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What is the Point of Youth?

Krafty

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2004
4,768
2,099
I was very disappointed to see Gunter sold. A young, welsh international, who showed potential (at least to me) when he played, yet off he goes back to the championship. It begs the question – why bother with youth players?

When was the last time a player came through our academy and became a first team regular? Ledley King. Before that? Ian Walker? In the last five years, how many players have come through our youth academy and made a premiership appearance? How ever many you name, it is not comparable to other teams with a youth academy as heavily invested as ours.

Even players that we have brought in, like Gunter, Huddlestone, O’Hara, Bale, Taarabt have struggled to really break into the first team. Lennon is the only exception left at the club, but even he was at the expense of Wayne Routledge’s Spurs career. Young players will only improve with competitive first team football. I can see why Harry has cancelled participation in the reserve league, but we need to change the mentality of our club and our fans if we are ever going to bring through the numerous talented youngsters we buy and develop.

Gunter is a prime example. Hutton is first choice, but has a long time injury. Corluka is brought in; he is very tall, good on the ball and can cover several positions. I can see the value in his purchase. But why the hell are we bringing back Chimbonda? His signing shuts Gunter out from any first team football and his development is hampered. Unless we sell Chimbonda as well as Gunter, and maybe even another right back, what is the point in signing two more young right backs??? This is not even considering the effect it will have on the chances of someone like Adam Smith.

It is not just the right back position. It is hard to keep three established strikers happy, never mind four, so how is an Obika or Mason going to see any games at all? We brought in Bostock and Parratt for several million each, but they struggle to make the bench, and unless we have a few windows of selling more than we buy, its not going to change. They will be sold off, their potential unfulfilled, and we will spend a fortune on a player who cost £2 million 12 months ago.

We campaigned strongly for seven substitutes for league matches because we said we wanted to pick a youngster or two to bring on when the opportunities were available. I can count on one hand the number of times one of these youngsters has been picked on the bench. Selling Zokora was a good move, it moved Huddlestone a step nearer regular football and removes one obstacle for the kids. It also reduces our wage bill and makes money available to strengthen weak areas of the club, but we need to stop buying players that simply clog up the squad, providing cover if 5 or 6 players get injured.

Where is the value in bringing on a Bentley or a Pavlyuchenko or a Hutton for ten minutes at the end of a game you are winning 3-0?

The transfer window certainly doesn’t help. What if? scenarios can cause panic and lead to managers going for another experienced head instead of maybe giving a younger player a couple of games. Harry has sent more players out on loan in the last ten months than anyone else at the club over the last decade combined, but even still more can be done. Everton have led the way in this regard, even if their hand has been forced to a certain extent by injuries.

With Man City splashing the cash, Everton slowly improving and Aston Villa looking strong, it will be harder than ever to qualify for Europe, never mind break the top 4. It could be time to take a step back and take a longer term view.

Maybe we shouldn’t look to buy ‘teenage prodigies’. Our record over the years shows we really struggle to take players with big potential and turn it into ability. Unless we change our strategy, and also have some faith, we will have to spend big money on ready made players for seasons to come.
 

PT

North Stand behind Pat's goal.
Admin
May 21, 2004
25,468
2,408
We've always, without fail, relied on the crutch of our financial ability to buy our squad.

Any kid coming through has to be exceptionally talented, even to the extent where we will buy an exceptionally talented kid with a view to him embellishing the squad, yet that player dropping down the ranks when the next window comes along and our cheque book gets waved about again.

Good article.
 

DCSPUR

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2005
3,918
5,415
i understand the frustration but the youth set up has really improved and Harry did give some of the young uns a chance last year
 

sxboy

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2005
326
269
When youth is brought through you are searching for that very rare talent that continues to improve, with most youth the talent dosnt always make progress and that is why it dosnt happen often.
Combine that with the fact we have had many different people running our youth set up in recent years, at verious levels, as well as us being in a position for the need of a quick fix to get somewhere (top 4?) and that is why not many youth players come through at Spurs.
 

Dave-F

Amused, bemused and confused. Where's the coffee?
Feb 26, 2004
2,709
715
Every player has got to start somewhere. It's only one or two that have need to come through occasionally to make it work.

