as you think we are on this one, despite clearly being ahead.

Modern day slavery exists everywhere, even in the UK and certainly in the products we use daily in the UK. It is possible to remove these products from our lives, more on this below.

There's a difference between doing a job where you have very little, if any, consumer choice on the products you use, and being a direct consumer yourself. For example Fairphone is a company that produces a perfectly usable and comparable to most iphones, this is an easy step to take to reduce your own contribution to child and slave labour, but I doubt very few, if any, posters on here use one.

Fairphone impact - Good Working Conditions

Have you ever stopped to consider who made your phone? Thousands of people played a role in creating the smartphone you carry with you...

www.fairphone.com

This isn't true, but if it helps you sleep better then keep telling yourself this. It's perfectly possible to make it through a day without using something that was produced unethically, certainly when it comes to personal (non business) products. I didn't say it makes you a hypocrite but this is back to where do you draw a line. On the one hand your unhappy with a regime that uses modern slavery to build football stadiums but on the other hand you fully support (by spending money with them) a company that uses modern and child slavery to build mobile phones.


Point number 1 - Qatar us only 50 years old, so your comment about decades is wrong here. Both this and the following bits of here are starting to looking a little racist in terms of the viewpoint.


Possibly (but very debatable), but if in doing so it does actually change them then that's still a positive right?


It's been feasible since Russia illegally invaded Crimea and yet everyone sat back and ignored it. Likewise when they assassinated their citizens on foreign soil, or state sponsored the interference in other countries elections.

Why can’t you just be honest with yourself and say fuck it I want their money and I don’t care if it’s dirty or not! Your continual rationalization just makes you look guilty of accepting something you know is wrong.
Sorry not having a go at you personally as you are not alone on here.

 

[Messy11]

Soul-less as it is, the club needs a major new injection of capital to progress/ not regress. That's evident to us all from the current activity in the transfer market (both ours and at other clubs), as well as the other actual and rumoured investments in other clubs.

Therefore as long as any new investment is for shares (ie dilution of ENIC/ existing shareholders) and the club gets the cash to be substantially debt free and/or spend on player investment, then I can get on board with that.

If we can find £1bn from another investor that is clean and achieves the same thing, I'm all for that - I'm sure we all are, but absent that, QSI's filthy money is as good as the next filthy state/company and I'd rather it was us than West Ham or another mid/low table club that benefits from the investment, which would potentially otherwise push Spurs down the pecking order.

I accept that this is selling out and potentially unethical. I will hang my head in shame if we win the premiership as a result!

And then I'll go flipping mental!

 

[McFlash]

Why can’t you just be honest with yourself and say fuck it I want their money and I don’t care if it’s dirty or not! Your continual rationalization just makes you look guilty of accepting something you know is wrong.
Sorry not having a go at you personally as you are not alone on here.

Maybe it's because there are some on here who have clambered up onto the moral high ground, happily calling people hypocrites and accusing people of mental gymnastics because they have a different view of the situation?

As with all things, it's a lot more nuanced that just black or white and nobody likes their morality question by a stranger, especially over something as meaningless as football.

There have been some really well thought out and informative posts on here but, there has also been a lot of judgemental bullshit.

It's a complicated situation and I'm still caught between two minds, so I come here for sensible points and debates, not some of the childish shite that is being bandied about.
I want knowledge and understanding of both sides, not name calling and one-upmanship.

 

[Yid121]

On the fence tbh.

Want new owners badly but surely there are wealthy owners with no blood on their hands.

So I'll say no as much as it is tempting to get the cash to really push us on

 

[spursfan77]

Maybe it's because there are some on here who have clambered up onto the moral high ground, happily calling people hypocrites and accusing people of mental gymnastics because the have a different view of the situation?

As with all things, it's a lot more nuanced that just black or white and nobody likes their morality question by a stranger, especially over something as meaningless as football.

There have been some really well thought out and informative posts on here but, there has also been a lot of judgemental bullshit.

It's a complicated situation and I'm still caught between two minds, so I come here for sensible points and debates, not some of the childish shite that is being bandied about.
I want knowledge and understanding of both sides, not name calling and one-upmanship.

Welcome to SC!

 

[HotspurResi]

Yes Will make the Mbappe deal a lot easier in the long run ?

 

[Dave1882]

I’ve been going with my old man, probably 600 or so games since early 90s. Been up and down the country and all over Europe, it’s cost us thousands and huge amounts of time away from our families. All I have to show for it is 2 league cups. He’s not getting any younger, we’ve been so close a couple of times. I want to see some real success with him whilst we are both still able to go together

 

[McFlash]

Welcome to SC!

You'd think I'd be used to it by now.