We need to talk about the Y word
- Thread starter absolute bobbins
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marmite79
Active Member
- Nov 10, 2012
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Exactly. This is what is not understood widely. We dont chant Yiddo as an offensive term. It is chanted inclusively, to help the Jewish community feel welcome at White Hart Lane, even while West Ham fans are hissing at them, we wont allow them to be driven away.
SpurSince57
Well-Known Member
- Jan 20, 2006
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I wouldn't be surprised, but I haven't been in a school playground in a long, long while.
No shit, Sherlock! Are you saying this makes it OK? Or that the context in which language is used is important? If the latter, if I make the statement that Jew bankers are screwing the world, I get banned from SC, probably permanently. You'd be leading the chorus of disapproval. If, on the other hand, I say bankers are screwing over the world, the overwhelming majority of SC agrees with me and I don't get banned. So, yes, of course it's a matter of context, and 'Jew' of itself can be as loaded as 'Yid'. I've noticed that novels set in Nazi Germany and Europe often have the bad guys saying 'Yid', but of course they wouldn't have in reality; they'd have said, 'Jud', which is just a difference of a vowel sound. One of the most anti-semitic films ever made, based on an equally anti-semitic novel, is Jud Süss—Jew Suss. The use of 'Jew' there is clearly pejorative. Obviously, 'Yid' comes from 'Jud', which itself derives ultimately from Judah, or Yehuda, son of Jacob. I believe (and I'm open to correction) that the correct pronunciation, the one that Jews use, is 'Yed', so if we changed from 'Yid' to 'Yed' we'd presumably be OK. We'd probably be offending someone, though.
Football chants, as several people have tried to inform you without obvious success, are offensive almost by definition. 'Yid' is not intended to be offensive, quite the opposite.
MattyP
Advises to have a beer & sleep with prostitutes
- May 14, 2007
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Jim, their stance has always been the same and they have made statements recently. What are they supposed to / expected to do now?
marmite79
Active Member
- Nov 10, 2012
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We can't expect the club to come out and corporately encourage us to chant yid army. They have sponsors ect to think about. But they have not actively discouraged it, they have said we should be mindful of what the Met have said, which is as far as we can expect them to go in our favour, seeing as nobody even knows if chanting the word is a criminal offence or not yet.
roosh
aka tottenham_til_i_die
- Sep 21, 2006
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Gonna read back thru the thread - from where I left off- but I'm gonna assume that (editing might be an issue btw, bcos I'm on an older version smartphone) everyone would like to be able to continue singing "Yid Army", etc. (Bcos we don't sing it to cause offence to anyone, we sing it to refer to tottenham, the players and, moreso, the fans.
I'm from Ireland; born and raised in the catholic tradition, but now feel that Buddhism is closer to the truth than any religion.
I'm a Yid! (If I might be so presumtuous to hope that fellow tottenham fans would bestow such a term on me) and I use the term to refer to the players and supporters of tottenham hotspur.If I were to meet someone, on the street, who adorned themselves in, what I believed to be, clothing that might be considered to be an indication of faith in a certain Abrahamic religion, then I wouldn't use the Y-word to refer to them; if I met the same person in the home supporters section at white hart lane, I would probably call him/her a "Yiddo", not a racial or anti-semitic slur, but to acknowledge that it could be taken as such and show that I don't use it in such a manner; I use it to refer to any supporter of THFC, be they asian, Jewish, hispanic, native american, inuit, aborigine (sp.), of african ancestory, irish, english, scottish, welsh, afrikaans, or fucking martian
I'm from Ireland; born and raised in the catholic tradition, but now feel that Buddhism is closer to the truth than any religion.
