Winning. Does it really matter?

[spursphil]

Very little glory in your eyes and by your definition of glory which is fine, its not an opinion I share personally

Like I said I'd enjoy Spurs success regardless

Its also not as easy to determine who deserve is either, where do you draw the line of what constitutes doing things the right way? I suppose some people could say we bought our success in 1991 by spending big on some of England's best players and not running our club in a sustainable way off the pitch hence us nearly going bust.....did that make the 1991 cup final any less special?

Thats the point, clubs that can't balance the books get into financial trouble, it happened to us and it set us back years.
Chelsea on the other hand posted their best financial accounts last term, they lost £67 million. In fact they have lost so much money since Abramovich turned up its the very reason UEFA are bringing in financial fair play rules. Any other club would have gone bust by now, its a form of cheating, just like a 100 metre runner taking stimulants in the Olympics. Now Many City are at it as well, last year they suffered the highest loses ever recorded by a British football team £120 million!

Clubs must live within their means, they must not be allowed to spend more than they earn, and the governing bodies have a duty to the game to stop clubs using loopholes to get round the rules.

It all depends what kind of game you want football to be, one where our league is more competitive and more clubs have a chance of silverware, or the Greed is good league, much hyped by sky with their grand slam sunday's and billionaire owners making a mockery of the beautiful game.

 

[parklane1]

The day a bored billionaire takes charge of my club will be the day i walk out of the Lane for the last time.

 

[lukespurs7]

Like I said, I don't see the successes of Chelsea and City as cheaply and as irrelevant as many other Spurs fans seem to

I hear comments like "chelsea's success doesn't count because they bought it" and the same said about City, and whilst I can appreciate what people are saying i don't agree with it. Every Chelsea fan I know (and living where I do I know many) love every game Chelsea win as much as we do when we win, they go crazy when they win cups and silverware the same way we do (its not meaningless because they bought it in their eyes as far as I can tell)

To me football has been about money for the longest time, this is just an extension of that and a bigger extreme of it.

Yea it was sweet when Crouch sent us into the CL and it was sweet when Woodgate scored against Chelsea (a game I was at and went crazy) but then how sweat would it have been to see Adebayor score a penalty in a shoot out to beat Bayern in their own back yard and bring the CL home to N17? (to me it would be sweeter)

I don't think its fair for you to suggest surprise at me remaining a Spurs fan, I'm not a glory hunter just because I want Spurs to be successful. I've been a Spurs fan for 30 years, its part of my heritage

I want Spurs to be successful, I want to see the club I love, the club my dad loves and the club my granddad loved winning things, I'm not glory hunting if I was I would have fled to man u or chelsea the same time several spurs fans from my school jumped ship in the 90s

My real point is I do not look down my nose at the success of Chelsea and Man City in the same way many Spurs fans do, I do not dismiss it as being worthless or worth-less because of the money involved in building the team toward that success to me a win is a win a cup is a cup and a league title is a league title.

To me had we won all that Chelsea had recently we'd have had our own glory glory era in my life time (in my eyes anyway even if other fans wouldn't have felt the same) and those glory glory years would have been probably the most successful in our clubs history (have we ever had a 10 year period of success like Chelsea have had since Roman took over?)

What I am saying is....getting fourth didn't feel any more special to me because we did it "the right way" it was special to me because SPurs had made it to the CL and by the same token winning the league wouldn't feel any less special to me because we had won it on the back of massive investment it would feel special because SPURS won it

You don't feel the same that is fine, I have always and will always support Spurs regardless through the good and the bad......I'm just saying if I had the option, personally I would swap our poisition for Man City's to have Spurs win the league and potentially win the CL etc and I would gladly swap places with Chelsea to have seen Spurs win all the things they have in recent years and me being the type of person I am would not have cared one bit (just like in truth all the Chelsea fans I know don't care one bit) that rival fans look down their nose and see the success as tarnished because of the money involved.

