ENIC...

[Deleted member 27995]

Pretty clear the majority of youth team players do get sold or released big man! Smart thing would be to loan them first though have some common sense there ?! Loan see if they cut it in the championship or prem then review the situation that’s usually how it goes ?

Why bother though? Mourinho has seen them in the under 23's ... ? Still, we can't be excited about them, you said as much in your opening post.

Can't keep up, you move the goal posts faster than Levy ...

Edit: Big man ?

 

[[email protected]]

That was their initial 29% shareholding. They have since bought further shares (from Sugar and others) and have invested into the club by way of rights issues. I would guess that their overall outlay on Spurs is now in the region of £100m for an 85-90% shareholding. Which represents a mighty fine investment from their perspective, given that they now value the club at north of £1.5b.

They won't be in any hurry to sell cheap, though. My guess is that they still see room for greater capital appreciation.

Thanks for these details mate. You appear to be really well informed. Are these figures in the public domain, or do you perhaps work for ENIC? And when you say you expect ENIC to stick around until they've maximised potential profit, how do you think that "capital appreciation" will be realised? Naming right? The completion of the 3rd phase of the NPD and sale of that housing? A better NFL deal? What are your thoughts?

 

[AberdeenYid]

Basically the stadium project, as lovely as it is, has hampered us for the next decade at least.

We're broke and in debt. I suspect there's a strategy to bringing in players like Nkoudou/Janssen - it means Kane will eventually have had enough and demand to leave - which is £150m to reinvest right there. And the cycle starts again.

You can't go improving the team and risk missing out on a pure £150m return.

Any chance you can go into more depth on what this strategy is please? Looks like you are saying we are buying shite players so are forced to sell a great player. To what end?

 

[daryl hannah]

Any chance you can go into more depth on what this strategy is please? Looks like you are saying we are buying shite players so are forced to sell a great player. To what end?

ask DL - Previously when we've been in a position to invest from a position of strength, what happened?

I'm being facetious, but then again, as strategies go, it's one that would make sense for the chairman because it means there's money magic'd up to invest in the team ...selling our most valuable asset at his peak. Why wouldn't you? I mean you'd be mad not to... Again, being facetious.

 

[AberdeenYid]

ask DL - Previously when we've been in a position to invest from a position of strength, what happened?

I'm being facetious, but then again, as strategies go, it's one that would make sense for the chairman because it means there's money magic'd up to invest in the team ...selling our most valuable asset at his peak. Why wouldn't you? I mean you'd be mad not to... Again, being facetious.

Ah ok, so you don’t believe that’s actually our strategy? That’s fair enough.

Didn’t think it made much sense.

 

[Albertbarich]

A number of mistakes were made and I think this illustrates exactly why not having a DoF and an aligned Performance Analysis and Management structure has been so destructive.

Our lack of DoF has handed immense power to both Levy and Poch and both have been found wanting. Poch has a blind spot (as all managers do) and loves players that are technically neat and tidy (Lamela, Lo Celso) and will prefer that over players with more pace, power and athletic drive (Bruno Fernandes). In this respect, in addition to countryman loyalty, it was little surprise that Lo Celso was preferred over Fernandes.

This is where a DoF proves his/her worth. They design and align a footballing philosophy and build a structure that is aligned to it throughout the club. This makes transfer to and transitions within the club as seamless as possible. So in the Lo Celso vs Fernandes example, the DoF would be choosing based on the long term philosophy of the club rather than the short term aims of the manager.

Someone earlier stated that "Levy was never going to buy 3 midfielders in one window....". I think this is exactly where the problem lies. Levy's job is to provide the funds for the footballing operations and ensure that this is delivered in the most optimal and risk-managed way possible.. Thats it...nothing more. He does not have the skill set to scout and analyse players, he's the Chairman. Moreover, we went two windows without buying a single player and hence it would always be likely that we would need a "bumper" window to rebalance the squad.

A DoF is imperative, not just because of Levy, but also to avoid the whims of managers and build a sustainable future for the club on the field to match the significant success we've had on the commercial side.

I agree totally but a word of caution.

Remember comolli? I do and whilst I sadly can't recall the exact circumstances we had very very similar complaints when he was here. We were always one or two players short, like obviously short.

Remember them buying Darren bent when we didn't need him? I swear that summer everyone was desperate for a ball winning midfielder.

When comolli went to Liverpool I remember one of their fans asking how good he was and I couldn't answer as the extra man seemed to muddy the waters. Our issues with transfers have been there with or without a dof.

