Where are the kids?

[Krafty]

Our season is over, so why are we still playing the same XI? Surely Ramos has seen enough of the same players now, he must know their strengths and weaknesses, and we are not going to learn anymore playing meaningless games where a lot of the players are unwilling to really stretch themselves in fear of getting an injury or because they are tired from a long season.

If we put in a few kids, a few players with a point to prove that havent seen any game time recently (Tainio, Gilberto, Kaboul, Rocha) then at least we will see some real effort and learn something. At the moment we are seeing the same thing we have seen for the last 18 months. Lennon cant cross, berbs gives up when there is little to play for, Zokora goes missing, JJ cant perform at a high level for 90 minutes, the defence is a bit shaky, the midfield doesnt press enough, Hudds is still a little slow and lax, Steed cuts inside a lot etc etc etc.

If we played Taarabt from the start, in the hole, with bent, Tainio, Rose, Kaboul and a few of the first XI then at least we could get excited at the prospect of something new, something different.

Otherwise we are going to see a few draws against teams like us who have little to play for and just dont want to get beat, and a few losses to teams that want it more than us.

 

[Dibby]

The players themselves have their own personal targets to play for. For example, Berbatov may break his own personal record for goals in a season this year.

 

[hughy]

It's starting to annoy me a bit. Our current squad obviously isn't working, and I believe we have enough young talent to experiment with. But yet Ramos insists on playing the same players, in exactly the same positions, eventhough the results aren't coming. Taarabt, Peckhart, Rose, Dervite, among others are all promising players, so why not give them a taste of first-team football?

 

[Tottenham_OZpur]

it's a good question, guess all those people who wanted us to keep the same lineup and not try anything different so we can push up the table have egg on their faces now, we are actually in danger of dropping in the table now, gone backwards in fact

what have we achieved ?

poor results and performances, due in part to a lack of motivation and we have learned hardly anything we already didn't know and worst of all, no experience to any of our youth players when the current situation shows that it is a perfect time to play a couple

a few weeks ago there was a thread about this topic, with mixed opinions, glad I was one of those who didn't want us to do what we are doing now, not that it makes me feel any better we were right

a reason why most of our youth players get too old then let go, most NEVER get given the chance. Most clubs prefer the buy a quick fix method rather than try the kids first, we are one of those, this is why they never make it, what is the point of having youth teams if they are never given a chance ?

I admit I don't know hardly anything about the quality of our youth teams, but are our youth players that bad that they don't deserve a chance even when the situation is perfect :shrug:

next season with it all to play for, we will play our strongest side and rightfully so, but as it stands right now we have an opportunity and we are wasting it, if the kids can't even get a chance when we have nothing to play for then they may aswell just pack their bags and go, in fact why even have a youth setup :roll:

age is no excuse not to play them, players like even our own Lennon played at 16 wasn't it and a debut against us :shrug:

not to mention others, like Rooney, etc

they got given a chance, thats the difference, they only had potential when they made their debut, look at em now

 

[eddiebailey]

I would certainly like to see more of Bent and O'Hara before the season's end, and Huddlestone, Kaboul and Boateng if they are still in the plans for next season. Taarabt too, though I am no fan. Maybe Gunter and Dervite, though the latter is still convalescing. And I would like Ramos to take a look at Tainio to see if he could do a job for us as a squad player next season. Then there is Gilberto, who needs to acclimatise to the EPL, assuming Ramos has not given up on him already.

But I do not see many reserve players pushing for inclusion on merit. It is not like a couple of seasons ago when we had stormed the reserve league, and the likes of Barnard, Yeates, McKenna, Ifil, Lee, Daniels and O'Hara all deserved the chance to show what they could do. That said I would have no objection to the likes of Archibald-Henville, Rose, Livermore or Dawkins getting a few minutes Premiership playing time under their belt.

But we must preserve the skeleton of the team and integrate players into it, rather than making wholesale changes.

For the next game I would like to see something like:

Cerny; Hutton, Kaboul, Woodgate, Gilberto; Lennon, Tainio, O'Hara, Malbranque; Keane, Bent. subs: Forecast, Gunter, Huddlestone, Taarabt, Berbatov.

 

[Mattspur]

I think Ramos still needs to see our strongest line-up play as much as possible so he can see what he needs to do for next season.

Whilst blooding youngsters would probably give us more of a winning mentality in the team for the seasons run-in, when you look at the bigger picture it's far more important to get things right for next season.