I'm a Yid! (If I might be so presumtuous to hope that fellow tottenham fans would bestow such a term on me) and I use the term to refer to the players and supporters of tottenham hotspur.If I were to meet someone, on the street, who adorned themselves in, what I believed to be, clothing that might be considered to be an indication of faith in a certain Abrahamic religion, then I wouldn't use the Y-word to refer to them; if I met the same person in the home supporters section at white hart lane, I would probably call him/her a "Yiddo", not a racial or anti-semitic slur, but to acknowledge that it could be taken as such and show that I don't use it in such a manner; I use it to refer to any supporter of THFC, be they asian, Jewish, hispanic, native american, inuit, aborigine (sp.), of african ancestory, irish, english, scottish, welsh, afrikaans, or fucking martian
If the Old Bill try to arrest and prosecute tens of thousands of Spurs fans for singing "yid", they will become a laughing stock and they will rightly be condemned from all quarters (though not by the risible Herbert) for wasting public money.
They are subject to swingeing cuts to their budget. They will not want to devote endless man hours to this. The only Spurs fans who will be cautioned for singing "yid" or "yiddo" will be those who do so provocatively or out of context. The police are not going to wade into the crowd during a match and pick random Spurs fans out when 20-30,000 of us are singing it.
They are subject to swingeing cuts to their budget. They will not want to devote endless man hours to this. The only Spurs fans who will be cautioned for singing "yid" or "yiddo" will be those who do so provocatively or out of context. The police are not going to wade into the crowd during a match and pick random Spurs fans out when 20-30,000 of us are singing it.
nightgoat
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- Sep 12, 2005
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Wasn't that exactly what Hampshire Police did at Portsmouth a few years back? Picked a handful out of many singing that Campbell song?
Much smaller proportion would have been singing that song.
It was also an intentionally offensive song, so they were always more liable to act.
nightgoat
Well-Known Member
- Sep 12, 2005
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Both points true, but they still effectively picked a few people out of many to make an example. I'd still find it hard to imagine a pair of coppers wading into the Park Lane lower and haul one or two out of thousands all singing the same thing. I would have thought they'd be more likely to do something outside the ground than in.
TheGreenLily
"I am Shodan"
- Aug 5, 2009
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I have always thought the word yid, when used by us is a chant of anti-racism and to mean Tottenham fan. And when you hear stories of those that were actually in the holocaust at these concentration camps seeing their friends being massacred by the 1000's, chanting yid on the stands and be proud to sing it. I think they are the ones who have the authority to say what is right and what is wrong and if it is good enough for them to be proud to sing it, then it is good enough for all those clueless fuck wits to leave us along and deal with the real issues of racism.
Wellspurs
Well-Known Member
- Mar 9, 2006
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Call David Cameron as your witness?
Coyboy
The Double of 1961 is still The Double
- Dec 3, 2004
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Well as I said the swearing point is quite separate and if you have raised it before, fair enough though slightly naive; if not you are being unnecessarily sanctimonious.
I would say the argument substantially favours the retention of the word because to ban it's total use is disproportionate, logistically impossible, ignorant of the reasons why it is used and is at best using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. I am still at a loss to see how this has suddenly become a problem after 20 plus years.
I find people leaving early more offensive.
Coyboy
The Double of 1961 is still The Double
- Dec 3, 2004
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Interesting the trust says it had got counsel's view. I don't see how use of the word is likely to cause alarm, distress or harassment if it is used positively and inclusively and has been used.
In all the years going t'Lane and away, I've never seen people obviously alarmed, distressed or harrassed by it.
In all the years going t'Lane and away, I've never seen people obviously alarmed, distressed or harrassed by it.
Well Watson, the latter. I also think the chances of someone taking offence at 'Jew army' is much less compared to 'yid army'. It would be interesting to see what arguments, if any against 'Jew army' or even 'Jewish army'. I very much doubt that you would be banned, even temporarily, but then I don't know how much of a naughty boy you've been in the past.
Yes, I get 'Yid' is not intended to be offensive, I've always known that. It doesn't mean I have to agree that the chanting should continue because the fact of the matter is it does offend some people. So chant something else, I don't see a compelling reason why the chanting must continue.
I don't think it's become a problem after 20 years, I think it's been there for a while in the background. It's just that the authorities, i.e the police and the FA, have both been gutless, they are both being squeezed so now they have to take action.
Agreed.
Rocksuperstar
Isn't this fun? Isn't fun the best thing to have?