In an ideal world levy would set a budget and the dof and head coach would work within that but in truth we know levy will still want to be involved and still value sell on value more than the teams needs.

 

[mpickard2087]

We go through this every couple of years it feels like, they're is a reason some call Levy 'Teflon'.

Our transfer policy has constantly let us down, or more to the point let the head coach/manager down.

But once again, this completely overeggs the pudding and puts it all on Levy when it's rather more nuanced and often others who have to share or take the blame.

Remember Redknapp? We went into one January window well in the title race. Rumour has it he wanted Tevez to push us over the line. He got Saha and Nelson. We didn't win the title funnily enough.

I have never got this one to be honest. Tevez iirc was a wild rumour we all quickly shot down as Adebayor was already on loan from City making that avenue impossible and the guy was AWOL and seemingly had enough of City, and English football, plus was on about a trillion pounds a week. Whatever gets claimed and counter-claimed in hindsight, knowing how they operate, I wonder who went for good old boys Saha and Nelsen... Levy or Redknapp? I guess 'Arry was foisted with the veteran short-term likes of Steven Pienaar, William Gallas, Eidur Gudjohnsen, Brad Friedel, Carlo Cudicini, Scott Parker (good, but broke after a year) etc. too....

Who could forget the summer he sold robbie Keane and dimitar berbatov and replaced them with roman pavleyuchenko and faster campbell. The manager who he had brought in at great expense some few month's earlier didnt last long that season. Another failed appointment.

Part of the problem here was that fans were accustomed to formations with two strikers and having four/five strikers in the squad. With Ramos we were going to be using one up top and we had two £15m plus strikers (Bent and Pav) and a promising youngster to reflect this. Pav did have a good Euro 2008 tbf to him, I think the main problem was we couldn't get the other half of the duo, Arshavin, out of Zenit at the time despite a lot of trying. The Campbell deal structure wasn't ideal, no arguments, and losing both Keane and Berbatov at the same time was probably too much of a shock to withstand. But Ramos/Comolli were 'backed' and allowed to shape the squad in their image even if it meant taking a wrecking ball to it and causing a lot of the disruption and poor results. We did get Bale and Modric out of it though I guess...

As for the managerial change itself - Jol, doing a decent job and popularity with the fans or not, was a sneaky little fucker who by all accounts had courted more than one other job and that damaged his position at the club. The likes of Kemsley and Comolli struck up a rapport with Ramos - double UEFA Cup winner and doing great work building one of the best teams in Europe at Sevilla - and persuaded him to make the change. All those left the club when it didn't work out.

And then there is poch. Remember when he had to turn eric dier into a defensive midfielder ? The early signs were there.

Well according to Dier recently it is Poch who kept playing him there. I'm not sure that one can be blamed on Levy. And even if we took that as true, wouldn't explain how funds were then made available for Wanyama, Sissoko etc. and he was still get being deployed there.

The point for that long overly emotional paragraph though is that finally levy found his man . He found the guy who got him into the cash cow that is the champions league and he still screwed him on transfers.

I'm going to go back to a point I made the other day. People don't like to hear it, but Poch demanded and to great song and dance from his and the club PR machines got his wish to remove the DOF, assume more responsibilities, and get 'promotion' from Head Coach to Manager. He was now responsible not just for coaching and preparing the team for matches but to oversee every aspect - recruitment/scouting, medical team, academy stuff, etc. Especially so with Levy working 24/7 on the stadium. Every time I have made this point people get tetchy about it but this is the reality of it. He got what he wanted, and predictably it was too big for one man (and I think is part of the reason why he ran out steam in the coaching aspect). I think most of the problem in recent seasons has been just not having the structure in place to identify players, having an A, B, C etc. list of targets, and getting into a muddle and having to fall back on limited channels such as Levy getting the odd recommendation from his advisors, or PSG (wonder who has links to them....) bargain cast offs, or young Argentine randoms.

Poch has got to take his fair share of culpability here, he wanted changes, more responsibility, and clearly couldn't hack running the whole thing (which is why this doesn't happen at most clubs these days...). I personally think Levy was bonkers to give him or any first team coach the keys to the castle like that, so it's worthy of criticism, but then as I also have said plenty of times. I'm sure everyone would have been totally cool if it had come out that Poch had asked to be able to have more control, and Levy said no.... Wouldn't we, lads?


