Are England Fans Racist?

[Nocando]

After what happened in Serbia it is easy to stand the moral high ground, as quite obviously we are light years ahead in terms of this issue. However it's also quite obvious there are racists within the club game and these could quite clearly translate to England games. Furthermore English fans do have history of inflammatory songs with those about WW2 and the IRA, which have nothing to do with Football, although obviously not racist.

It's interesting that the targets were the Ferdinand brothers though, as it does create an idea of what type of fan (and the club they support) that is to blame in this.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21974280

Alleged Ferdinand racist chants 'hearsay' - fan group

By David OrnsteinBBC Sport
Comments (165)
The Football Supporters' Federation has criticised anti-racism network Fare for reporting alleged racist chanting by England fans on the basis of "hearsay".
Fare filed a complaint to Fifa after an offensive song was said to be aimed at Rio Ferdinand and his brother Anton during the 8-0 victory over San Marino.
But Kevin Miles of the FSF told BBC Sport he heard no racist chanting.
Rio Ferdinand's England career
1997: Makes England debut v Cameroon at Wembley
1998: Named in squad for 1998 World Cup finals but does not play
2000: Left out of Euro 2000 squad
2002: Scores first England goal in 3-0 win over Denmark at 2002 World Cup
2004: Banned for eight months after missing a drugs test
2006: Plays five games at World Cup in Germany
2008: Captains England for first time in defeat by France in March - loses out to John Terry in battle for permanent skipper role
2010: Terry is stripped of captaincy and Ferdinand is given the armband but injury rules him out of the 2010 World Cup
2011: Makes his 81st appearance in a Euro 2012 qualifier against Switzerland
He said: "The idea that England fans should be reported for what is effectively hearsay is dangerous."
In a statement the Football Association said its security officers monitored the English supporters in the stadium and had access to recorded video footage.
It said: "While we have no reason to dispute the media reports, which are without doubt made for the right reasons of fighting racism, at this time we have not found any recorded evidence of the specific discriminatory chanting referring to Rio and Anton Ferdinand."
Fare did not have its own observers at the match and said it had pulled together evidence, including "media comment".
The Daily Mirror reported on Wednesday, 27 March that some England fans sang a song during the World Cup qualifier on Friday, 22 March suggesting the brothers be burned on a bonfire.
"It's sad that it's been done without any reference to the FA, or supporters organisations, from the point of view of trying to find a constructive solution to these things - if there's any evidence it's taken place," said FSF chief executive Miles.
Ferdinand was called into the England squad for the first time since 2011 for the double-header against San Marino and Montenegro, but withdrew stating he had a "pre-planned programme".
The 34-year-old then flew to Qatar to work as a TV pundit covering the San Marino game.
It has been claimed the alleged chanting had racist overtones as Anton Ferdinand was racially abused by former England captain John Terry.
"There was certainly a lot of antipathy towards Rio Ferdinand among the England fans in San Marino," added Miles.
"From my experience, it was not racially motivated - it was much more to do with the fact that he chose not to join the England squad and was then summarising for Al Jazeera.
Continue reading the main story
“There was certainly a lot of antipathy towards Rio Ferdinand among the England fans in San Marino. But from my experience it was not racially motivated at all”
Kevin MilesChief executive, Football Supporters Federation
"There were chants of expressive disapproval at that - perhaps not in the most tasteful way, but not to my opinion racially motivated."
When asked about the alleged bonfire song, Miles replied: "I didn't hear that at all. It certainly wasn't heard in my earshot.
"One of the difficulties in this is that the England support was split over two stands on opposite sides of the pitch and I can only say with absolute certainty what I heard. But I did not hear any chanting towards Rio Ferdinand or anybody else that was racially motivated."
The Daily Mirror also reported that England fans repeatedly chanted "Rio Ferdinand, we know what you are".
But Miles countered: "They were singing 'We know where you are' with reference to him being in Dubai."
He admitted there has been an issue with racism among England supporters in the past, but insisted this case was different.
"There was a general satisfaction with the performance of the replacement centre-halves and given that Chris Smalling and Joleon Lescott are black, that would suggest it wasn't a general racially motivated opposition towards black players in the England team", he said.
"There were particularly bad experiences when we played a friendly in France in 2000. I thought there was widespread racism among the England fans and we took that up as an organisation.
"However, we have to make sure this is approached in a constructive and proportionate way - and I don't think that's been done in this particular case."


Here's the alleged chant courtesy of that wonderful paper the mail...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...dinand-chants-England-fans-reported-FIFA.html

The chant was: 'Build a bonfire, build a bonfire, put Rio on the top, put Anton in the middle, then burn the f****** lot.'

 

[dontcallme]

Football fans are too large a group to be labelled as one particular thing.

The Ferdinand chants are probably by Chelsea fans upset by the Terry incident.

All countries have issues with racism but racism will always be a bigger problem in countries that don't deal with it properly.

 

[Nocando]

Football fans are too large a group to be labelled as one particular thing.

The Ferdinand chants are probably by Chelsea fans upset by the Terry incident.

All countries have issues with racism but racism will always be a bigger problem in countries that don't deal with it properly.

Yes youre quite right, bad title from me. Apologies (I just put it up there without much thought tbh). I should have put something along the lines of Are some England fans prone to racism too?

