West Ham Olympic Bid Collapses

bigturnip

Tottenham till I die, Stratford over my dead body
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Here's the stuff from the other thread... seems like there's no lying, he isn't wrong and the information is presumably in the public domain...

Note also SS that the TFL press release proclaims the £50m they're stumping up to improve the tube stations is to "support AFC new Emirates stadium." Or have you information which suggests they were doing it anyway and Arsenal just got lucky?
Most of that refers to already planned TfL upgrades, in fact the upgrades TfL were going to do in respect of Arsenal never went ahead, hence why Arsenal received a £7.6m refund for their s106 obligations.
 

bigturnip

Tottenham till I die, Stratford over my dead body
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At the end of the day it doesn't matter what Arsenal did or didn't get, but what Spurs get.
Hopefully the government/council/god can help us out. We still need the compulsory purchase orders to be cleared yet.
Quite right, but it matters whether or not DL has been telling porkies.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
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Most of that refers to already planned TfL upgrades, in fact the upgrades TfL were going to do in respect of Arsenal never went ahead, hence why Arsenal received a £7.6m refund for their s106 obligations.
So are you stating categorically that all this was was going to be done, was decided and started before Arsenal had even mentioned a new stadium?
Did I hear the Mayor of London state categorically that Arsenal had absolutely no public assistance I'd have thought he would have done if it was true.
 

bigturnip

Tottenham till I die, Stratford over my dead body
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So are you stating categorically that all this was was going to be done, was decided and started before Arsenal had even mentioned a new stadium?
Did I hear the Mayor of London state categorically that Arsenal had absolutely no public assistance I'd have thought he would have done if it was true.

To start with if you read the TfL article it includes the sentence "Also included is a contribution towards the £10 million Finsbury Park Interchange which will be completed later this year", which shows that that at least £10m was already being spent before the announcement was made, so that brings us down to £40m straight away.

We know that that not all the work was completed and Arsenal received their £7.6m contribution back because TfL didn't go through with the work outlined in the s106. I agree there was an intention by TfL to offer public finance to Arsenal in terms of infrastructure improvements, but it never happened.

Politicians like announcing things multiple times, most of the projects in the TfL statements had probably been announced before (like the Finsbury Park project) and then just got reannounced as it happened to be one of the stations serving Arsenal.
 

spud

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Politicians like announcing things multiple times, most of the projects in the TfL statements had probably been announced before (like the Finsbury Park project) and then just got reannounced as it happened to be one of the stations serving Arsenal.
If this TFL (or any other) expenditure was 'announced' on numerous occasions by various officials and politicians, it becomes difficult to establish the true facts about the expenditure. Particularly if announcements are made at different stages (planning / commitment / commencement of work etc.) with different emphases. Which in itself conveniently means that the question of whether the Goons received public funding becomes a grey area.

It therefore becomes easy for TFL / Islington Council / whoever to say that they did or did not supply funding and - depending on which announcement is referred to - defend the position in either scenario.

For example, the Leader of Islington Council can write that he has 'checked the position' (whatever that may mean) and report not that no funding was provided, but that no funding was offered. He therefore has a couple of possible get-outs if it is subsequently revealed that funding was supplied, either directly or indirectly.

Don't you just love politics?
 

SpurSince57

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Here's the stuff from the other thread... seems like there's no lying, he isn't wrong and the information is presumably in the public domain...

Note also SS that the TFL press release proclaims the £50m they're stumping up to improve the tube stations is to "support AFC new Emirates stadium." Or have you information which suggests they were doing it anyway and Arsenal just got lucky?
The Northumberland Development Project Team assures us that £60m went into affordable housing. Well, if they say so, it must be true, mustn't it?

What a shame they can't provide any evidence for this statement. In the public domain, you say? Then find it.

It didn't occur to you that there was an ever-so-slight discrepancy between their 'improving transport (£7 million)' and the '£50m' on TfL's puff? Seemingly not. :roll: It's quite amazing, don't you think, that the Northumberland Development Project Team failed to seize on Arsenal's receipt of a £50m bonanza?