I am not saying Levy never makes mistakes or has never got things wrong. At the moment it needs him to get a grip and put in place a much better structure and framework for running the club and identifying transfer targets because that's been lost in the last couple of years. There are also some aspects that maybe need to change - eg. timing of most deals and getting them done sooner, and having a clearer set of options set in stone and decisively chosen. But some, a lot even, of what I see written and said in frustration is clearly bollocks. Stuff like he has never given up control or put others in place to manage the club and allowed them to do just that, and has never given managers what they wanted or agreed to their transfer policies as a whole or to their wishes as to how the club should operate. And that it is all on him and managers can be absolved of all blame for decisions that were made. It's just not the case.

 

[JME-9]

I’d say shit will hit the fan when Kane gets sold but then some of our strange fan base would be behind the sale lol

 

[Deleted member 27995]

I’d say shit will hit the fan when Kane gets sold but then some of our strange fan base would be behind the sale lol

Not really, it'd be business considering how we find our standing in the game right now. Anyone with a shred of sense can see why he might want to leave thus him being sold ...

What's with all the pot stirring? You sound like a child let loose on the internet this afternoon.

 

[JME-9]

Not really, it'd be business considering how we find our standing in the game right now. Anyone with a shred of sense can see why he might want to leave thus him being sold ...

What's with all the pot stirring? You sound like a child let loose on the internet this afternoon.

one of the fans who are exactly the problem ! The whole point is levy and ENIC should be investing enough in the team to show Kane he doesn’t need to leave! They however don’t so no doubt he will want to leave and they will sell him setting us even further back ?! It’s not about agreeing that he should want to leave it’s about ENIC and levy investing and making the team competitive to the level he doesn’t need to leave !

 

[he is you know!]

I’d say shit will hit the fan when Kane gets sold but then some of our strange fan base would be behind the sale lol

Well that won't be this or next year due to him having 4 more years on his contract, Levy already saying no big player will be sold and anyone abroad having the money to buy him.

 

[yankspurs]

I’d say shit will hit the fan when Kane gets sold but then some of our strange fan base would be behind the sale lol

Our fan base was firmly behind and defended Levy to the hilt when he self imposed a transfer ban on us for no reason other than we were too good. They’ll defend that man even if he bankrupts us.

 

[emiley heskey]

If I am not wrong, Poch wanted Morgan Schneiderlin but he didn't get him and there was no DM in our squad. So poch turned Eric Dier to defensive Midfielder ..

 

[yankspurs]

Well that won't be this or next year due to him having 4 more years on his contract, Levy already saying no big player will be sold and anyone abroad having the money to buy him.

He’ll be sold next year.

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

[QUOTE="mpickard2087, post: 6856819, member: 15214"
But once again, this completely overeggs the pudding and puts it all on Levy when it's rather more nuanced and often others who have to share or take the blame.



I have never got this one to be honest. Tevez iirc was a wild rumour we all quickly shot down as Adebayor was already on loan from City making that avenue impossible and the guy was AWOL and seemingly had enough of City, and English football, plus was on about a trillion pounds a week. Whatever gets claimed and counter-claimed in hindsight, knowing how they operate, I wonder who went for good old boys Saha and Nelsen... Levy or Redknapp? I guess 'Arry was foisted with the veteran short-term likes of Steven Pienaar, William Gallas, Eidur Gudjohnsen, Brad Friedel, Carlo Cudicini, Scott Parker (good, but broke after a year) etc. too....



Part of the problem here was that fans were accustomed to formations with two strikers and having four/five strikers in the squad. With Ramos we were going to be using one up top and we had two £15m plus strikers (Bent and Pav) and a promising youngster to reflect this. Pav did have a good Euro 2008 tbf to him, I think the main problem was we couldn't get the other half of the duo, Arshavin, out of Zenit at the time despite a lot of trying. The Campbell deal structure wasn't ideal, no arguments, and losing both Keane and Berbatov at the same time was probably too much of a shock to withstand. But Ramos/Comolli were 'backed' and allowed to shape the squad in their image even if it meant taking a wrecking ball to it and causing a lot of the disruption and poor results. We did get Bale and Modric out of it though I guess...

As for the managerial change itself - Jol, doing a decent job and popularity with the fans or not, was a sneaky little fucker who by all accounts had courted more than one other job and that damaged his position at the club. The likes of Kemsley and Comolli struck up a rapport with Ramos - double UEFA Cup winner and doing great work building one of the best teams in Europe at Sevilla - and persuaded him to make the change. All those left the club when it didn't work out.