 

[Krafty]

The problem is its the same players. If they havent started improving/building up links together they wont in the remaining 4 games.

The only exceptions would be Hutton and Lennon on the right, and Woodgate and Dawson in the middle. Are Jenas and Zokora going to turn into an awesome partnership in the centre of midfield in the last 4 games? No.

Reserve team football is pretty dire. Players with some talent stanbd out, Like Taarabt and Rose. Keeping them there for a couple of seasons will not see them improve. In fact it needed O'Hara to go out on loan a couple of times before he stepped up.

Giving someone like Rose 20 minutes against Wigan or Bolton is going to do a lot more for him than playing Steed. Remember if it wasnt for Routledge getting injured in the first game of the season Lennon would not have got his chance so soon.

I hate to say it but look at the spammers, they are in an almost identical position to us (without european football next season ) and have given three 18yos their debuts

 

[ultimateloner]

How would throwing in a bunch of youngsters, with no proven Prem experience, improve our results?

I hate this kind of 'let's see different players' for a change view. It's absurd. It might satisfy your curiosity but defintely doesn't lead to better results.

If a young player is good enough for a game you think Ramos wouldn't know?

Rant over.

 

[DC_Boy]

Hi Krafty - you might have chosen a better example than West Ham - they're on a disaster run ATM

It's a difficult call - there's a case for youth - but there's also a case for catching west Ham - a case for giving paying punters the best team we can - maybe the youth would perform better - maybe they wouldn't

I wanted Kaboul to play yesterday - but Daws kept his place and had a good game - maybe we would have lost had Kaboul played - how would the punters react to that?

Away to Wigan next week - how will other relgation candidates react if we play Rose & Taarabt for example and lose the game?

As usual managing a team like Spurs isn't easy

 

[talkshowhost86]

Hi Krafty - you might have chosen a better example than West Ham - they're on a disaster run ATM

It's a difficult call - there's a case for youth - but there's also a case for catching west Ham - a case for giving paying punters the best team we can - maybe the youth would perform better - maybe they wouldn't

I wanted Kaboul to play yesterday - but Daws kept his place and had a good game - maybe we would have lost had Kaboul played - how would the punters react to that?

Away to Wigan next week - how will other relgation candidates react if we play Rose & Taarabt for example and lose the game?

As usual managing a team like Spurs isn't easy

Well said. It's not as easy as just chucking in the youngsters and I'm sure most people realise that.

The thing that pissed me off at the moment is paying my money to see the sort of 'effort' that we saw yesterday. Based on yesterday I really think that JJ, Hudd and Zokora should sit out the rest of the season and perhaps Chimbonda aswell. They just didn't look interested and to be honest between them they have contributed practically nothing since the Cup final.

I think there are better options than playing Chimbonda left back anyway but that should definitely be explored for the rest of the season.

As for the midfield I think O'Hara, Boateng and Tainio should be given a chance if the other three aren't even going to bother trying.

And I can't believe I'm saying this but maybe even Taarabt should get a go. He was ridiculous against Newcastle but at least he looked like he wanted to play.

 

[Krafty]

Who cares what other teams think?

Playing youngsters could damage our results? To be honest our results havent exactly been red hot with our strongest line up. We have had 4 prem wins this year, two since the carling cup and one in the last 6, when two fringe players actually scored in O'Hara and Bent.

We can pretty much only move up or down one space. There is nothing on offer for us this season, we should use the last few games to help us out for the future. If we cant give youngsters a game or two now then we never will.

As for paying punters, I was there yesterday and I will be there to see us against Bolton, and after having been there to see us throughout the season I would like to see the youngsters to see what they can offer and see them progress rather than see the same XI have a great half hour before letting in a sloppy goal and just about hanigng on for a point.

I would put money on us dropping points against Bolton if we play the same team as yesterday, and it will be for exactly the same reasons as it was yesterday, against blackburn, birmingham, and so on.

A win against Wigan or Bolton will of course be great, but its not the important thing right now. the important thing is to see improvement, or at the very least potential.