As I said, horseshit.

As for the TfL press release, well, I spent several years earning a rather good living writing bollocks like this. Mugs take it at face value. That's the idea.

Here we have TfL jumping on the Immigrants bandwagon. £50m? Fucking ding-dong! That's what Daniel Levy's having to pay to preserve four Georgian and Victorian buildings! What a bargain!

Clearly, the improvements to Finsbury Park have absolutely fuck all to do with the fact that it's one of the most important transport hubs in North London and has been in desperate need of major investment for years. Anyone who's had to use it knows that. So what's the £50m being spent on? According to that load of cock, extra staff on matchdays. What are these guys earning?

TfL want fans to use Finsbury Park and Highbury and Islington; the most convenient stations, Holloway Road and Drayton Park, are ruled out. For why? Because even if Arsenal had stumped up the £7m+ to make them viable, they'd have been a totally uneconomical proposition, rather like Northumberland Park, that's for why.
 

sloth

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The Northumberland Development Project Team assures us that £60m went into affordable housing. Well, if they say so, it must be true, mustn't it?

What a shame they can't provide any evidence for this statement. In the public domain, you say? Then find it.

It didn't occur to you that there was an ever-so-slight discrepancy between their 'improving transport (£7 million)' and the '£50m' on TfL's puff? Seemingly not. :roll: It's quite amazing, don't you think, that the Northumberland Development Project Team failed to seize on Arsenal's receipt of a £50m bonanza?

As I said, horseshit.

As for the TfL press release, well, I spent several years earning a rather good living writing bollocks like this. Mugs take it at face value. That's the idea.

Here we have TfL jumping on the Immigrants bandwagon. £50m? Fucking ding-dong! That's what Daniel Levy's having to pay to preserve four Georgian and Victorian buildings! What a bargain!

Clearly, the improvements to Finsbury Park have absolutely fuck all to do with the fact that it's one of the most important transport hubs in North London and has been in desperate need of major investment for years. Anyone who's had to use it knows that. So what's the £50m being spent on? According to that load of cock, extra staff on matchdays. What are these guys earning?

TfL want fans to use Finsbury Park and Highbury and Islington; the most convenient stations, Holloway Road and Drayton Park, are ruled out. For why? Because even if Arsenal had stumped up the £7m+ to make them viable, they'd have been a totally uneconomical proposition, rather like Northumberland Park, that's for why.
SS there's a statement by a plc, there's no statement of denial by any other organisation. As far as I can tell the only scepticism is coming from you and a couple of others. Against that there seems to be some corroborating evidence from TFL. And you also have to ask what THFC would gain from lying. It's certainly not a public relations exercise, PR has nothing to do with them delaying the NDP. It seems that they believe what they're saying and they're refusing to accept that the public subsidy/support they're getting from Haringey, Boris et al is the limit of what they can offer.

There would be absolutely no point in them lying to those bodies. Levy's objective is to get money from them; lying to them (when they know the truth and the truth is easily known) serves no purpose.

The reason THFC are being so bullish is because they believe their case is the right one, the reason you see no denials (other than one's which don't addres the accusation and are simply aimed at the ignorant public; if the cap fits SS :up:) is that those bodies also understand the argument.
 

SpurSince57

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A statement by a plc with regard to what? Islington's alleged financial assistance for the Immigrants project, for which no-one seems able to find any evidence? Which was denied flat-out in Parliament?

Perhaps you could point out what exactly TfL has spent £50m on that benefits Arsenal? That PR puff isn't terribly specific, is it, other than in its mention of extra Piccadilly Line trains, increased staffing, and a few more signs? 36,000 spectators will use Finsbury Park or Highbury and Islington on matchdays. Sounds a lot, unless you know that's less than half the number that use it every working day. Try finding a single mention of Arsenal in the following:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/static/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/4337.html

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.u...major-raft-improvements-begins-finsbury-park/

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/static/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/3749.html

There is one here:

http://stmarysward.mycouncillor.org.uk/2011/03/28/highbury-islington-station-improvements/

One imagines making it easier for South London-based Gooners to get to the Immigrants was the major reason for these improvements to services.