Well according to Dier recently it is Poch who kept playing him there. I'm not sure that one can be blamed on Levy. And even if we took that as true, wouldn't explain how funds were then made available for Wanyama, Sissoko etc. and he was still get being deployed there.



I'm going to go back to a point I made the other day. People don't like to hear it, but Poch demanded and to great song and dance from his and the club PR machines got his wish to remove the DOF, assume more responsibilities, and get 'promotion' from Head Coach to Manager. He was now responsible not just for coaching and preparing the team for matches but to oversee every aspect - recruitment/scouting, medical team, academy stuff, etc. Especially so with Levy working 24/7 on the stadium. Every time I have made this point people get tetchy about it but this is the reality of it. He got what he wanted, and predictably it was too big for one man (and I think is part of the reason why he ran out steam in the coaching aspect). I think most of the problem in recent seasons has been just not having the structure in place to identify players, having an A, B, C etc. list of targets, and getting into a muddle and having to fall back on limited channels such as Levy getting the odd recommendation from his advisors, or PSG (wonder who has links to them....) bargain cast offs, or young Argentine randoms.

Poch has got to take his fair share of culpability here, he wanted changes, more responsibility, and clearly couldn't hack running the whole thing (which is why this doesn't happen at most clubs these days...). I personally think Levy was bonkers to give him or any first team coach the keys to the castle like that, so it's worthy of criticism, but then as I also have said plenty of times. I'm sure everyone would have been totally cool if it had come out that Poch had asked to be able to have more control, and Levy said no.... Wouldn't we, lads?


I am not saying Levy never makes mistakes or has never got things wrong. At the moment it needs him to get a grip and put in place a much better structure and framework for running the club and identifying transfer targets because that's been lost in the last couple of years. There are also some aspects that maybe need to change - eg. timing of most deals and getting them done sooner, and having a clearer set of options set in stone and decisively chosen. But some, a lot even, of what I see written and said in frustration is clearly bollocks. Stuff like he has never given up control or put others in place to manage the club and allowed them to do just that, and has never given managers what they wanted or agreed to their transfer policies as a whole or to their wishes as to how the club should operate. And that it is all on him and managers can be absolved of all blame for decisions that were made. It's just not the case.
[/QUOTE]

That’s all well and good and there is shades of grey obviously but the one constant is levy and at the end of the day the buck stops with him and Lewis.[/QUOTE]

 

[Deleted member 27995]

one of the fans who are exactly the problem ! The whole point is levy and ENIC should be investing enough in the team to show Kane he doesn’t need to leave! They however don’t so no doubt he will want to leave and they will sell him setting us even further back ?! It’s not about agreeing that he should want to leave it’s about ENIC and levy investing and making the team competitive to the level he doesn’t need to leave !

Levy has never sold a player that didn't want to leave.

Take it to the Kane thread.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Our fan base was firmly behind and defended Levy to the hilt when he self imposed a transfer ban on us for no reason other than we were too good. They’ll defend that man even if he bankrupts us.

Not every one was, but you do love hyperbole, we're coming into your best season, aren't we footballing wise?

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

Levy has never sold a player that didn't want to leave.

Take it to the Kane thread.

Did you read his post? it not about whether he wants to leave, it’s about creating a situation where it is less likely to want to leave... if we’re never winning things then of course you would expect your best players would want to leave, i think most would agree kane’s best chance at success now is to leave, it didn’t have to be that way... so when kane does leave you can say ‘well he wanted to leave’ or you can ask ‘why did he want to leave?’

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Did you read his post? it not about whether he wants to leave, it’s about creating a situation where it is less likely to want to leave... if we’re never winning things then of course you would expect your best players would want to leave, i think most would agree kane’s best chance at success now is to leave, it didn’t have to be that way... so when kane does leave you can say ‘well he wanted to leave’ or you can ask ‘why did he want to leave?’

Ah I see. New angle? Just stick with the lack of investment line, using Kane as another spoon to stir the pot doesn't make much difference. I heard similar when Bale left.

If the guy leaves, like Bale before him, we'll have to find a way to carry on.

I'm not another one of those fans, I've heard it all before. Using players as a way to beat a dead horse isn't new and still won't change the fact people don't like the owners.

Finishing outside the top ten may have more effect/affect on the fans than talking about something (Kane) that people have been floating since Poch was in charge.

 

[JME-9]

Well that won't be this or next year due to him having 4 more years on his contract, Levy already saying no big player will be sold and anyone abroad having the money to buy him.

Be gone next summer if things don’t improve