All I can say is look at the video footage of the City fans when they beat QPR to lift the title and over throw Utd and then look in the mirror at your face now whilst you think about Drogba's penalty dumped us out of the CL and ask yourself who's shoes you'd rather be in? if you're answer is still you'd prefer to do things the right way and not win but have the moral high ground that's cool, you just have a different outlook to me

I don't think the Man City fans felt the success on the final day was any less special because they had help from a billionaire to acquire it and I know for sure the Chelsea fans don't feel their CL victory is any less special because Roman bought it

The very bottom line is I wouldn't care what other fans thought if we had just one the CL because of Billionaire investment I'd just be delighted to see Spurs as European champions and like I say, personally I don't get any extra pleasure out of having the moral high ground, doing things the right way and being valiant in failure (but that's just me I guess)

Fair enough and I am sure you are a very loyal Spurs fan, never said you were a glory hunter mate it's just having that kind of mentality where you want things done without a billionaire owner and in-keeping with the traditions of Spurs is probably what makes Tottenham and other clubs like Everton different from Man.City/Chelsea(moreso Chelsea). I think if you as a lot of Everton fans for example would they like a billionaire arab or whoever to come and win them trophies even in the poor financial state they are in they would mostly still say no.


I think it is very much about the moral high-ground, sport has values and should not be a business and be all about money-if every fan forgets about that what's the point, then it just becomes which club has the most money, for me that's not sport. As someone said previously Blanchflower, Bill.Nick etc would be turning in their graves if they saw what football was like these days.

Anyway you are entitled to your opinion, touche.

 

[lukespurs7]

Like I said, I don't see the successes of Chelsea and City as cheaply and as irrelevant as many other Spurs fans seem to

I hear comments like "chelsea's success doesn't count because they bought it" and the same said about City, and whilst I can appreciate what people are saying i don't agree with it. Every Chelsea fan I know (and living where I do I know many) love every game Chelsea win as much as we do when we win, they go crazy when they win cups and silverware the same way we do (its not meaningless because they bought it in their eyes as far as I can tell)

To me football has been about money for the longest time, this is just an extension of that and a bigger extreme of it.

Yea it was sweet when Crouch sent us into the CL and it was sweet when Woodgate scored against Chelsea (a game I was at and went crazy) but then how sweat would it have been to see Adebayor score a penalty in a shoot out to beat Bayern in their own back yard and bring the CL home to N17? (to me it would be sweeter)

I don't think its fair for you to suggest surprise at me remaining a Spurs fan, I'm not a glory hunter just because I want Spurs to be successful. I've been a Spurs fan for 30 years, its part of my heritage

I want Spurs to be successful, I want to see the club I love, the club my dad loves and the club my granddad loved winning things, I'm not glory hunting if I was I would have fled to man u or chelsea the same time several spurs fans from my school jumped ship in the 90s

My real point is I do not look down my nose at the success of Chelsea and Man City in the same way many Spurs fans do, I do not dismiss it as being worthless or worth-less because of the money involved in building the team toward that success to me a win is a win a cup is a cup and a league title is a league title.

To me had we won all that Chelsea had recently we'd have had our own glory glory era in my life time (in my eyes anyway even if other fans wouldn't have felt the same) and those glory glory years would have been probably the most successful in our clubs history (have we ever had a 10 year period of success like Chelsea have had since Roman took over?)

What I am saying is....getting fourth didn't feel any more special to me because we did it "the right way" it was special to me because SPurs had made it to the CL and by the same token winning the league wouldn't feel any less special to me because we had won it on the back of massive investment it would feel special because SPURS won it

You don't feel the same that is fine, I have always and will always support Spurs regardless through the good and the bad......I'm just saying if I had the option, personally I would swap our poisition for Man City's to have Spurs win the league and potentially win the CL etc and I would gladly swap places with Chelsea to have seen Spurs win all the things they have in recent years and me being the type of person I am would not have cared one bit (just like in truth all the Chelsea fans I know don't care one bit) that rival fans look down their nose and see the success as tarnished because of the money involved.

All I can say is look at the video footage of the City fans when they beat QPR to lift the title and over throw Utd and then look in the mirror at your face now whilst you think about Drogba's penalty dumped us out of the CL and ask yourself who's shoes you'd rather be in? if you're answer is still you'd prefer to do things the right way and not win but have the moral high ground that's cool, you just have a different outlook to me

I don't think the Man City fans felt the success on the final day was any less special because they had help from a billionaire to acquire it and I know for sure the Chelsea fans don't feel their CL victory is any less special because Roman bought it

The very bottom line is I wouldn't care what other fans thought if we had just one the CL because of Billionaire investment I'd just be delighted to see Spurs as European champions and like I say, personally I don't get any extra pleasure out of having the moral high ground, doing things the right way and being valiant in failure (but that's just me I guess)

Fair enough and I am sure you are a very loyal Spurs fan, never said you were a glory hunter mate it's just having that kind of mentality where you want things done without a billionaire owner and in-keeping with the traditions of Spurs is probably what makes Tottenham and other clubs like Everton different from Man.City/Chelsea(moreso Chelsea). I think if you as a lot of Everton fans for example would they like a billionaire arab or whoever to come and win them trophies even in the poor financial state they are in they would mostly still say no.