And in any case, I suspect our policy on the youth front is working fine. If you accept we're the club that doesn't develop our own youth, but briongs in youth players that have done well at another club, then we've been pretty successful.
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,728
5,430
Another very good column, thanks for taking the time.

I agree with the broad sense of your article, and it's a shame to see Gunter go. But Forest are a decent club and hopefully he'll take a chance and prove himself worthy of top flight footy again soon. Our right back situation is a bit strange, and I thought the signing of Hutton was a strange one at the time - we didn't need him then and I'm not so sure that he's the 1st choice now either.

The only slight disagreement I have with your good opinion piece is whether we give youth a chance and whether youthful players are worth a punt by the club. Lennon was a really good youthful signing who was given a chance, and all youth players will only be kept in the side on merit - so the fact that he pushed Routledge aside is a feature rather than a flaw in our youth system and a meritocracy that ensures 1st team action should be applauded. I also agree with the loaning out policy - real cut-and-thrust lower league experience pushes players to prove their ability and for some, provides a much needed grounding in the real world.

I'd also say that Hudd and Bale and the next acid tests for our club. I'll be more inclined to pessimism - that we aren't serious about developing youth - if we can't train these guys mentally and physically to be top 1st team players. These two should be attaining the status of Fabregas & Walcott next season and the one after. If they're not, we're doing something wrong I reckon.
 

mawspurs

Staff
Jun 29, 2003
35,043
17,698
Good post Krafty. I've been getting more and more fed up with the lack of progress young players seem to make after we have snapped them up.

Other clubs seem to be able to bring young players through and get them playing in the PL. Why is it so hard for our club to do that?

We have more resources than many of the clubs who are more successful at doing it than we are. Our scouts are supposedly recommending the cream of young players to the club, our coaches are supposed to be top-level coaches with all the FA badges. So why do we fail to bring more young players through?
 

dickyid

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2004
1,449
142
What's the point of youth? Tottenham Hotspur Football Club is still the local professional football club for the Tottenham area, believe it or not. Don't we have a responsibility to the community for training and developing talented local players so that they may get professional employment in football? That's why clubs bother.

And consider Inglethorpe's only been running youth for 3 years, and a player takes a few years to go through the u16s then the Academy, added to the good showing in youth tournaments, I think our youth are now doing pretty well, and we should have a couple coming through soon..
 

UbeAstard

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2005
3,354
2,413
Other clubs seem to be able to bring young players through and get them playing in the PL. Why is it so hard for our club to do that?

Which clubs, how many players? Or is it just too easy to say that?
 

spurs_viola

Rui Costa,dreamspurs no10
Mar 10, 2005
2,454
0
I agree that the young talent has largely been denied the chance to develop up to and in the first team squad (let alone the first 11) so far. Last season was a prime example. Yes, the likes of Parrett, Obika, and even Gunter, Gio, Taarabt were given sporadic games in the cups, but that was not followed by more games in the league, even though they have done quite well in most of those games.

So the question becomes valid, what is the aim of youth policy at Spurs?
Why not try and develop the young talents the only way they will really develop - at the high competitive level, and with the sense of progress, not disillusionment at being pushed back down after having a brief chance at the top? Why the manager of a top 4 team like Arsenal can promote several players into the regular 1st team / squad in 2-3 seasons (Fabregas, Denilson, Diaby, Clichy, Walcock, Song, Bendtner, Gibbs, Vela...) and stay in top 4 as well as reach semifinals in Champions League and FA Cup, while the manager of a club like Spurs denies such chances to their talented youngsters?

Gunter, Gio, Huddlestone, O'Hara had more appearances under the brief reign of Ramos than under Harry so far. Is there still a syndrome of a "smaller team manager" who found himself at a bigger club and feels pressed to deliver quicker, so is inclined to steer away from giving a proper chance to (even talented) youngsters in favour of supposedly tried and trusted more experienced players?
 

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2005
3,813
935
I think last year H.R. was "pressed to deliver" 'spurs viola'....that was what he came here for; to keep Spurs in the P.L. I hope this will change next season though, even if some of the youngsters only play Cup matches.
 

dickyid

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2004
1,449
142
JoeT exactly right. I can't remember how many points we had from 8 games when Harry came in, but that's not the sort of time to be risking playing your younger players. The real blame last season has to go to Ramos for not even bothering giving certain young players UEFA squad numbers and seemingly concentrating on that above the premier league.

