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Player Watch - Tanguy Ndombele

Rubespur

Active Member
Dec 6, 2020
36
219
I am both curious and struggling to understand why NDombele has fitness (stamina?) issues and am hoping some of you who are sports scientists or have played or coached the game at a higher/advanced level can shed insights into what are fair expectations of a professional footballer (or NDombele).

I have an expectation that a professional footballer should be able to complete a match and not be running on fumes after an hour. However, I fully understand my lens in which I view players is as a fan who has played the game at very low standards. Is this expectation - being able to consistently complete a match (or at least a significant portion) - unrealistic?

I understand so much can vary, such as the player's attributes (mental/physical), the position on the pitch, the tactics of the coach/team set-up. I certainly appreciate players are going to burn through their energy stockpile in a pressing strategy versus a defensive-first minded team and a midfielder is going to get more distance under his/her belt then a CB. But I keep thinking, these are professional footballers - they should be able to maintain a high level of energy for a significant part of the match. After all, they are professionally trained with nutritionists, physios, training programs, fitness coaches, the latest equipment, etc.

Looking at NDombele's general stats from his time in France, I see, if I'm calculating correctly, he generally played about 55 minutes (Lyon - 2018 - Ligue 1: 34 matches for a total of 1,890 minutes) per match. Hence, I'm thinking, despite what I read about him needing to get up to fitness, is that perhaps he is already at peak fitness level, and I should expect him to be running on fumes at the hour mark.

I want to more fully celebrate and support this technically gifted player but keep thinking he should be able to show the skills in more minutes per match, because he is a professional footballer. Do I need to reframe my thinking?
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
I am both curious and struggling to understand why NDombele has fitness (stamina?) issues
I’m not sure he does at this time. I just feel that when protecting a lead, Mourinho’s natural inclination is to replace him with the more intense Lo Celso as that’s the only sub which will leave us more aggressive of the ball. Son, Kane and Bergwijn off for anyone makes is less robust.

As you saw v Arsenal, he also took off Lo Celso, and without a positional like replacement available he brought on a defender instead.
 

Mungo63

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2020
364
524
I am both curious and struggling to understand why NDombele has fitness (stamina?) issues and am hoping some of you who are sports scientists or have played or coached the game at a higher/advanced level can shed insights into what are fair expectations of a professional footballer (or NDombele).

I have an expectation that a professional footballer should be able to complete a match and not be running on fumes after an hour. However, I fully understand my lens in which I view players is as a fan who has played the game at very low standards. Is this expectation - being able to consistently complete a match (or at least a significant portion) - unrealistic?

I understand so much can vary, such as the player's attributes (mental/physical), the position on the pitch, the tactics of the coach/team set-up. I certainly appreciate players are going to burn through their energy stockpile in a pressing strategy versus a defensive-first minded team and a midfielder is going to get more distance under his/her belt then a CB. But I keep thinking, these are professional footballers - they should be able to maintain a high level of energy for a significant part of the match. After all, they are professionally trained with nutritionists, physios, training programs, fitness coaches, the latest equipment, etc.

Looking at NDombele's general stats from his time in France, I see, if I'm calculating correctly, he generally played about 55 minutes (Lyon - 2018 - Ligue 1: 34 matches for a total of 1,890 minutes) per match. Hence, I'm thinking, despite what I read about him needing to get up to fitness, is that perhaps he is already at peak fitness level, and I should expect him to be running on fumes at the hour mark.

I want to more fully celebrate and support this technically gifted player but keep thinking he should be able to show the skills in more minutes per match, because he is a professional footballer. Do I need to reframe my thinking?
Nope you’re spot on, I get caned on here every time I question him. His ability isn’t in doubt, his stamina/fitness/commitment are not at the level required. No idea why but it doesn’t seem to be improving
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
Christ afuckinglive, some of you go around in circles and just ignore every manager complaining about the congested fixture list and the toll it's taking on players, ignore that statistically this season has seen a sharp increase in injuries and fail to even bother analysing what players and what roles we choose to sub off on a regular basis especially with regards to the game management and the situation we are in. What players have consistently been doing double duty with Europa and Prem starts and just go for the, he's not at the required level that you imbeciles have created in your head.
 

