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Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

McFlash

In the corner, eating crayons.
Oct 19, 2005
12,990
46,598
I swear the 'storm of negativity' is one ITK saying some youth players were disappointed they hadn't been given a chance in an injury crisis.

Some people really need to chill out with the pearl clutching.
To randomly quote the Divine Comedy...

"A butterfly flies through the forest rain, and turns the wind into a hurricane".

These little things have a knack of escalating wildy in there parts.
 

Nick-TopSpursMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
4,215
20,505
We support Spurs because we love the club and it's either a beautiful thing that's been inherited through family or a chosen love either because of proximity to the area or because it's something you found in your life. Or all of the above.

Winning trophies is the dream, it's the journey we go on as fans. It's what we strive for but it should never supersede the most important thing in football which is the connection you feel with your club, with the clubs identity.

We have never been a club who won loads of league titles and trophies every single year but we've always been a club famous for an attacking style of football, for being pioneers, for being the first to do things, for doing things the right way. And along the way we've had our glory moments too with 2 league titles, 8 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 2 UEFA Cups and a Cup WInner's Cup.

By hiring Mourinho, Nuno, Conte etc we abandoned our clubs identity and motto and this is what leads to alienation among the club itself and our fanbase. The last few years have been, quite frankly, shit to watch and most fans felt no connection with the club.

Winning trophies is HARD. If that's all there is to supporting a club, then most of the 92 clubs and fans in the football league should call it a day and stop bothering. It's even harder these days because entire nations own football clubs and dominate.

I truly believe we can things and I badly want to win things but I want to do it the right way without compromising our identity and beliefs as a club. That way, if we do one day win a league title or a CL, or even an FA Cup, that 1 trophy will have more connection and more meaning than any of the trophies won by plastic clubs like City and Chelsea.

Moreover I don't believe we can win trophies playing shit, defensive football. The Spurs way of playing, having the ball, taking risks, attacking opponents, is far more likely to win us things consistently.

We've just lost 3 games in a row and yet I feel more connected to the club than I have since the CL final. That's because we have a manager and a group of players who actually represent our identity and believe in our motto. That makes me proud and gives me infinitely more belief that we can be successful.

So keep going Ange, get through this tough period. Spurs identity and DNA is in you, we can see it. We are behind you! COYS
 
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fecka

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2013
2,346
6,520
An interesting take from Nathan Clark.



We've all felt it since the Pool game and the data is beginning to show it too. I still don't want Ange to do an Arteta or Klopp and go feral on VAR and the refs, but it's looking likely that the PL is over-correcting in regards to the error VAR made in the Liverpool game.
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,675
78,524
I don't think the football they play is dated at all, there are many ways of winning a football match and they will be different tactics which suit different games.
Jose and Conte have pretty rigid tactics though. Conte to the point where each player has to play a very specific position and role. It's totally different to Ange where he allows players to see a space and fill it. So it's not really a case of different tactics for different games. They have their philosophy and don't move away from it just like Klopp and Guardiola. I'm just not seeing successful managers at the top level play a defence first approach. Arteta the latest to challenge for the title and those 3 at the top are playing on the front foot. I just don't see a Jose or a Conte winning the title with those teams around. I'm also not seeing the top 3 teams change apart from Liverpool at ours when they went down to 9 men. Other than that they play their own way home and away. They make tactical tweaks but the fundamental part of the game is still the same and its with intent to get forward and score goals.
 

Yantino

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2012
690
3,144
We support Spurs because we love the club and it's either a beautiful thing that's been inherited through family or a chosen love either because of proximity to the area or because it's something you found in your life. Or all of the above.

Winning trophies is the dream, it's the journey we go on as fans. It's what we strive for but it should never supersede the most important thing in football which is the connection you feel with your club, with the clubs identity.

We have never been a club who won loads of league titles and trophies every single year but we've always been a club famous for an attacking style of football, for being pioneers, for being the first to do things, for doing things the right way. And along the way we've had our glory moments too with 2 league titles, 8 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 2 UEFA Cups and a Cup WInner's Cup.

By hiring Mourinho, Nuno, Conte etc we abandoned our clubs identity and motto and this is what leads to alienation among the club itself and our fanbase. The last few years have been, quite frankly, shit to watch and most fans felt no connection with the club.

Winning trophies is HARD. If that's all there is to supporting a club, then most of the 92 clubs and fans in the football league should call it a day and stop bothering. It's even harder these days because entire nations own football clubs and dominate.

