Player Watch - Djed Spence - Genoa

wrd said:

Evidently they wouldn't:

Rio Ferdinand: Carlos Tevez was lazy in training at Manchester United

Rio Ferdinand has accused former Manchester United team-mate Carlos Tevez of taking it easy in training before his move to Manchester City.

metro.co.uk

In January 2016, amid some outstanding form from the German, Arsene Wenger explained the secret behind keeping him at his best: “Mesut, I gave him a one-week holiday during the international break.

“He doesn’t practise a lot, we rest him a lot between the games. He is a guy who once the basic fitness is there between the games, he wants to play.”

I don't think Spence was like either of those characters except perhaps Ozil but the idea that you earn your minutes on the training ground is demonstrably false. The way you get players like Spence to train better is to put faith in them. Some people need to feel like they're believed in. This idea that everybody is going to give 100% always has never played out in real life in any environment.

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???

You really tried to prove your point with Tevez from 2010, and Ozil from 2016.

Ozil in 2016: "Despite an impressive first half to the campaign, Özil would then struggle with muscular problems, and was absent for a number of Arsenal's games"

Bluto Blutarsky said:

???

You really tried to prove your point with Tevez from 2010, and Ozil from 2016.

Ozil in 2016: "Despite an impressive first half to the campaign, Özil would then struggle with muscular problems, and was absent for a number of Arsenal's games"

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Seeing as you have no issue being condescending, I'm happy to be more direct. First of all, I said that it can't be judged whether a player is ready just through training alone. I'm clearly correct because being ready is relevant to your ability to be at the level required to perform in a premier league match where you are not out of your depth and there is absolutely no evidence to support that effort levels in training correlate as the defining factor to a players ability to being ready for premier league games. Your response suggests that I said it was about earning a start from the manager meaning you completely misread what I put. I chose to respond anyway as it was an interesting enough point but as you decided to respond the way you did I am more than happy to explain that you didn't comprehend the original point.

To respond to your next point, you said every pl manager would disagree with me, I'd concede my point would be better made if I had a more up to date quote but I doubt much has changed from those times, Ozil's later form was irrelevant to the point that Wenger is an example of a manager who knew that players need to be treated differently if the goal is to get the most out of the player. if you think that every manager picks players based on what they show in the week in training then you are fooling yourself into thinking that things are ever that fair, it is phony rhetoric that managers throw out. Managers pick based on what team they think will get them the results, whether that be long or short term. A player can be amazing in training but if the manager's favourite player is fit, even if they aren't showing the level in training, the manager will still often favour what they know to have gotten them results in the past. Managers consistently pick experience over youth despite ability and effort. It's a job of self preservation and managers like fergie knew that some players need a carrot and some need a stick to get the best out of them and they knew how to best deal with players as individuals to yield the best results as opposed to believing myths like everybody must be judged equally.

You're laughing @bluto, but anyone who has ever played a team sport on a decent level, or even seriously as a youth, knows there are a few players in each team that are just a different animal during games compared to the training sessions. And it's not because they don't care, it's simply because it would be mentally impossible for them to be in that game-day mindset day in and day out.

That's why I always find it a bit puzzling how a lot of managers constantly say they pick those who put the most effort in during practice. In my experience, coaches who overvalue that aspect tend to constantly pick the wrong team, because those who stood out with their effort in training were the players with a point to prove, not the players with the best ability.

Then, OF COURSE, there are those who phone it in completely, and maybe Djed is one of those, I don't know. But I truly feel it's a weird drum to constantly beat from some coaches; it's failing to grasp how differently games/training can drain players mentally.

Good to have a balanced assessment on here. On reddit he's already been crowned the messiah.

Spursfan1414 said:

Same post you say that other people who watch will agree with you “unless they’re completely blinded by their dislike of Conte”.

Framing it like that turns everything into an argument when it could be a reasonable disagreement, a point you understood perfectly 1 post later when it was directed at people who share your opinion:


If you don’t want people referring to you as a “Conte lover”, match that energy and don’t accuse people who disagree of being “completely blinded by Conte dislike”. Just common courtesy to not speak to other people in a way that you’d object to being spoken to.