Spursviola - 'Why the manager of a top 4 team like Arsenal can promote several players into the regular 1st team / squad in 2-3 seasons ' - Arsenal and Man U have one thing we don't - continuity over a long, long period. Same manager, same system. They haven't had a procession of managers each wanting to stamp their own authority on the team by buying in new players.

Black - that comment is a waste of space...
 

striebs

Well-Known Member
Mar 18, 2004
4,504
667
I agree that the young talent has largely been denied the chance to develop up to and in the first team squad (let alone the first 11) so far. Last season was a prime example. Yes, the likes of Parrett, Obika, and even Gunter, Gio, Taarabt were given sporadic games in the cups, but that was not followed by more games in the league, even though they have done quite well in most of those games.

So the question becomes valid, what is the aim of youth policy at Spurs?
Why not try and develop the young talents the only way they will really develop - at the high competitive level, and with the sense of progress, not disillusionment at being pushed back down after having a brief chance at the top? Why the manager of a top 4 team like Arsenal can promote several players into the regular 1st team / squad in 2-3 seasons (Fabregas, Denilson, Diaby, Clichy, Walcock, Song, Bendtner, Gibbs, Vela...) and stay in top 4 as well as reach semifinals in Champions League and FA Cup, while the manager of a club like Spurs denies such chances to their talented youngsters?

Gunter, Gio, Huddlestone, O'Hara had more appearances under the brief reign of Ramos than under Harry so far. Is there still a syndrome of a "smaller team manager" who found himself at a bigger club and feels pressed to deliver quicker, so is inclined to steer away from giving a proper chance to (even talented) youngsters in favour of supposedly tried and trusted more experienced players?

"Giving a chance" smacks of entitlement and I get the impression that some of the fancy Dans brought in (Gio , Taraabt) some how think they are more deserving than the others .

A player has to stake his claim on the training pitch or whilst out on loan and make it impossible for the manager to ignore him .

Real players don't need to be "given" a chance , they make and take their own opportunities .


Bare in mind that the DOF was very much the senior partner in deciding transfers , that the coaches opinion was secondary and that many of these youngsters should never have been brought in .

Now that we've got a proper manager and a very good one at that I hope we will start to see a greater percentage of the youngsters who go through our ranks go on to better things rather than have their career go down the toilet .

Ramos could have used the tail end of the CL season to try out youngsters but by and large didn't . The proper place for youngsters who are not ready for our first team is out on loan .
 

Knarf44

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2008
691
289
I agree with the sentiments of the original post but would lay the blame on the lack of progress of our youngsters squarely on the shoulders of us, the fans. It is us who are continually demanding success and good football and many simply don't have the patience with players who fail to give 100% week after week.

The EPL is a tough league where the margin between success and failure is very fine, young players need to have the confidence and ability to develop in that atmosphere. Some will have, others will end up intimidated by it and will make mistakes, when that happens some fans will immediately get on their back and the insults start. It happens even with experienced pros eg Gilberto so how is a young guy going to feel when everytime he gets the ball or loses it, a section of fans start hurling insults?

I can remember the days at WHL when the likes of McNab, Hoddle, Gibson, Miller, Barmby, Beavon, Bowen, Brooke, Campbell and countless other youngsters came through the reserves and proved themselves in the old Div 1. In McNab's case he was 16, Hoddle and Gibson were both 17. In the latter's case I recall him giving Mick Doyle, an experienced CB of the time a difficult time. McNab made his debut against Chelsea I think and I recall him being scythed down by chopper Harris almost as soon as the game had started but he survived and went on to make regular appearances.

Back in those days though the fans had more patience with the team and there was less overall pressure on Clubs and Managers. So, my message is if you want to see youth being given its chance at Spurs you'll need to accept that the young players will still be on a learning curve and they will make mistakes and bad decisions sometimes that might cost us games - are you prepared for that?
 

gloryglory

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2004
1,537
302
I'm sorry, this article is rubbish. The manager watches them in training, reserve games, friendlies and all sorts to see whether they deserve chances. Sometimes you can afford to err on the side of blooding youngsters, sometimes you get caught up in relegation battles and the risks you want to take are fairly minimal.