 

[DC_Boy]

TSH - as one of the paying punters your views carry a lot of weight - as to a certain extent JR has to consider the people who are going to these games at the fag end of the season

it's obvious the established first teamers won't be busting a gut - in a sense it's understandable - if not acceptable

I'm all in favour of playing TT - but I'd like to see him play a lot more anyway -

however playing the 'kids', I dunno as I say - I won't be upset if JJ is rested for Taraabt for example - even though I'm a member of the 'JJ fan club'

Same with Zoko - even tho I'm not in his fan club - but it is risky let's be clear about this - Taraabt and O'Hara in for them 2 say - mmm I jes dunno

 

[DC_Boy]

fair comments Krafty and I totally respect your views

- but you skipped the West Ham question - have a look at their punters - they're moaning even more than ours - yoof or no yoof

 

[SpurSince57]

it's a good question, , we are actually in danger of dropping in the table now, gone backwards in fact

what have we achieved ?

poor results and performances, due in part to a lack of motivation and we have learned hardly anything we already didn't know and worst of all, no experience to any of our youth players when the current situation shows that it is a perfect time to play a couple

a few weeks ago there was a thread about this topic, with mixed opinions, glad I was one of those who didn't want us to do what we are doing now, not that it makes me feel any better we were right

a reason why most of our youth players get too old then let go, most NEVER get given the chance. Most clubs prefer the buy a quick fix method rather than try the kids first, we are one of those, this is why they never make it, what is the point of having youth teams if they are never given a chance ?

I admit I don't know hardly anything about the quality of our youth teams, but are our youth players that bad that they don't deserve a chance even when the situation is perfect :shrug:

next season with it all to play for, we will play our strongest side and rightfully so, but as it stands right now we have an opportunity and we are wasting it, if the kids can't even get a chance when we have nothing to play for then they may aswell just pack their bags and go, in fact why even have a youth setup :roll:

age is no excuse not to play them, players like even our own Lennon played at 16 wasn't it and a debut against us :shrug:

not to mention others, like Rooney, etc

they got given a chance, thats the difference, they only had potential when they made their debut, look at em now

How so?

After the CC Final we still had an outside chance of a top six-seven finish if we'd put together as good a run-in as last season's. You aren't going to do that messing around with kids. The fact that many of our senior players haven't delivered is an trrelevance and being wise after the event.

 

[nickspurs]

I think Ramos still needs to see our strongest line-up play as much as possible so he can see what he needs to do for next season.

Whilst blooding youngsters would probably give us more of a winning mentality in the team for the seasons run-in, when you look at the bigger picture it's far more important to get things right for next season.

Having read the thread, this is pretty much where I am. Ramos has X minutes of matchplay to assess and he has to use it as effectively as possible. For me, figuring out which senior players are part of his plans and who should leave is the key equation to solve right now.

The younger players will be here next season to drop in more sparingly when hopefully we have a stronger, more motivated first XI. Throwing them all in now and getting a caning by the oppo and then us is not what their confidence needs. We generally all begrudingly admire Wenger's ways and what he does well is to blood the youth in gradually to avoid killing their confidence and allow them to learn alongside more established pros.

I'd also like a top half finish which the Spammers seem determined to hand us!

 

[Tottenham_OZpur]

How so?

After the CC Final we still had an outside chance of a top six-seven finish if we'd put together as good a run-in as last season's. You aren't going to do that messing around with kids. The fact that many of our senior players haven't delivered is an trrelevance and being wise after the event.

if we lost the CC final I wouldn't have said give a couple kids a go since that would have been a slim chance still for europe still, but since we did, finishing a place or two higher means nothing other than a bit more final position money, what is so great about finish 10th compared to 11th that it means we must not give youth a chance :shrug:

its stupid thinking

when I say give youth players a chance, I mean 2-4 at the most and they don't even have to start, I would settle for them being on the bench and give them 30 minutes or so, that is not asking too much at all

as has been said by Krafty, if they can't get a game now, they never will

if they were to play, the result would be irrelevent to me, while of course I would want us to win, it's learning a few things, giving experience to a few youth players that is the most important thing, far more valuable, you will not see me criticising the result or Ramos if we lost having played a few kids, infact I would be more happy if that happened than say the draw against Boro which was a waste of a game and another poor performance, seems that is more important to some people :roll:

the fact is winning the CC could have had two possible effects on the players, one good one bad

the good is the pressure is now off having qualified for europe ,allowing us to play great football and getting the results, that was what I was looking for after the cup win, really hoped the players would go this way

unfortunately though the players have went the other way, having nothing to play for they have shown a lack of motivation, playing poorly and the results going the same way, it's painful watching us atm, losing heavily to the likes of Birmingham, Newcastle, failing to beat a couple others at home etc

so we have nothing to lose now in playing a few kids and I will not change my mind on that, they can't play any worse than players who's hearts isn't in the game, if we are going to play shite, we may aswell learn something from the game, rather than just play shite with a standard lineup and not a kid to be seen even on the bench :wink:

it is no surprise that our best performance in the league since the CC final was against Chelski, the players had extra motivation in that game and it showed, they just haven't shown the same will to win in the other 'less' important games :wink:

 

[Real_madyidd]

The kids?