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Mate, I was just trying to give a balanced view of his first full game since he joined us, which is kinda what this thread is for.
The swing between "Conte lovers" and "Conte haters" in here is ridiculous sometimes and there's nothing in between.
I think anyone who states that Spence should have played more based on one moment in one game, is talking out if their arse. There's much more to it than that

Not sure why you seem to have such a hard on for me here?
Feels like you're reading what you want into things without reading what I've been saying throughout the last few pages

Spursfan1414 said:

Lots of people who seem to feel more confident about Conte’s decision not to use Spence at all this season after watching the game, primarily because of perceived defensive issues.

I haven’t seen a single person deny that Spence is a clear upgrade on Emerson offensively, based on this game and what he showed last season.

But that’s what Conte’s position must be, otherwise he’d have used Spence as an offensive change for Emerson in games we were losing late on when we needed to throw caution to the wind and go for it.

So for people who think this vindicates Conte’s decision, what did you see that makes you think Spence is completely useless even as an attacking alternative to Emerson?

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Yeah that's an interesting point. Conte has often thrown on forwards late in games so you wonder why he never threw Spence on at RWB when we were chasing a game with 15-20 to go.

I suspect it all comes down to 'trust' which is a phrase Conte uses a lot when talking about selecting players. It doesn't matter how amazing Spence is going forward or skinning people in training - if Conte doesn't trust him to go out there and follow his instructions then he's not even going to use him as a sub. When throwing caution into the wind Conte still wants players who do exactly what they're told and aren't just being mavericks.

Pure speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if there's also an element of stubbornness on Conte's part, or a slight personality clash between the two. Spence hardly strikes me as the PEH, Kane consummate professional type and has a kind of maverick energy about him (there were quotes from a journo or ITK that his attitude in training is still more like that of a Championship player).

If Redknapp was manager none of this would matter and Spence would start 90% of games regardless cos his pace and ability going forward is amazing, but a manager like Conte is all about the grit, determination and hard work - it's no coincidence PEH has been an ever present, while Dele and Ndombele were straight out of the door.

Shanks said:

I don’t understand the wake up call part - assuming you meant for fans, rather than the player?

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For us as we think of him as the next messiah coming, but only Conte sees him train everyday and it’s obvious he has defensive flaws he needs to work on.

olliec said:

For us as we think of him as the next messiah coming, but only Conte sees him train everyday and it’s obvious he has defensive flaws he needs to work on.

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Ah yeah that makes sense then, thought it was posted about the player!

everything I’ve heard about him, is that he’ll work hard to get his chance, no giving up etc - all positive attitude traits, but yeah for fans, give the kid some time to improve

McFlash said:

He's very good bursting forward but after that move, not so quick to get back into position.
Just sort of ambling back and that may be part of the reason he wasn't impressing Conte.
A minute after he'd put a dangerous cross through and he hadn't even made it back to the half way line.

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Whenever I've seen Bissouma for us I've noticed the same thing... albeit he has improved in his last few outings, I still don't think he's figured out quite where he's supposed to be positionally when defending or at least on a turnover of possession he seems to get caught out a bit too often (albeit Hojbjerg has been almost as bad at times, except his let downs are cheap passes rather than positional mistakes more often than not) IMHO

H-SF said:

Bissouma is defo being misused but just isn't really a good fit for the role Conte wants his midfielders in the 3-4-3 to play. He'd be much better in a front foot high pressing side, prime Liverpool for example. For us a lot of emphasis is placed on his ball playing (which he doesn't excel at) rather than his strengths in ball winning/evading pressure. Gil obviously Conte has concerns about him physically but makes his distrust in Spence slightly weird considering he excels physically and technically is better than Emerson at least.

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See above, I think Spence & Bissouma are struggling with the same areas to varying degrees, it didn't help Bissouma getting covid in pre-season and Spence was another late arrival then we had a game every 3 days upto to the sport washing cup.