Huddlestone has had lots of chances in the first team. Sometimes he's earned a right to a spell in the team, sometimes not. O'Hara and Bale too. Lennon earned his right to play. Gunter didn't so far, and sometimes the manager doesn't fancy a player, so that's that.

The one that really diappoints me is Taarabt, because he looks special - Huddlestone and Bale too to an extent. Gunter might be good one day, he might not, but to give up on a whole strategy because of Gunter makes no sense.
 

gloryglory

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2004
1,537
302
Real players do need to be given a chance though. The only way to learn any job is by doing it, and even the best need to learn.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
15,014
20,779
Interesting column and some thoughtful responses which make for a good read.
A number of points emerge here and I think that this is a crucial question for not just Spurs but for Premiership clubs in general.
To buy in established stars or to build a team with an established manager and to bring through our own players wherever we can.
You can buy success as Chelsea have shown and Man.City will probably do the same.
Do we respect them for it? On the whole no. I don't crave that kind of success and would prefer to support a team of players that I can identify with, not a team of expensively assembled all-stars that happen temporararily to be based at White hart Lane.
But the pressure is on, from Levy to the fans, for 'success' and soon, even at the expense of playing good football and playing the game in the right way.
Do we want to see our players behaving like Chelsea or don't we care any more as long as we are pushing for Champions League.
I admire Luka Modric for his skill and determination but he's not yet a Tottenham player to me. Similarly Berbatov, but was he ever a true Spur?
Clearly there has to be a balance but at the moment the balance at most Premiership clubs is out of control.
This could be modified by the application of stricter fimancial control over clubs spending and by the imposition of 'homegrown' rules. A wage cap might clear out some of the more mercenary foreign players and free up some space.
Now in the opinion of people who's opinion I respect none of our crop of youngsters is ready to step up immediately though some must be very close. Will Harry have the time and space to bring even two or three of them on?
I share the doubts of others on here as to whether this will happen even though Harry has a good reputation for this.That was then and pressure has increased markedly since Harry was at W.Ham, not least from the fans.
Buying them in doesnt always work either. In our own case could any of our promising youngsters have done as badly as Bentley?
Lets give more of them a go and as 'Knarf44' says have some patience. Its not the destination that matters its how enjoyable the journey is.
 

SpursMan

Member
Apr 20, 2004
110
6
im so pissed off with the sale of chris gunter. i believe he is better than both kyle from sheff utd!!!! he can also play across the back four with no difficulty!!!! would anyone like to have a £10 bet with me by next summer chris gunter will have signed for another prem team and will be in the 1st eleven!!!! i really do think its shoking to sell gunter and for less than 2mil aswell
 

alamo

Don't worry be happy
Jun 10, 2004
5,046
7,226
I agree that the young talent has largely been denied the chance to develop up to and in the first team squad (let alone the first 11) so far. Last season was a prime example. Yes, the likes of Parrett, Obika, and even Gunter, Gio, Taarabt were given sporadic games in the cups, but that was not followed by more games in the league, even though they have done quite well in most of those games.

So the question becomes valid, what is the aim of youth policy at Spurs?
Why not try and develop the young talents the only way they will really develop - at the high competitive level, and with the sense of progress, not disillusionment at being pushed back down after having a brief chance at the top? Why the manager of a top 4 team like Arsenal can promote several players into the regular 1st team / squad in 2-3 seasons (Fabregas, Denilson, Diaby, Clichy, Walcock, Song, Bendtner, Gibbs, Vela...) and stay in top 4 as well as reach semifinals in Champions League and FA Cup, while the manager of a club like Spurs denies such chances to their talented youngsters?

Gunter, Gio, Huddlestone, O'Hara had more appearances under the brief reign of Ramos than under Harry so far. Is there still a syndrome of a "smaller team manager" who found himself at a bigger club and feels pressed to deliver quicker, so is inclined to steer away from giving a proper chance to (even talented) youngsters in favour of supposedly tried and trusted more experienced players?

You really do speak continual rubbish don't you. Sorry, I shouldn't be so damning but its just I couldn't disagree more. The simple reason youth hasn't been developed to the degree you so desire is because WE HAVE FULL INTERNATIONALS in each and every position that are more deserving of the first eleven place and as such need to be on the pitch more often than not.

Name me a club that has been successful with a predominantly youth team side (christ, i sound like Alan Hansen :grin:)
 
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