I truly believe we can things and I badly want to win things but I want to do it the right way without compromising our identity and beliefs as a club. That way, if we do one day win a league title or a CL, or even an FA Cup, that 1 trophy will have more connection and more meaning than any of the trophies won by plastic clubs like City and Chelsea.

Moreover I don't believe we can win trophies playing shit, defensive football. The Spurs way of playing, having the ball, taking risks, attacking opponents, is far more likely to win us things consistently.

We've just lost 3 games in a row and yet I feel more connected to the club than I have since the CL final. That's because we have a manager and a group of players who actually represent our identity and believe in our motto. That makes me proud and gives me infinitely more belief that we can be successful.

So keep going Ange, get through this tough period. Spurs identity and DNA is in you, we can see it. We are behind you! COYS
Spot on.
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,675
78,524
I don't disagree. 3 close mates passing away and then having emergency surgery... hence why I said it feels like a cursed existence for us. Before Conte's life exploded we had started the season very well.
Yeah we have the worst luck :cautious:
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
19,540
48,811
I've come away from every loss or draw this season, maybe apart from Wolves, feeling really positive and thinking "we could've/should've won that".
Thinking that players have put in great performances and not really pissed off at a single one of them.

I haven't felt like that after a loss for a long time and there's a genuine feeling of change throughout the club.
It's nice to feel proud again.
Great post, I feel the same.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
19,540
48,811
Not sure it has to be honest. If anything it has proven more relevant than ever. We tried to just win games under 2 of the most successful managers in football and still couldn't win. The last time a team won the title playing the less attractive game was Chelsea under our last manager. City have dominated since then and they play attacking football. Liverpool also won it one year playing attacking football. Its been a while since a team won without playing that way. It also turned toxic at the stadium due to the brand of football even though we were challening for top 4. Already this season has been a party atmosphere simply by playing attacking football again. Many fans still talk about the days under Poch and Redknapp with those teams we had, yet we won nothing. People don't talk much about Graham and Ramos. The last successful manager to win and play memorable football was Venables 30 years ago. Fans still remember that team and cup win more fondly than the 2 league cups. That's what we need to strive for again.
Spot on mate
 

easley91

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
19,176
55,012
So basically this fanbase will never be 100% happy. Some want to win no matter the style, some want to be entertained, some just want to moan about anything and everything.

Genuinely thought the consensus when Ange came in was we wanted to be on the front foot and not sit back for 90 minutes regardless of the end result. I know I saw people on here say they would rather lose 4-5 than win 1-0 defending the box for 90 minutes. So now after 3 defeats (which in context is with a number of players missing and really only one sub par performance being Wolves) there are some who are saying they don't care about the style or performance.

Oh and this youth thing.. why play Donley in a midfield without Bissouma, Sarr, Maddison or Bentancur? Why play Dorrington without Romero or VDV alongside him to guide him for 90 minutes in a competitive Premier League game? I wouldn't start him with Emerson, Davies or Dier. It makes zero sense to just throw them to wolves. They underperform and the knives will be out. Ange has to be smart about when and how he uses them. If it means they have to wait a little longer then so be it.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
19,540
48,811
We support Spurs because we love the club and it's either a beautiful thing that's been inherited through family or a chosen love either because of proximity to the area or because it's something you found in your life. Or all of the above.

Winning trophies is the dream, it's the journey we go on as fans. It's what we strive for but it should never supersede the most important thing in football which is the connection you feel with your club, with the clubs identity.

We have never been a club who won loads of league titles and trophies every single year but we've always been a club famous for an attacking style of football, for being pioneers, for being the first to do things, for doing things the right way. And along the way we've had our glory moments too with 2 league titles, 8 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 2 UEFA Cups and a Cup WInner's Cup.

By hiring Mourinho, Nuno, Conte etc we abandoned our clubs identity and motto and this is what leads to alienation among the club itself and our fanbase. The last few years have been, quite frankly, shit to watch and most fans felt no connection with the club.

Winning trophies is HARD. If that's all there is to supporting a club, then most of the 92 clubs and fans in the football league should call it a day and stop bothering. It's even harder these days because entire nations own football clubs and dominate.

I truly believe we can things and I badly want to win things but I want to do it the right way without compromising our identity and beliefs as a club. That way, if we do one day win a league title or a CL, or even an FA Cup, that 1 trophy will have more connection and more meaning than any of the trophies won by plastic clubs like City and Chelsea.