Everyone was hoping that time would help Spence, Bissouma, Sarr, Gil to catch up but I'd imagine it's very tricky do properly without a full squad being there, I think Bissouma looked better but still not fully there, Sarr definitely looked like he took a lot onboard possibly even passing Bissouma; how much of that is down to understanding what's being asked and how much is their own natural confidence affecting what we/you/I see when they've played is open to interpretation; the only one it was impossible to make a progress judgment on was Spence because I think he only got around 10 mins.

I never saw enough of Bissouma at Brighton but to me it looks tactically like he'd suit how we played yesterday vs City much more than how we'd previously been playing, all just my own opinions.

chrissivad said:

Spence still has a lot of work to do on his game, but looks like he will be a good attacking RWB.

Udogie has the same issue when he just jogs back or stands watching play go on around him. Udogie can get away with it a bit more as he plays with a back 3 behind him.

If Spence plays in a back 4 for the rest of the season, it should help improve his defensive game.

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This is the only thing I can see holding Udogie back slightly when he first joins. In general play he’s very tidy, going forward he’s very good and he’s definitely capable of putting a foot in when he puts his mind to it but he does quite often seem to stand around ball watching when the other team is on the attack. He doesn’t even scan around to see if he can pick up any late runners. Obviously we don’t know what he’s been instructed to do defensively but I’d be pretty surprised if any manager would be happy with him not even staying switched on to cover runners coming through his area.

I think like you say playing in a back 4 may help switch Spence on a bit more as there’s no excuse he can make like “Oh it’s okay the RCB is there to cover the right hand side”, if he’s out of position or doesn’t track back or cover runners then the blame will rest solely with him and hopefully that responsibility will help him mature a bit as a player

Flobadob said:

This is the only thing I can see holding Udogie back slightly when he first joins. In general play he’s very tidy, going forward he’s very good and he’s definitely capable of putting a foot in when he puts his mind to it but he does quite often seem to stand around ball watching when the other team is on the attack. He doesn’t even scan around to see if he can pick up any late runners. Obviously we don’t know what he’s been instructed to do defensively but I’d be pretty surprised if any manager would be happy with him not even staying switched on to cover runners coming through his area.

I think like you say playing in a back 4 may help switch Spence on a bit more as there’s no excuse he can make like “Oh it’s okay the RCB is there to cover the right hand side”, if he’s out of position or doesn’t track back or cover runners then the blame will rest solely with him and hopefully that responsibility will help him mature a bit as a player

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Don't say things like that about Udogie.
I've already read on here that he's going to be a world beater opposite Porro next season - best in the league apparently.
?

THFCSPURS19 said:

There is absolutely nothing to back up this statement.

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There’s also not a lot to prove he is worth a place. Not sure the French league is the best place to prove it either.

Timberwolf said:

I suspect it all comes down to 'trust' which is a phrase Conte uses a lot when talking about selecting players. It doesn't matter how amazing Spence is going forward or skinning people in training - if Conte doesn't trust him to go out there and follow his instructions then he's not even going to use him as a sub. When throwing caution into the wind Conte still wants players who do exactly what they're told and aren't just being mavericks.

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I think this is very likely what was happening.

Spence seems to fit the mould of being a Spurs signing - young, English, attacking - so Conte's comments about being a "club signing" ring true. It may have been the plan all along to loan him out, but those first 6 months would be an opportunity to see if Spence would impress Conte enough to earn a first team place and skip the loan step. It's apparent that he didn't.

If we view Spence as a player starting that loan development process I reckon it makes the Conte snubs understandable. If Spence was signed to make an immediate impact on the starting XI then it's definitely not gone to plan!

vegassd said:

I think this is very likely what was happening.

Spence seems to fit the mould of being a Spurs signing - young, English, attacking - so Conte's comments about being a "club signing" ring true. It may have been the plan all along to loan him out, but those first 6 months would be an opportunity to see if Spence would impress Conte enough to earn a first team place and skip the loan step. It's apparent that he didn't.

If we view Spence as a player starting that loan development process I reckon it makes the Conte snubs understandable. If Spence was signed to make an immediate impact on the starting XI then it's definitely not gone to plan!