- Jun 6, 2005
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It astounds me that the FA can't see what will happen with this though - they are dealing with football fans, people who, in my experience, will do anything to put opposition off their stride. Highlighting this single word, one which is used proudly by tens of thousands several times a week, doesn't necessarily turn us into criminals but it does give the petty, pathetic portion of our rivals fans a stick to poke us with. Didn't before, it was just a word that carried some tiny amount of controversy, but not enough to actually raise any eyebrows, but now we've been "told" and you can guaran-damn-tee that there will be random grinning fools in our away section that will instantly claim they are offended to the nearest steward/police-person.
It not only puts us in a position we shouldn't be in, it also puts the club, stewards, police and anyone else under pressure, all because of one hypocritical ex-"comedian" and a group of lawyers specifically formed to cater for a single race (and how that's not racist i have no idea - i am assuming, but i would imagine a white lawyer wouldn't get much help from them - the name sort of gives it away. That's racial discrimination) desire to stir up some trouble.
Obviously we can't prove the reasons for this sudden interest in our business... sorry, i'll put that a different way, this sudden interest in something which is none of their business, but i would suspect it is far more rooted in stifling a club that is succeeding through toil and shrewd leadership, both in and out of the boardroom, for personal or off-pitch professional reasons.
It's a sham, but it's back firing on them - instead of the Police backing them all they will do is continue to say that "if used in a manner which causes others offense etc." knowing that there is virtually no way in Atlantis that it can be proven a person singing about themselves was doing it in a way meant to offend... themselves?
IT'S MENTAL! The whole thing is mental.
Oh, and David - Rob Newman carried you in MWE, Steve Punt & Hugh Dennis both have great careers as comedians on both radio & television... what do you do now? Oh yeah, whine a lot and stick your face into crowds of thousands of contented peoples business.
Milky milky indeed.
It not only puts us in a position we shouldn't be in, it also puts the club, stewards, police and anyone else under pressure, all because of one hypocritical ex-"comedian" and a group of lawyers specifically formed to cater for a single race (and how that's not racist i have no idea - i am assuming, but i would imagine a white lawyer wouldn't get much help from them - the name sort of gives it away. That's racial discrimination) desire to stir up some trouble.
Obviously we can't prove the reasons for this sudden interest in our business... sorry, i'll put that a different way, this sudden interest in something which is none of their business, but i would suspect it is far more rooted in stifling a club that is succeeding through toil and shrewd leadership, both in and out of the boardroom, for personal or off-pitch professional reasons.
It's a sham, but it's back firing on them - instead of the Police backing them all they will do is continue to say that "if used in a manner which causes others offense etc." knowing that there is virtually no way in Atlantis that it can be proven a person singing about themselves was doing it in a way meant to offend... themselves?
IT'S MENTAL! The whole thing is mental.
Oh, and David - Rob Newman carried you in MWE, Steve Punt & Hugh Dennis both have great careers as comedians on both radio & television... what do you do now? Oh yeah, whine a lot and stick your face into crowds of thousands of contented peoples business.
Milky milky indeed.
Rocksuperstar
Isn't this fun? Isn't fun the best thing to have?
- Jun 6, 2005
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Just another random thought - if the FA does push for sanctions against us or the club, what chance would we have reporting Baddiel, the black lawyers bunch and the FA themselves of victimization/harassment? They are pursuing a course that the police have already stated is not a criminal offence, unless used in a specific manner. They've highlighted their concerns and the police have responded. Surely for them to carry on is harassment?
If you accused your neighbour of stealing something of yours and the police turned up, investigated and found no proof whatsoever that it was them - would you be permitted to then complain again? And again? And again, this time to a national paper or radio station, where you continue to state you believe your neighbour to be a thief... The whole thing makes less sense the more i think about it.
If you accused your neighbour of stealing something of yours and the police turned up, investigated and found no proof whatsoever that it was them - would you be permitted to then complain again? And again? And again, this time to a national paper or radio station, where you continue to state you believe your neighbour to be a thief... The whole thing makes less sense the more i think about it.