Moreover I don't believe we can win trophies playing shit, defensive football. The Spurs way of playing, having the ball, taking risks, attacking opponents, is far more likely to win us things consistently.

We've just lost 3 games in a row and yet I feel more connected to the club than I have since the CL final. That's because we have a manager and a group of players who actually represent our identity and believe in our motto. That makes me proud and gives me infinitely more belief that we can be successful.

So keep going Ange, get through this tough period. Spurs identity and DNA is in you, we can see it. We are behind you! COYS
12 winners and counting, fantastic fantastic post.
 

fecka

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2013
2,346
6,520
So basically this fanbase will never be 100% happy. Some want to win no matter the style, some want to be entertained, some just want to moan about anything and everything.

Genuinely thought the consensus when Ange came in was we wanted to be on the front foot and not sit back for 90 minutes regardless of the end result. I know I saw people on here say they would rather lose 4-5 than win 1-0 defending the box for 90 minutes. So now after 3 defeats (which in context is with a number of players missing and really only one sub par performance being Wolves) there are some who are saying they don't care about the style or performance.

Oh and this youth thing.. why play Donley in a midfield without Bissouma, Sarr, Maddison or Bentancur? Why play Dorrington without Romero or VDV alongside him to guide him for 90 minutes in a competitive Premier League game? I wouldn't start him with Emerson, Davies or Dier. It makes zero sense to just throw them to wolves. They underperform and the knives will be out. Ange has to be smart about when and how he uses them. If it means they have to wait a little longer then so be it.
Agreed. They need a good platform and environment to be able to succeed. Casually throwing them in carries a massive risk.
 

-Afri-Coy-

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2012
5,867
18,663
First of all, the word glory has nothing to do with winning.

Secondly, it's not 'a few injuries and suspensions'. From the starting XI against United, six players were missing against Wolves and Villa! It's an extraordinary situation in terms of absentees. It's not possible to have that much squad depth and maintain a squad where everyone are happy. The higher the quality of the squad players, the more game time they demand, and without Europe, those minutes simply don't exist. Yes, we're light in defense, but with both starting CBs out there will be a drop in quality for any team. Especially when the entire starting midfield is out as well.

And we still managed to outplay Villa. Newcastle, with their infinite wealth, have also been ravaged by injuries and lost 2-0 to Bournemouth. City were without Rodri (and KDB) and lost three on the trot despite having the best squad depth in the world. And despite our rotten luck, we're only four points off top, with players coming back and an easier schedule on the horizon.
IMG_5741.jpeg


The word glory has everything to do with winning in this context (football).

You can look up Arsenal’s injury list, you can look up Liverpool’s from last season. Every team has a slight edge in terms of depth over us. The quality in drop off from the best 11 to the bench is staggering. That’s what I took into account when I said that. I don’t expect us or any other team to have the depth City has, but we can definitely replace players with younger, hungrier individuals with little financial outlay. All it takes is being smart financially and be willing to get the job done.

Nothing you’ve said is wrong though, and I agree with it too. We’ve had some rotten luck and in hindsight it is a bit idealistic to want us to be covered in this situation but the damage could’ve been mitigated by signing just another CB during the summer. Small margins.
 

-Afri-Coy-

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2012
5,867
18,663
Jose and Conte have pretty rigid tactics though. Conte to the point where each player has to play a very specific position and role. It's totally different to Ange where he allows players to see a space and fill it. So it's not really a case of different tactics for different games. They have their philosophy and don't move away from it just like Klopp and Guardiola. I'm just not seeing successful managers at the top level play a defence first approach. Arteta the latest to challenge for the title and those 3 at the top are playing on the front foot. I just don't see a Jose or a Conte winning the title with those teams around. I'm also not seeing the top 3 teams change apart from Liverpool at ours when they went down to 9 men. Other than that they play their own way home and away. They make tactical tweaks but the fundamental part of the game is still the same and its with intent to get forward and score goals.

The vast majority of modern, successful managers all follow an attacking principle. Even if we give Conte and JM the benefit of the doubt and say it can work, those would be the exceptions and no where near the general rule.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
19,654
331,857
Agreed. They need a good platform and environment to be able to succeed. Casually throwing them in carries a massive risk.
Eddie Howe started 17 yo Lewis Miley against PSG last night who didn't look at all out of place in an injury riddled side. You need to have a little more faith in these kids coming through. 2-3 years ago I would never have pushed for any of them to get minutes because they weren't up to it. The players I am talking about are stand outs in their age group and should be getting game time when half the squad is crocked and/or playing out of position. I'd also add if we had everybody fit I wouldn't be pushing it either. It's the fact that we are so light in personnel right now and they are still being ignored that is the problem.
 
