We need to talk about the Y word

[MattyP]

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...-at-spurs-matches-says-met-chief-8864131.html

The senior policeman who oversaw Tottenham’s match with West Ham has admitted it will be “difficult” to identify and arrest supporters who use the ‘Y’ word during games.

Only one Spurs fan was arrested at White Hart Lane yesterday, even though many defied a pre-match warning from the Metropolitan Police not to use the ‘Y’ word in their chants during the match.

Chief Superintendent Mick Johnson, who was the match commander, said: “Picking them out is one of the difficulties we face in terms of taking this forward. The chap who was arrested shouted in an officer’s face, so it was fairly easy.

“Another man stood on his own and started singing the ‘Y’ word, so he was approached and warned and took on board what the officer said. The plan was quite straightforward.

“Where we could identify people using the ‘Y’ word, they would be approached by officers who would then give a warning notice explaining why they were asking them to stop.

“There’s a slight difference when we do get opposing fans doing it [using the ‘Y’ word]. They’re doing it in terms of causing offence. That’s probably a far more serious offence in that sense.”

Some Spurs fans, notably members of the Tottenham Hotspur Supporters’ Trust, have mounted strong opposition to the interpretation of the ‘Y’ word taken by the Met and the Football Association.

The Trust argue that Spurs fans’ use of the ‘Y’ word is “a badge of honour and a call to arms” from supporters against anti-Semitic abuse.

Joint-chairman Darren Alexander said: “Over a period of time the nature of words can change and, over the last 30 years, the ‘Y’ word has come to mean a Tottenham fan. We need a definitive answer on whether this word is insulting when it is used in context.”

But Johnson added on BBC Radio Five Live: “There is a balance to be struck around who it is aimed at and who finds it insulting. The ‘Y’ word can be insulting to members of the Jewish community.

“There are other ways to show your support, other songs and banter to engage in, so please do that. We had officers deployed at the entrances to the stadium and had grown-up conversations about what we were asking them to do.

“The vast majority of fans understood what we were trying to achieve and engaged with us.”

 

[UncleBuck]

I don't know about arrest but just using the paddy example, I've seen someone get knocked out because they refered to someone as paddy on the other I've seen some who don't mind. Maybe better not to assume.

That's the problem though isn't it, i've got a mate who refers to himself as paddy because he's a jock and another who calls himself a paki when he's half Indian.......the world is a confusing place at the best of times...

 

[Coyboy]

It can be both positive and negative, that is the problem.

So can any fucking word. There is no problem; two busy bodies with nothing better to do than massage their own public image and reputation advocate double standards while the vast majority of Spurs fans, and I'd say rational football fans Jewish and Gentile see no problem.

 

[SpurSince57]

Chink I believe is refering to the eyes, I don't believe it's refering to greeting. I don't believe it's just short for chinese.


No I never been out for a chinky or been out with someone who has suggested it, depending on who it was and how often it was used I would ignore it if it was a couple of times, but if they kept saying it would just annoy me, even though that I know in many cases there is no harm in it.

I know chinese who get really offended by chink especially those who at school who are in the minority.

A lot of the time people who say just think of chinese as people who do kung fu and that's it, thats their culture, that's all they know, they also mock the language. So I don't think it will be ever something I will comfortable with or endorse, I know too many chinese and non chinese who have been mocked and discriminated against.

If people don't like being called a name, why continue to call them the name?

As for the chinaman reference, admittedly I had to look that up but it's a positive not a negative in cricket.

Can you cite a dictionary reference for this belief?

That's truly remarkable. Truly, truly remarkable.

I trust you don't think I'm one of them.

I don't call individuals 'chink', and haven't for a very long time.

It's neither positive nor negative. It describes a left-armed wrist spinner. Would you address a Chinese man as a Chinaman?

 

[Rocksuperstar]

Baddiel & Cameron both on The Agenda, on ITV in about 5 minutes (10.35pm)

http://www.itv.com/itv/ <-- watch online

Lets see how long i can stomach Baddiel

edit: scratch that, the Yid debate doesn't appear to be on the Agendas agenda, but what's the chances it crops up?

 

[Mullers]

Can you cite a dictionary reference for this belief?

That's truly remarkable. Truly, truly remarkable.

I trust you don't think I'm one of them.

I don't call individuals 'chink', and haven't for a very long time.

I could, but you or anyone else would be able to pick holes in that dictionary. Dictionaries especially those online aren't the be all and end all of everything. That guy in the Ukrap thread that we were arguing with brought out dictionary definitions, Lanh used to bring out the oxford dictionary in arguments, then we'd start arguing about dictionaries.

I don't need a dictionary reference for my belief, I've witnessed enough, talked to enough Chinese and non Chinese about their experiences for me to be convinced that chink is a racial slur term based on the eyes. That is good enough for me.

You are not one of those people I referred to, which is why I am a bit disappointed that you use it. A publication like The Sun I'd expect them to use it.