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Yeah hard to say. Probably one of those deals that just felt too convenient to not punt on: highly rated, young, lightning fast, homegrown, wingback - very rare a player ticks all those boxes. I suspect the club were hoping Conte would be impressed with him and he'd solve all of our WB problems without us needing to spend another 45m the following window...

Tbh, his ceiling is so damn high that he's probably still going to be a good signing long term even if it takes him a while to get into the team. It's not like Sess where it was never clear how good he could be - Spence's pace and directness are unlike anything I've seen from a full-back at Spurs since Bale and Walker. If he keeps developing and gets anywhere near to fulfilling his potential then he's gonna be a hell of a player.

Timberwolf said:

Yeah hard to say. Probably one of those deals that just felt too convenient to not punt on: highly rated, young, lightning fast, homegrown, wingback - very rare a player ticks all those boxes. I suspect the club were hoping Conte would be impressed with him and he'd solve all of our WB problems without us needing to spend another 45m the following window...

Tbh, his ceiling is so damn high that he's probably still going to be a good signing long term even if it takes him a while to get into the team. It's not like Sess where it was never clear how good he could be - Spence's pace and directness are unlike anything I've seen from a full-back at Spurs since Bale and Walker. If he keeps developing and gets anywhere near to fulfilling his potential then he's gonna be a hell of a player.

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Exactly and that is why we have a DOF. It will be Paratici's job to make a call whether a signing like Spence can be of use to the current manager but also be good long term investment for the club and be valued by future managers.

I reckon Conte recognises the talent, and therefore approved the signing. But Spence just isn't at the level he needs him to be to really work in his system.

he looks hungry...

I really hope he gets his chance.

McFlash said:

Mate, I was just trying to give a balanced view of his first full game since he joined us, which is kinda what this thread is for.
The swing between "Conte lovers" and "Conte haters" in here is ridiculous sometimes and there's nothing in between.
I think anyone who states that Spence should have played more based on one moment in one game, is talking out if their arse. There's much more to it than that

Not sure why you seem to have such a hard on for me here?
Feels like you're reading what you want into things without reading what I've been saying throughout the last few pages

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So you’re telling me that you object to people who agree with you being called “Conte lovers” because that turns “everything into an argument”.

But you have no idea why people who disagree with you might feel the same way about you saying they didn’t actually watch the game and if they did they were “completely blinded by dislike of Conte”?

Come on. It’s exactly the same point you made yourself. What’s the difference? You’re telling me you don’t like “Conte lovers” because it turns this into an argument but if I’d said “you’re completely blinded by your love of Conte” you’d think that was really constructive of me?

I don’t have any hard on for or against you (lol). I thought your post was a bit rude and hypocritical so I gave you a negative rating, you called me out asking for an explanation and I’ve given you one. I was fine leaving it at meaningless internet points, all I’ve done since is reply to you to explain.

I thought you’d say “fair enough” and then I’d remove the rating because I’m not (that much of) a dick.

Spursfan1414 said:

So you’re telling me that you object to people who agree with you being called “Conte lovers” because that turns “everything into an argument”.

But you have no idea why people who disagree with you might feel the same way about you saying they didn’t actually watch the game and if they did they were “completely blinded by dislike of Conte”?

Come on. It’s exactly the same point you made yourself. What’s the difference? You’re telling me you don’t like “Conte lovers” because it turns this into an argument but if I’d said “you’re completely blinded by your love of Conte” you’d think that was really constructive of me?

I don’t have any hard on for or against you (lol). I thought your post was a bit rude and hypocritical so I gave you a negative rating, you called me out asking for an explanation and I’ve given you one. I was fine leaving it at meaningless internet points, all I’ve done since is reply to you to explain.

I thought you’d say “fair enough” and then I’d remove the rating because I’m not (that much of) a dick.

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As I said, it was supposed to be light-hearted and the bloke said that he hadn't watched the game.
You're trying to make something out of nothing, taking the odd comment out of the context of the thread.
I don't like the phrase "Conte lovers" and I don't like the phrase "Conte haters" but sadly, there are plenty of both extremes on here.

But all that aside, why the fuck are you arguing on someone else's behalf?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill for no good reason.

Has Djed played today?????
Just asking.