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The Scarecrow

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2013
5,603
12,225
View attachment 134803

The word glory has everything to do with winning in this context (football).

You can look up Arsenal’s injury list, you can look up Liverpool’s from last season. Every team has a slight edge in terms of depth over us. The quality in drop off from the best 11 to the bench is staggering. That’s what I took into account when I said that. I don’t expect us or any other team to have the depth City has, but we can definitely replace players with younger, hungrier individuals with little financial outlay. All it takes is being smart financially and be willing to get the job done.

Nothing you’ve said is wrong though, and I agree with it too. We’ve had some rotten luck and in hindsight it is a bit idealistic to want us to be covered in this situation but the damage could’ve been mitigated by signing just another CB during the summer. Small margins.
1701270194875.png
We can go tit for tat on the definition, but my point was that glory and winning (titles), even in the context of football, aren't equivalent. Few would use the word glory in relation to Greece's Euro 2004 win for example.

I think it's unfair to compare us to Arsenal and Liverpool, as they are in completely different phases of their respective projects. And Arsenal arguably lost the title last season because Saliba got injured.

I also think that the Villa game showed that our depth is actually quite good. And even then we're in trouble in January, because Bissouma and Sarr are going to AFCON and Bentancur is out. But we can't build a squad based on AFCON. I hope we get a defender over the line quickly, though, hopefully even before the window opens, or at least before the United match.
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,675
78,524
View attachment 134803

The word glory has everything to do with winning in this context (football).

You can look up Arsenal’s injury list, you can look up Liverpool’s from last season. Every team has a slight edge in terms of depth over us. The quality in drop off from the best 11 to the bench is staggering. That’s what I took into account when I said that. I don’t expect us or any other team to have the depth City has, but we can definitely replace players with younger, hungrier individuals with little financial outlay. All it takes is being smart financially and be willing to get the job done.

Nothing you’ve said is wrong though, and I agree with it too. We’ve had some rotten luck and in hindsight it is a bit idealistic to want us to be covered in this situation but the damage could’ve been mitigated by signing just another CB during the summer. Small margins.
It's not only the quality but also the fit for Ange really. In terms of numbers we're pretty good. It's a bloody good job a lot of the players we've recruited have turned out to be a good fit for Ange. Players like Gil and Lo Celso (albeit still question marks whether good enough) fit the style of football under Ange but not Conte. On the flip side Sanchez didn't fit the possession game, Dier doesn't fit the tempo and high line, Hojbjerg doesn't fit the technical play against opposition press, Richarlison and Skipp don't really fit either. Find players who fit that and don't keep changing manager or changing style of play and we'll be good. Once we have a squad of players who all fit the system then it will just be a matter of upgrading more on individual quality down the line. At least with players who fit the style it allows the manager to imprint his methods fully into the squad without playing fullbacks at centre back etc. The top 3 have all had 5+ years under 1 manager. We haven't had a manager complete a full season in 5 years.
 

fecka

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2013
2,346
6,520
Eddie Howe started 17 yo Lewis Miley against PSG last night who didn't look at all out of place in an injury riddled side. You have a little more faith in these kids coming through. 2-3 years ago I would never have pushed for any of them to get minutes because they weren't up to it. The players I am talking about are stand outs in their age group and should be getting game time when half the squad is crocked and/or playing out of position. I'd also add if we had everybody fit I wouldn't be pushing it either. It's the fact that we are so light in personnel right now and they are still being ignored that is the problem.
I'm not saying Ange shouldn't. I'm saying that it's not as easy as just throwing them in because we're light in some positions due to injuries.

As I believe you said in an earlier post, Donley is doing everything right at the moment and he should get an opportunity soon but there is a well-documented risk playing youngsters without making sure you are giving them the tools to succeed. If things go tits up and they (or the fans) feel they are responsible they might never recover psychologically or the fans might never get off their back.
 

nicdic

Official SC Padre
Admin
May 8, 2005
41,857
25,920
Is all this fuss from Trix just because Skipp came on instead of Donley at the weekend? We played players out of position at centre back, but many saying that Dorrington and Phillips aren't ready yet. Skipp came on and we moved players around, I'd have like to have seen Donley instead, but it wasn't a crazy decision, and feels like lots of this is being massively blown out of proportion.
 
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