I think it is very much about the moral high-ground, sport has values and should not be a business and be all about money-if every fan forgets about that what's the point, then it just becomes which club has the most money, for me that's not sport. As someone said previously Blanchflower, Bill.Nick etc would be turning in their graves if they saw what football was like these days.

Anyway you are entitled to your opinion, touche.

 

[spursphil]

Rich new owners don't always have the clubs best interests in mind.

 

[AngerManagement]

Rich new owners don't always have the clubs best interests in mind.

I certainly wouldn't want an evil owner who plans to get the club relegated so they can move the franchise to Florida (major league?)

 

[SoulDog]

Would much rather see us winning games by playing nice attractive football than playing horrible football and winning....

 

[Wiener]

‘It is better to fail aiming high than to succeed aiming low. And we of Spurs have set our sights very high, so high in fact that even failure will have in it an echo of glory.’

That sums it up nicely for me. It's not just about winning. Winning is great but we have to do it the Tottenham way, and there is a Tottenham way. No to Jose and no to Roman.

 

[Wiener]

Win it, every time and I bet there's not a Chelsea fan in the world who would swap their title as European Champions for a moral people champ label as the failed entertainers

As is well known Chelski fans are 10% white trash and 90% glory hunters. If you use them as a benchmark you are lost.

Moral victories count for fuck all, its like how the nation loves a try hard loser and resents a winner. Frank Bruno was loved while more often than not Lennox was not fully accepted nor appreciated.

I am having trouble following your logic. What exactly are you saying here? What do you mean by a "moral victory"? What do morals have to do with it?

Winning in the end is what counts, personally I'd swap the Roman era of Chelsea for our entire history in a heart beat (because at least I would have been alive to witness our success)

Strong words! Clearly winning is quite important to you.

 

[AngerManagement]

As is well known Chelski fans are 10% white trash and 90% glory hunters. If you use them as a benchmark you are lost.

Well known fact? or rather stupid generalisation?

I am having trouble following your logic. What exactly are you saying here? What do you mean by a "moral victory"? What do morals have to do with it?
Moral victory as in holding some sort of moral high ground as a result of not spending beyond your means in spite of having no actual success in real terms , what is hard to follow about that concept for you?


Strong words! Clearly winning is quite important to you
Well yes, that's the point I was making wasn't it?
.

I'm glad you at least decided to articulate your points instead of just randomly neg repping me without participating in the debate at least

 

[AngerManagement]

‘It is better to fail aiming high than to succeed aiming low. And we of Spurs have set our sights very high, so high in fact that even failure will have in it an echo of glory.’

That sums it up nicely for me. It's not just about winning. Winning is great but we have to do it the Tottenham way, and there is a Tottenham way. No to Jose and no to Roman.

Aiming high includes doing everything you can do to win silverware and be successful does it not?

Aiming low would seemingly be accepting your fate as an also run who cannot compete with the billionaire owned clubs

 

[Stavrogin]

Well, not really. I'm pretty sure the emphasis here is on how you win or lose, not whether you actually succeed.

ie. It's glorious to go toe to toe with billionaire clubs and if you fall short, it's still heroic. If you decide to compete with them by becoming one... meh. No one is actually going to be impressed by that. Nor should they, it's meaningless.

I wonder when attitudes like yours began to really take hold? Late 80s maybe? It's interesting.

 

[Spurs in Belgium]

tell Robben that, this is him at Bayern's post match dinner

That's me at the dinner party I was at after Bayern blew it. Told my wife I wanted to go as I was so gutted and couldn't make any conversation. She was pi@@ed off and told me I was embarrassing. Still fed up one week on.

 

[AngerManagement]

Well, not really. I'm pretty sure the emphasis here is on how you win or lose, not whether you actually succeed.

ie. It's glorious to go toe to toe with billionaire clubs and if you fall short, it's still heroic. If you decide to compete with them by becoming one... meh. No one is actually going to be impressed by that. Nor should they, it's meaningless.

I wonder when attitudes like yours began to really take hold? Late 80s maybe? It's interesting.