HodisGawd

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2005
1,745
5,958
Nope you’re spot on, I get caned on here every time I question him. His ability isn’t in doubt, his stamina/fitness/commitment are not at the level required. No idea why but it doesn’t seem to be improving
I share this worry.

You do not spend top money on a player who is puffed out after an hour.

I don't care how good you are for 60 mins, that remains a problem. It affects the whole team, the tactics, the subs, the decisions available to the manager and possibly is the reason our other big signing is left on the bench to replace him.

We are weaker as a team when he goes off, for every match. For a third of every match we are weaker and if something doesn't change Ndombele will never be on hand to score a last-minute winner or thread a ball through to win a match.

He's been great when on the pitch this season, but - after a total waste of a first season - I still think he has some way to go to repay our outlay.

But sort out the stamina issue and I have no problem.
 

Cochise

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
4,902
12,737
Not sure if it was here or elsewhere that I read that part of the reason why he is so good at beating a man is the way in which he positions his body and centre of gravity. This allows him to draw people in and explode away with the ball but is at the same time very demanding on his muscles.

The theory of the poster was that it was this style that meant that by 60 minutes he was pushing at his limits because it is a very fatiguing way of playing.
 

Mungo63

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2020
364
524
I share this worry.

You do not spend top money on a player who is puffed out after an hour.

I don't care how good you are for 60 mins, that remains a problem. It affects the whole team, the tactics, the subs, the decisions available to the manager and possibly is the reason our other big signing is left on the bench to replace him.

We are weaker as a team when he goes off, for every match. For a third of every match we are weaker and if something doesn't change Ndombele will never be on hand to score a last-minute winner or thread a ball through to win a match.

He's been great when on the pitch this season, but - after a total waste of a first season - I still think he has some way to go to repay our outlay.

But sort out the stamina issue and I have no problem.
Spot on mate, you can’t build a team around a player who can’t last more than an hour and as someone else pointed out he was the same before he signed. His skill is amazing but that’s only a part of being a top class player.
 

yankspurs

Enic Out
Aug 22, 2013
41,994
71,424
In a season where fixtures are way more congested than usual & players are picking up injuries like none other, we are yelling about a player supposedly having fitness issues because the manager takes them off every game thereby saving him. Quite something. Lets ask Klopp what he thinks. Or Pochettino. Or Mourinho last season. For fucks sake, SC.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
I am both curious and struggling to understand why NDombele has fitness (stamina?) issues and am hoping some of you who are sports scientists or have played or coached the game at a higher/advanced level can shed insights into what are fair expectations of a professional footballer (or NDombele).

I have an expectation that a professional footballer should be able to complete a match and not be running on fumes after an hour. However, I fully understand my lens in which I view players is as a fan who has played the game at very low standards. Is this expectation - being able to consistently complete a match (or at least a significant portion) - unrealistic?

I understand so much can vary, such as the player's attributes (mental/physical), the position on the pitch, the tactics of the coach/team set-up. I certainly appreciate players are going to burn through their energy stockpile in a pressing strategy versus a defensive-first minded team and a midfielder is going to get more distance under his/her belt then a CB. But I keep thinking, these are professional footballers - they should be able to maintain a high level of energy for a significant part of the match. After all, they are professionally trained with nutritionists, physios, training programs, fitness coaches, the latest equipment, etc.

Looking at NDombele's general stats from his time in France, I see, if I'm calculating correctly, he generally played about 55 minutes (Lyon - 2018 - Ligue 1: 34 matches for a total of 1,890 minutes) per match. Hence, I'm thinking, despite what I read about him needing to get up to fitness, is that perhaps he is already at peak fitness level, and I should expect him to be running on fumes at the hour mark.

I want to more fully celebrate and support this technically gifted player but keep thinking he should be able to show the skills in more minutes per match, because he is a professional footballer. Do I need to reframe my thinking?
I’m somewhat guessing here, but I’d say it has to do with recovery time. Use him for 60 minutes and his recovery time is X. Use him for longer, and his recovery time is 3 times X. (This is for illustrative purposes). So during a football season where recovery margins are essential, you use the player for the amount of minutes that lead to a suitable recovery time. So it’s not that his body stops working after 60 minutes - it’s that it takes too long to get ready to work again.
My semi-informed guesswork.
 