We could discuss every questionable word, some words are more offensive than others. I just don't think it's right for the majority to say to a ethnic minority, this is a word that we are going use for you, we don't care if you're offended because we don't think it's offensive.

It's neither positive nor negative. It describes a left-armed wrist spinner. Would you address a Chinese man as a Chinaman?

Who was of Chinese origin. Used innocently and without malice I feel. I wouldn't address a Chinese man as Chinaman but I wouldn't necessarily jump down someone's throat for saying it, at the very best the defence they could put up is he's from China and he's a man.

People are brought up in different eras, some people haven't had too much experience ethnic minorities, so when someone like Hansen says coloured I just think it's an old term but he's not a racist guy.

 

[Mullers]

So can any fucking word. There is no problem; two busy bodies with nothing better to do than massage their own public image and reputation advocate double standards while the vast majority of Spurs fans, and I'd say rational football fans Jewish and Gentile see no problem.

Your anger should be directed to the police, that is who I'm angry at. Earlier in this thread when people were saying I will sing what I want etc because the police said it was ok last year.

I still haven't been able to find an official statement online from the police that said it was ok, there is a daily fail article with no quotes. My conspiracy theory is the police spoke off the record to the daily fail because they did not want to deal with it and hoped it would go away but it didn't work.

I think it's disgusting that they have just been chicken shit in not dealing with the whole issue until now, they've been pressurized by people who know the law and I think that is worrying.

What other things are they sitting back on and not dealing with I wonder.

 

[SpurSince57]

I could, but you or anyone else would be able to pick holes in that dictionary. Dictionaries especially those online aren't the be all and end all of everything. That guy in the Ukrap thread that we were arguing with brought out dictionary definitions, Lanh used to bring out the oxford dictionary in arguments, then we'd start arguing about dictionaries.

I don't need a dictionary reference for my belief, I've witnessed enough, talked to enough Chinese and non Chinese about their experiences for me to be convinced that chink is a racial slur term based on the eyes. That is good enough for me.

You are not one of those people I referred to, which is why I am a bit disappointed that you use it. A publication like The Sun I'd expect them to use it.

We could discuss every questionable word, some words are more offensive than others. I just don't think it's right for the majority to say to a ethnic minority, this is a word that we are going use for you, we don't care if you're offended because we don't think it's offensive.

Who was of Chinese origin. Used innocently and without malice I feel. I wouldn't address a Chinese man as Chinaman but I wouldn't necessarily jump down someone's throat for saying it, at the very best the defence they could put up is he's from China and he's a man.

People are brought up in different eras, some people haven't had too much experience ethnic minorities, so when someone like Hansen says coloured I just think it's an old term but he's not a racist guy.

This is a ludicrous excuse.

I'm pretty sure it would be considered as offensive as 'chink'.

'Coloured' is considered highly patronising and offensive in some quarters.

 

[Mullers]

This is a ludicrous excuse.

I'm pretty sure it would be considered as offensive as 'chink'.

And I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be, sure someone can make it very offensive but haven't you been arguing that Chink isn't offensive?

'Coloured' is considered highly patronising and offensive in some quarters.

I know it is, like I said it's a old term.
I'm not going to class Hansen as a racist because he used it are you? He said he was sorry and that's fine in my book, if there is more evidence to expose him as racist, lets hear it.

 

[Coyboy]

Your anger should be directed to the police, that is who I'm angry at. Earlier in this thread when people were saying I will sing what I want etc because the police said it was ok last year.

I still haven't been able to find an official statement online from the police that said it was ok, there is a daily fail article with no quotes. My conspiracy theory is the police spoke off the record to the daily fail because they did not want to deal with it and hoped it would go away but it didn't work.

I think it's disgusting that they have just been chicken shit in not dealing with the whole issue until now, they've been pressurized by people who know the law and I think that is worrying.

What other things are they sitting back on and not dealing with I wonder.

Believe me it is, but your simplistic view that some people find it offensive/ that is has positive and negative connotations ergo don't use it, just brings us back to the position that countless words come under that description: we are getting deep into 1984 territory.

The real problem is that the police said directly to me that effing and blinding by West Ham fans on a crowded train (complemented with the c word, the Hitler song sung implicitly and winding up the rest of the train full of Spurs fans) was fine but that yid was not because it was anti-semitic. Ignoring the Hitler song, ok that's fine. I would argue that it isn't anti-semitic but in any case, as far as I understand the police and FA are trying to warn us that we will be prosecuted for a public order offence. That has nothing to do with anti-semitic or racist language, that is to do with language that is likely to offend, harrass or distress others. I was on my own in a Spurs shirt and felt a little uneasy. How do you think young kids, older people or women would have felt?

Let me ask you this, what would be more likely to have that effect: the behaviour of the West Ham fans described above or hundreds of like minded people chanting the Defoe song or celebrating a goal by chanting "Yiddo yiddo…"; not at a man in a hat and beard, not at an Israeli player and not at Daniel Levy but in blissful celebration and support for the team who we pay £1000s a year to follow. We aren't offending people, and even if we are it would only take a skillful defense lawyer or a judge with common sense to throw such a case out of court by showing that essentially it wouldn't be reasonable to be offended by such benign non violent tribalism.