That honestly sounds to me like the British public making a national hero out of Frank Bruno the have a go hero who always came up short (aside his victory over McCall of course) but generally Bruno who was loved for having a go and losing to Tyson, Witherspoon, Lewis and Bone Crusher Smith while the British public never really took to Lennox Lewis in the same way in spite of the fact he beat everyone he faced and cemented himself as the greatest fighter of his generation

Ok I am not knocking you or anyone else who thinks there is much glory in trying hard and failing against bigger fish, that's fine...I am just saying that is not how I view the world of football personally. Heroic losses do nothing for me, England going out on penalties in world cups and Euro championships whilst playing against the odds (beckham sent off, Gazza missing chance whatever) do not thrill me in the same way actually bringing home the silverware would have.

I'm not saying winning is the only thing that counts but all this talk about glory in heroic losses by being the david fighting goliath do not fill me with pride in the same way it seems to do you and other such fans with a similar mind set, to coin a phrase "winning is not everything, but losing is nothing"

I'm not sure about the hows and whys people developed attitudes like mine, I can of course only really speak for myself. I first was old enough to watch football in 1988 when Holland and Van Basten won the Euros that was also the first season my dad took me to the Lane.

I think football itself was different then, or I was anyway because as I kid I never really looked further than the game I went to watch (exposure was so much lower) and I'd probably go to between 5-10 games per year with my dad until I was old enough to go more frequently and get season tickets etc

I don't actually think I felt the way I did now until Roman A took over Chelsea, maybe I got a if you can't beat 'em join 'em attitude

But I know a lot of Chelsea fans coming where I am from and I saw the pure elation on the faces of the City fans as they beat QPR and I am just being honest when I saw I'd personally love it if we were in the same position as either of these teams and I wouldn't care that we had bought the success or if other fans labelled us cheats or whatever, i'd just be happy to see Spurs win the league or the CL league etc.

I hope the FFP rule brings about an end to the success based on billionaire owners and clubs living in massive debts, truly I do, but for as long as that is the way to be successful I'd personally rather be in the haves than the have nots

 

[Wiener]

I'm glad you at least decided to articulate your points instead of just randomly neg repping me without participating in the debate at least

There is nothing random about my "disagreeing" with your opinion. I genuinely find it difficult to understand your view and I think I have articulated that reasonably clearly and consistently.

 

[AngerManagement]

There is nothing random about my "disagreeing" with your opinion. I genuinely find it difficult to understand your view and I think I have articulated that reasonably clearly and consistently.

The random nature I meant was at first it seemed you had just neg repped me without so much as articulating your point, so I was saying AT LEAST you actually bothered to write a reply instead of just leaving negative rep without an explanation

Personally I don't see the need to bother pressing red buttons when you can simply debate the issue with someone, but each to their own.

I really don't think you articulated anything clearly actually, aside from making a rather ignorant and stereotypical post about Chelsea fans and an expression that for some reason you were failing to grasp the concept of a supposed moral victory by losing to teams without "cheating"

Other than that, yes I get the point that you like many others would rather be an also run living within our means than a winner who obtained success by being bankrolled beyond our natural means, I'm not knocking you or anyone else who has that preference, I just don't share it and I do wonder if you would feel the same way if it were to actually become a reality and Spurs were lifting the CL trophy or if you would rejoice in the victory just like the Chelsea fans and Man City fans have done so recently.

 

[Blake Griffin]

i value good football, being entertained and a squad full of likable characters over winning at all costs. it may sound like loser speak but at the end of the day if the club you happen to support wins something, what's the big deal? you get to brag about it for a few days and feel good about yourself? the only annoying thing with spurs is that they dangle it on a hook infront of you and just when you think we're going to do it, they pull it away, but it's these lows that make you appreciate the highs, which in turn makes you come back for more. if we were say fulham, who've admittedly have gotten to where they are now by spending big, but don't have the potential to be a real big player then it's an easy life and you just enjoy playing nice football at a good level, but with spurs you know we have the potential to be massive but it never quite seems to happen.

so in summary if someone asked me if i'd want some rich qatari's taking over spurs then the answer would be ... hell no.

 

[Stavrogin]

That honestly sounds to me like the British public making a national hero out of Frank Bruno the have a go hero who always came up short (aside his victory over McCall of course) but generally Bruno who was loved for having a go and losing to Tyson, Witherspoon, Lewis and Bone Crusher Smith while the British public never really took to Lennox Lewis in the same way in spite of the fact he beat everyone he faced and cemented himself as the greatest fighter of his generation

Ok I am not knocking you or anyone else who thinks there is much glory in trying hard and failing against bigger fish, that's fine...I am just saying that is not how I view the world of football personally. Heroic losses do nothing for me, England going out on penalties in world cups and Euro championships whilst playing against the odds (beckham sent off, Gazza missing chance whatever) do not thrill me in the same way actually bringing home the silverware would have.