 

[Arnoldtoo]

What is it about that albeit unpleasant chant that is racist?

 

[Dinghy]

What is it about that albeit unpleasant chant that is racist?

It's cos the bruvvas are black, init... Must be racist.

 

[SugarRay]

How can abusing a player without any reference whatsoever to race be classed as racist abuse? Strange!

I hope it's not a lazy accusation. Player gets abuse. Said player is black. Automatically means the abuse is driven by the colour of the players skin...if that's the case its embarrassing and almost as bad as genuine racist abuse.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

It's cos the bruvvas are black, init... Must be racist.

Well, yes.

It does seem that sometimes people like to take a leap in order to see racism where it doesn't obviously exist. If it was purely on skin colour I can't help feeling that even their evidently tiny minds could have found some more obvious candidates.

 

[Nocando]

What is it about that albeit unpleasant chant that is racist?

I suppose it all comes down to the intentions. It's quite likely that the songs originated from Chelsea fans who hold grudges against the Ferdinand's, not necessarily because they are black (although could be) but because of what they 'did' to John Terry.

Admittedly it becomes a little bit more blurry I agree, but even if it's not because they are black, it still could be argued that is has racist undertones because they could in theory be supporting John Terry's actions, and therefore condoning racism in some peoples minds (bearing in mind he wasn't actually proven to be racist). It's all very subjective and I suppose that's ultimately what we have a legal system for, to get these people into a dock to justify their actions / intentions. There's often never a simple yes or no answer.

 

[mpickard2087]

One of my mates went to both games. Doesn't deny that Rio got some abuse, but says unless 'fuck off Rio Ferdinand' and 'Rio, your a twat' is now considered racist chanting then these racism claims are absolute bollocks.

 

[Gilzeanking]

I don't think you can extend the racism charge beyond chants that are racist .

The objectors to this chant are having to make a mental leap to call this racist . If a chant like this with no racism is racist then its looking like all black players cannot have chants against them .

For me this has gone too far . I find some chants unpleasant , but that is a separate topic .

 

[Azazello]

The title of the thread is ridiculous.

Some might be, most won't be.

 

[gilzeantheking]

What is it about that albeit unpleasant chant that is racist?

We used to sing that at primary school 50 years ago about the teachers and prefects. It wasn't regarded as anything untoward and shouldn't be now IMHO.

 

[Nocando]

The title of the thread is ridiculous.

Some might be, most won't be.

I know that wasn't my intention (as I said later on in the thread) and I didn't intend the discussion to be about the title.

Mods can it be changed to something that isn't so general?

 

[Arnoldtoo]

We used to sing that at primary school 50 years ago about the teachers and prefects. It wasn't regarded as anything untoward and shouldn't be now IMHO.

"... and burn the fucking lot" wasn't regarded as anything untoward?

That must have been some tough primary school!

 

[gilzeantheking]

"... and burn the fucking lot" wasn't regarded as anything untoward?

That must have been some tough primary school!

No it wasn 't

 

[chrissivad]

What is it about that albeit unpleasant chant that is racist?

It was a stupid chant what ever it was.

The only think i have read that people could make it out to be racist is if they talk about the KKK and burning down houses and anyone inside of them.

so they were chanting burn them both as they are black, and thats not what why it was sung.

 

[riggi]

'One german bomber in the air' is a fun song to sing in a packed out bar.

Cant see anything racist about the rio thing. Smells of Pompey away with good ol solomon.

 

[Dinghy]

It's similar to the linking of the hanging taunt at Campbell to lynchings in America rather than the hanging of Judas...

 

[Nocando]

It's similar to the linking of the hanging taunt at Campbell to lynchings in America rather than the hanging of Judas...

I always assumed the song was about Sol hanging himself because he had gone mad after getting HIV. I suppose we'll probably never know the truth of the song with many people singing it with different reasons and intentions.

I was going to mention the Sol chants but thought they linked both of the threads I posted too much, so didn't in order to keep both discussions separate (i.e the idea of coming out or not coming out and the discussion about whether England can rightly take the moral high ground when it comes to racism / and whether these chants been taken out of context). I also think it's ground that has been covered numerous times before, so again wanted to avoid that.

However the Sol chants were perceived as both racist and homophobic (Campbell loves Barrymore being another) and at the time Matt Lucas (an Arsenal fan) suggested the so called homophobic chants against Brighton (we can see you holding hands) were more 'banter' and not as serious as the supposed homophobic chants aimed at Campbell.

In the early days it seemed quite amusing calling Campbell gay and singing songs about it, but slowly they did get out of hand to the point when it crossed the line from banter to pretty offensive (whether you saw those chants as homophobic or not). I suppose with a song like Campbell loves Barrymore you could argue its banter but at the same time argue its both offensive and homophobic. It all boils down to individual intentions I think, which can be difficult to prove either way.

Going back to the England chants I wonder if these will get taken further to see how close to the line they go. Or whether it will be brushed aside or action will be taken without actually looking too deeply into the case.

 

[MattyP]

I've been to a number of away games with England.

I've not witnessed anything of a racist nature from England fans. The same cannot be said of some of the people in the countries visited, who on occasion, did racially abuse the chap I was with on account of the colour of his skin.