 

[Mullers]

Believe me it is, but your simplistic view that some people find it offensive/ that is has positive and negative connotations ergo don't use it, just brings us back to the position that countless words come under that description: we are getting deep into 1984 territory.

The real problem is that the police said directly to me that effing and blinding by West Ham fans on a crowded train (complemented with the c word, the Hitler song sung implicitly and winding up the rest of the train full of Spurs fans) was fine but that yid was not because it was anti-semitic. Ignoring the Hitler song, ok that's fine. I would argue that it isn't anti-semitic but in any case, as far as I understand the police and FA are trying to warn us that we will be prosecuted for a public order offence. That has nothing to do with anti-semitic or racist language, that is to do with language that is likely to offend, harrass or distress others. I was on my own in a Spurs shirt and felt a little uneasy. How do you think young kids, older people or women would have felt?

Let me ask you this, what would be more likely to have that effect: the behaviour of the West Ham fans described above or hundreds of like minded people chanting the Defoe song or celebrating a goal by chanting "Yiddo yiddo…"; not at a man in a hat and beard, not at an Israeli player and not at Daniel Levy but in blissful celebration and support for the team who we pay £1000s a year to follow. We aren't offending people, and even if we are it would only take a skillful defense lawyer or a judge with common sense to throw such a case out of court by showing that essentially it wouldn't be reasonable to be offended by such benign non violent tribalism.

The police were obviously wrong it's a shame they couldn't have been recorded or video taped.

 

[E17yid]

One of the head stewards came up to me and a couple of mates before the game and said that he was told by the police to inform his stewards that they should notify him of any spurs fan who said yid and report back to him, the head steward was meant to relay that info to the police.

The head steward said

"I am telling ALL my guys not to tell me anything, it's ridiculous but be careful lads"

No wonder the police found it hard to identify us, the stewards were meant to be assisting them but I know for a fact they were not

 

[riggi]

One of the head stewards came up to me and a couple of mates before the game and said that he was told by the police to inform his stewards that they should notify him of any spurs fan who said yid and report back to him, the head steward was meant to relay that info to the police.

The head steward said

"I am telling ALL my guys not to tell me anything, it's ridiculous but be careful lads"

No wonder the police found it hard to identify us, the stewards were meant to be assisting them but I know for a fact they were not

 

[jurgenthegerman18]

One of the head stewards came up to me and a couple of mates before the game and said that he was told by the police to inform his stewards that they should notify him of any spurs fan who said yid and report back to him, the head steward was meant to relay that info to the police.

The head steward said

"I am telling ALL my guys not to tell me anything, it's ridiculous but be careful lads"

No wonder the police found it hard to identify us, the stewards were meant to be assisting them but I know for a fact they were not

I was in block 32 and the stewards there definitely didn't take that attitude. I saw them warn numerous people and inform the police about 2, the police then came and gave a further warning, but took no further action.

As long as you didn't do any gesticulations while chanting you were ok, it seemed. I joined in but didn't move my arms and tried not to move my lips too much if they were looking at me and I was fine. I'd imagine that scarfs over the lower face will be utilised over the next few months until it settles down.

 

[Coyboy]

The police were obviously wrong it's a shame they couldn't have been recorded or video taped.

Didn't you say earlier that their stance was correct because they viewed yid as a swear word?

In any case, can you answer my original question?

 

[Mullers]

Didn't you say earlier that their stance was correct because they viewed yid as a swear word?

But they ignored west ham fans which is wrong.

In any case, can you answer my original question?

What question?

 

[easley91]

Police not arresting or even cautioning West Ham fans is double standards.

It really feels like we're being singled out here. Wrongly too. Even the PM of this country said so.

 

[riggi]

Even a west ham supporting bloke at work said its wrong.

 

[E17yid]

I was in block 32 and the stewards there definitely didn't take that attitude. I saw them warn numerous people and inform the police about 2, the police then came and gave a further warning, but took no further action.

As long as you didn't do any gesticulations while chanting you were ok, it seemed. I joined in but didn't move my arms and tried not to move my lips too much if they were looking at me and I was fine. I'd imagine that scarfs over the lower face will be utilised over the next few months until it settles down.

Strange.

He was very clear about the fact that the police were out to get us and to be mindful etc but he specifically told me and my mates that he told his guys not to report anything to him. How many he had under him I don't know. Maybe some of them took it upon themselves to not inform him and go straight to the police themselves.

I didn't really notice much during the game but was quite near the front so didn't see anything behind me.

 

[Coyboy]

But they ignored west ham fans which is wrong.


What question?

Well of course they did because as offensive as they were, this sort of thing is common amongst football fans. But if the police and yourself are going to claim that yid used in any context, inside a football ground is offensive and criminal, don't you think they should crack down on all offensive behaviour and prioritise that done in public?

The question at the top of the last para of my post above?