I'm not saying winning is the only thing that counts but all this talk about glory in heroic losses by being the david fighting goliath do not fill me with pride in the same way it seems to do you and other such fans with a similar mind set, to coin a phrase "winning is not everything, but losing is nothing"

But we're perceiving it differently. I, and others I suppose, view 'financial doping' as cheating. Ergo, winning by cheating doesn't mean a lot - anyone can do it, as Man city and chelsea proved - Man city in particular, as they've shown any prem club can be blasted to the title.

You're also misreading us, when someone says they would prefer us to do as we are doing than have a billionaire come in, they're being forced to pick between two kinds of defeats, because what they really want is a complete and utter victory, with glory, style and 'morality'. A completly unassailable accomplishment, anything less is unsatisfying.

For example, if we won a cup final via some kind of luck, i'd be pretty happy but I wouldn't be satisfied. A trophy means nothing, you have to know you're the best - and everyone else has to know it too.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It would be just our luck to be bought by a benevolent billionaire benefactor just as the FFP rules kick in and mean we couldn't take advantage.

 

[AngerManagement]

i value good football, being entertained and a squad full of likable characters over winning at all costs. it may sound like loser speak but at the end of the day if the club you happen to support wins something, what's the big deal? you get to brag about it for a few days and feel good about yourself? the only annoying thing with spurs is that they dangle it on a hook infront of you and just when you think we're going to do it, they pull it away, but it's these lows that make you appreciate the highs, which in turn makes you come back for more. if we were say fulham, who've admittedly have gotten to where they are now by spending big, but don't have the potential to be a real big player then it's an easy life and you just enjoy playing nice football at a good level, but with spurs you know we have the potential to be massive but it never quite seems to happen.

so in summary if someone asked me if i'd want some rich qatari's taking over spurs then the answer would be ... hell no.

That's a nice answer/post

I don't by any means think what you are saying is the loser speak

What is important to you about your club is individual, I understand winning not being everything, I understand wanting to see great football and I understand wanting to have a squad full of admirable/likeable players.

I'll be honest I don't brag about football ever, football to me has become very personal. Since I was young I stopped engaging in football banter with rival fans and bragging about wins and losses because I became very aware that 11 players success reflected in no way or form upon me so what right did I have to brag? Spurs' success is not my own success

I think there is merit in saying having lows makes you appreciate highs more, but then I look at the Man U and Chelsea fans I know who have seen their club win everything under the sun and they never seem to tire of the success. I think loser mentality is thinking that one win every now and then is enough, sustained success is the key and winners never loser the hunger for success.

I wouldn't brag or feel in anyway like I had achieved something because Spurs win, but then I also don't care THAT much about who the players are that play for our club. I lost that connection with the players when I was a teenager whatever, I haven't had a favourite player since Klinsmann so pretty much ever since then I just support the team, I don't love the players or hero worship them like I did when I was a kid or a teen

So while I'd not like a diver or a thug or a racist representing my club, I don't look up to the players and in all honesty I think the bulk of players are not overtly likeable with the amount of money they are paid and their conduct (at best they are meaningless entities to me as I don't know them personally and I don't care about what they do beyond how well they play for my club)

I support the club because I have always loved the club, my dad loves the club, my granddad loved the club and the club means a lot to me because of this. Its an integral part of my family, my relationship with my dad and my memories of my granddad (to this day I can't walk down the highroad without thinking of my granddad telling me "see that nightclub there, you wouldn't be born if it wasn't for that.....I met your nan in the Tottenham Royal")

I will support the club if they get relegated to the conference, winning is not EVERYTHING to me. That being said I want to see the club I love win things, not because I want the players to win, not because I want to brag to others but because I enjoy seeing Spurs win matches on a personal level and I enjoy seeing Tottenham win silverware.

I want us to win the league, the CL and frankly the only way I see that happening is to be bankrolled..... so for me personally if I could trade places with City or Chelsea I would because personally I'd rather see Spurs winning major honours than being the valiant David fighting Goliath without a sling shot (but that's just me, I am not knocking anyone who feels otherwise or suggesting you should feel the same way I do because just like the whole Stratford affair what the club means to you and what is important to the clubs identity is somewhat personal I feel)