DiVaio

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2020
4,188
17,459
Nope you’re spot on, I get caned on here every time I question him. His ability isn’t in doubt, his stamina/fitness/commitment are not at the level required. No idea why but it doesn’t seem to be improving
His stamina/fitness/commitment are at the level required.
 

DiVaio

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2020
4,188
17,459
Not by Jose and he’s the only one that counts
I can bet that if Ndombele wasn't committed to be here, he wouldn't be here. And he wouldn't be starting most of the games. And with fitness/stamina problems he wouldn't be one of the most pressing player in the league.
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wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
And ALWAYS subs him. Look I understand there’s a few on here that think he’s top class, I just don’t see it.

Because we have a squad which is absolutely fucking brimming with quality. You think he'd fucking start a player he didn't trust and you try and justify it by looking at him bringing on a quality sub, it's ridiculous.

Look do you like the fact that this season for the first time in forever we have some absolutely quality options on the bench? Because one of the benefits of having a squad which has quality in reserve is that you can ask players to fucking smash it knowing there's a player on the bench you can bring on and not see the quality dip.

We're usually winning but if we were losing do you think he's going to bring Tanguy off instead of Sissoko? Do you think Jose doesn't rate Bale as a player? Yet he doesn't bring him on in recent weeks, why? Because of the situation in the game, if we were losing Bale would be getting put on the pitch.

This isn't about me thinking he's top class and you not agreeing, this has nothing to do with that. This has to do with you every week coming in this thread and trying to bring up his fitness with nonsense justifications because you don't rate him, you're sitting here quoting people saying, yeah you're spot on to them just because they fall on your side of the coin whilst not even looking to comprehend clear justifications for it, ignoring @DiVaio posting stats which show the immense work he's getting through, consistently outdoing players who are playing 90 minutes for sprint stats.

If you don't rate him, I can accept that, that's your view but don't expect to come into this thread saying he's not at the required levels stating it like it's a fact and expect people not to respond.
 

Mungo63

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2020
364
524
Because we have a squad which is absolutely fucking brimming with quality. You think he'd fucking start a player he didn't trust and you try and justify it by looking at him bringing on a quality sub, it's ridiculous.

Look do you like the fact that this season for the first time in forever we have some absolutely quality options on the bench? Because one of the benefits of having a squad which has quality in reserve is that you can ask players to fucking smash it knowing there's a player on the bench you can bring on and not see the quality dip.

We're usually winning but if we were losing do you think he's going to bring Tanguy off instead of Sissoko? Do you think Jose doesn't rate Bale as a player? Yet he doesn't bring him on in recent weeks, why? Because of the situation in the game, if we were losing Bale would be getting put on the pitch.

This isn't about me thinking he's top class and you not agreeing, this has nothing to do with that. This has to do with you every week coming in this thread and trying to bring up his fitness with nonsense justifications because you don't rate him, you're sitting here quoting people saying, yeah you're spot on to them just because they fall on your side of the coin whilst not even looking to comprehend clear justifications for it, ignoring @DiVaio posting stats which show the immense work he's getting through, consistently outdoing players who are playing 90 minutes for sprint stats.

If you don't rate him, I can accept that, that's your view but don't expect to come into this thread saying he's not at the required levels stating it like it's a fact and expect people not to respond.
Blimey mate you having a bad day? You’ve got to an awful lot of trouble there but I’ll judge a player, every player, by what he produces on the pitch not what I read on forums.
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
Blimey mate you having a bad day? You’ve got to an awful lot of trouble there but I’ll judge a player, every player, by what he produces on the pitch not what I read on forums.

Cool absolutely nothing to do with what I said, I'm having a great day mate and look forward to you repeating the same nonsense in 2 weeks without any substance.
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,676
78,542
I think people are reading too much into his fitness. I think the main reason he comes off is because we have great players on the bench like Lo Celso. It just makes sense to bring on a fresh player at that time and it doesn't upset the balance of the defensive unit. If we didn't have such great options he would probably finish more games.
 
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