Yes, it's pretty obvious what Levy's after.
 

sloth

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A statement by a plc with regard to what? Islington's alleged financial assistance for the Immigrants project, for which no-one seems able to find any evidence? Which was denied flat-out in Parliament?

Perhaps you could point out what exactly TfL has spent £50m on that benefits Arsenal? That PR puff isn't terribly specific, is it, other than in its mention of extra Piccadilly Line trains, increased staffing, and a few more signs? 36,000 spectators will use Finsbury Park or Highbury and Islington on matchdays. Sounds a lot, unless you know that's less than half the number that use it every working day. Try finding a single mention of Arsenal in the following:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/static/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/4337.html

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.u...major-raft-improvements-begins-finsbury-park/

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/static/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/3749.html

There is one here:

http://stmarysward.mycouncillor.org.uk/2011/03/28/highbury-islington-station-improvements/

One imagines making it easier for South London-based Gooners to get to the Immigrants was the major reason for these improvements to services.

Yes, it's pretty obvious what Levy's after.
Here is the recent email Achap got from the club:

""There is a difference between public sector support and funding, or 'state aid'. There were elements of infrastructure delivered by the public sector through special partnership that, had they not been done, would have made the stadium undeliverable and unviable.
As part of the Arsenal project, there were a number of regeneration partnerships that were formed between Arsenal and the Housing associations, Arsenal and TFL and the LDA and Islington and The LDA and TFL.
Arsenal were part of a regeneration partnership which helped the Arsenal regeneration scheme become more viable and brought a substantial amount of public money to the wider scheme.
Money went into supporting affordable housing (£60 million) improving access (£5 million ) and improving transport( £7 million).
I hope this helps to answer your query on this matter.
Many thanks again,
The Northumberland Development Project team"


That is clear and unambiguous. According to you they're simply flat out lying. The question is what reason have you to think they're lying?

Have you circumstantial evidence? Can you show how THFC would gain from lying? Are there statements from other organisations denying the above?

Or is it just that it suits you to believe Levy is lying, even if you can't think of a single reason why he would?

But before you answer that, read the statement again and see if you can work out how it might apply to Arsenal in Islington and the TFL refurbishment.

Then ask yourself where all Haringey's regeneration efforts are going and where in partnership with TFL they're making improvements?

In one borough I'll think you'll find a new stadium plan was at the heart of regeneration efforts by a number of bodies and organisations. In another borough a stadium redevelopment plan has been excluded from regeneration plans and indeed, it seems, deliberately so; let THFC develop the north of the Borough, we'll put all the public money into the Hale project
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
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To start with if you read the TfL article it includes the sentence "Also included is a contribution towards the £10 million Finsbury Park Interchange which will be completed later this year", which shows that that at least £10m was already being spent before the announcement was made, so that brings us down to £40m straight away.

We know that that not all the work was completed and Arsenal received their £7.6m contribution back because TfL didn't go through with the work outlined in the s106. I agree there was an intention by TfL to offer public finance to Arsenal in terms of infrastructure improvements, but it never happened.

Politicians like announcing things multiple times, most of the projects in the TfL statements had probably been announced before (like the Finsbury Park project) and then just got reannounced as it happened to be one of the stations serving Arsenal.
When people used words like probably I have to think that is not categorical :).

Still no word on who the "anonymous" complainant was, find that out and the whole thing could blow wide open.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
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It was Newham, they wanted to save £40m.
A fair theory but still only a theory. I still look at who gains from it for my option and shouldn't someone be asking the question? Someone has apparently scuppered the plan for the Olympic Stadium endorsed by the athletics UK, Newham council, West Ham, the Mayor of London and the government of the United Kingdom and none of them seems bothered enough to wonder who it was? How true does that ring in all honesty?
 