They are not in the boot of my car. There is no need for you to look there. I am sure they will be back soon.

 

[si_yidarmy]

if we played youth now, they will know for sure we dont want to play like this next season. Experience is needed for them! START TAARABT every game till the end of season, start huddlestone, start KPB, put kaboul next to woodgate

Get players to get used to each other! NOW IS THE TIME!

 

[SpurSince57]

if we lost the CC final I wouldn't have said give a couple kids a go since that would have been a slim chance still for europe still, but since we did, finishing a place or two higher means nothing other than a bit more final position money, what is so great about finish 10th compared to 11th that it means we must not give youth a chance :shrug:

its stupid thinking

when I say give youth players a chance, I mean 2-4 at the most and they don't even have to start, I would settle for them being on the bench and give them 30 minutes or so, that is not asking too much at all

as has been said by Krafty, if they can't get a game now, they never will

if they were to play, the result would be irrelevent to me, while of course I would want us to win, it's learning a few things, giving experience to a few youth players that is the most important thing, far more valuable, you will not see me criticising the result or Ramos if we lost having played a few kids, infact I would be more happy if that happened than say the draw against Boro which was a waste of a game and another poor performance, seems that is more important to some people :roll:

the fact is winning the CC could have had two possible effects on the players, one good one bad

the good is the pressure is now off having qualified for europe ,allowing us to play great football and getting the results, that was what I was looking for after the cup win, really hoped the players would go this way

unfortunately though the players have went the other way, having nothing to play for they have shown a lack of motivation, playing poorly and the results going the same way, it's painful watching us atm, losing heavily to the likes of Birmingham, Newcastle, failing to beat a couple others at home etc

so we have nothing to lose now in playing a few kids and I will not change my mind on that, they can't play any worse than players who's hearts isn't in the game, if we are going to play shite, we may aswell learn something from the game, rather than just play shite with a standard lineup and not a kid to be seen even on the bench :wink:

it is no surprise that our best performance in the league since the CC final was against Chelski, the players had extra motivation in that game and it showed, they just haven't shown the same will to win in the other 'less' important games :wink:

Which kids? All very well saying this, but as those who actually watch the reserves continually point out, there are very few who are anywhere close to the first team—we don't have a Lennon, let alone a Rooney. We don't even have a Barnard or O'Hara.

Dervitte is still recuperating from a serious injury, and what precisely would be the point of playing Pekhart ahead of a £15m third-choice striker who is desperate for time on the pitch? Taarabt? Do me a favour (and that goes in spades for Prince Bong, who appears to have been consigned to the outer darkness since his pathetic display at Derby). Rose? Well, since we've had at least one suggestion that he can play on the right, that shows the stupefying lack of knowledge some have. We signed him as a LM, although Clive's been trying him at CM recently. Is it that difficult to find the ressies reports here or on Spurs Odyssey? Apparently, yes.

What renders this suggestion even more pointless is that it seems we'll be splurging out God knows how many more millions this summer replacing most of a squad that we were told, barely seven months ago, was fit to challenge for a CL spot. This will, presumably, push most of the kids even further away from a starting spot next season.

Maybe a more pertinent question would be why, knowing they have their White Hart Lane careers to play for, many of our first-teamers haven't delivered. Where are the motivational skills Ramos was supposed to be bringing to the party? Why, despite the new diets, weight loss and improved physical fitness, were so many players looking leggy yesterday?

 

[Marty]

Maybe a more pertinent question would be why, knowing they have their White Hart Lane careers to play for, many of our first-teamers haven't delivered. Where are the motivational skills Ramos was supposed to be bringing to the party? Why, despite the new diets, weight loss and improved physical fitness, were so many players looking leggy yesterday?

This is just my personal theory...

The time Ramos has had with the players has been one long and intense fitness session and so my guess would be that the players are tiring from the (necessary) physical training after several hard months. Yes, they're getting leaner, but also more tired because they're not resting properly.
Come the end of the season they will be knackered, but much thinner and fitter, so that after four weeks of holiday or whatever they get to rest it will be much easier for the coaching staff to bring them to full fitness and prepare them for games. It means the quality might not be tip top for the rest of this season, but it will be much better and help us hopefully hit the ground running next season.



But now, getting back on topic, I agree with the sentiment of your post.