SpurSince57

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That is clear and unambiguous. According to you they're simply flat out lying. The question is what reason have you to think they're lying?

Have you circumstantial evidence? Can you show how THFC would gain from lying? Are there statements from other organisations denying the above?

Or is it just that it suits you to believe Levy is lying, even if you can't think of a single reason why he would?

But before you answer that, read the statement again and see if you can work out how it might apply to Arsenal in Islington and the TFL refurbishment.

Then ask yourself where all Haringey's regeneration efforts are going and where in partnership with TFL they're making improvements?

In one borough I'll think you'll find a new stadium plan was at the heart of regeneration efforts by a number of bodies and organisations. In another borough a stadium redevelopment plan has been excluded from regeneration plans and indeed, it seems, deliberately so; let THFC develop the north of the Borough, we'll put all the public money into the Hale project
I'm sure I've read that post of Achap's before…

Why am I disinclined to believe it? Because there is no source for the claim that Islington subbed Arsenal to the tune of £60m for one of their housing projects, that's why. Why not just let Arsenal off their s.106 payments, since those came—just coincidentally, I'm sure—to £60m? And isn't it strange that Levy and the NPDT neglected to mention them? I'm sure it was nothing to do with the fact that Arsenal's obligations cost four times ours.

I'm also surprised to learn that TfL forked out £7m for transport improvements, seeing as they intended to charge Arsenal round about that for the work at Holloway Road and Drayton Park. Another coincidence, perhaps. There's quite a bit about access on the s.106, too.

Of course, all this, as you say, should be in the public domain and there ought to be no problem in finding it—assuming it actually exists, of course.
 

Lilbaz

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Unless people can start people start producing receipts this conversation will go on forever. And it still doesn't change a thing, Levy and Borris/Harringey will come to an agreement or they wont. Whether Arsenal got Tony Blair to build their new stadium will not factor into the argument for 2 simple reasons. 1/ Different economic climate. 2/ Different government.

Can we just please get started on building the stadium, then we can go back to all supporting our team.
 

SpurSince57

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Well, N17 Studios and the ugly 1960s council offices next to it are half-gone, as is the old chapel in Paxton Road. The house that used to be the Co-Op Funeral Directors and the hideous pile on the corner of Paxton are next.
 

Lilbaz

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Well, N17 Studios and the ugly 1960s council offices next to it are half-gone, as is the old chapel in Paxton Road. The house that used to be the Co-Op Funeral Directors and the hideous pile on the corner of Paxton are next.
I realise they have started demolitions but didn't someone mention that this was partly due to the rates?
Just hope that in the next couple of months Levy comes out and tells us, everything is agreed, we've started building and it should be completed by.....
 

L.A. Yiddo

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Would love to some pics of the ongoing demolition if anyone's in the area, they're very quiet about it on the official site!! :razz:
 

Lilbaz

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Would love to see some up to date pics of the training ground (OS are from August). SS did you say that you knew where to get a good view? If you're passing that way any chance you could take a camera?
 

bigturnip

Tottenham till I die, Stratford over my dead body
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Well, N17 Studios and the ugly 1960s council offices next to it are half-gone, as is the old chapel in Paxton Road. The house that used to be the Co-Op Funeral Directors and the hideous pile on the corner of Paxton are next.
It's good to know that the N17 studios and Co-op house are being demolished as those were 2 of the 4 bits of land we didn't own, I guess it's just the sheet metal works and the Jehovas who are holding out now, but as they are right in the middle of the new stadium footprint then they are slightly more essential. At least there is nothing stopping the supermarket going up now, which is going to be phase 1.
 

bigturnip

Tottenham till I die, Stratford over my dead body
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I realise they have started demolitions but didn't someone mention that this was partly due to the rates?
Yep, the council will give you 6 months zero rate on unoccupied buildings, but once the 6 months are up then the full rates kick back in whether they are occupied or not, so knocking the buildings down will greatly reduce the club's rates.
 
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