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Financial Fair Play (general thread)

SirHarryHotspur

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Aug 9, 2017
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Surely Leicester should get a points deduction just for failing to submit their accounts on time ?
You would think so and so far the independent commission has gone for points deductions as the only punishment that the clubs understand .
The PL rulebook at the moment has only one set punishment which is for insolvency which is a 9 points deduction so the commission have the leeway to impose whatever they think fit , not sure if there should be set guidelines for each level of rule breaking or not.
 

SirHarryHotspur

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Aug 9, 2017
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Reckon we are now going for the hat trick, we were named in the Everton PL case with Richy, named in the Forest PL case with Brennan , will we score again in the Leicester PL case with Madders
 

ukdy

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Jan 11, 2007
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The EFL can't enact a PL punishment so they'll get it next season if they go up
I think they can, just not fast track immediately in the same season. The EFL and PL have used an arrangement in the past to pass on sanctions for clubs, but the fast track rules implemented this season were after Leicester were relegated.

So they either get promoted and get the penalty, or stay where they are and get it. But it won't be in the next few weeks. Likely firmed up in the summer.

But they now have a transfer embargo too. Shambles of a club.
 

brasil_spur

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Aug 25, 2006
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Reckon we are now going for the hat trick, we were named in the Everton PL case with Richy, named in the Forest PL case with Brennan , will we score again in the Leicester PL case with Madders
All part of Levy’s master plan for negotiations this summer: “take my first offer or you’ll end up getting points deducted like Everton & Forest”. 😉
 

whitechina

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Dec 27, 2012
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I just don't understand why City and Chelsea have not been pulled up yet. City have 115 cases FFS!
$$$
 

SirHarryHotspur

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Aug 9, 2017
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I just don't understand why City and Chelsea have not been pulled up yet. City have 115 cases FFS!
$$$
It took the PL nearly five years to get together the evidence to charge City. It's going to take a long time for the Independent Commission to sift through the evidence to decide whether City are guilty or not, many will say we know they are guilty but the commission as in a court of law have to be satisfied that the evidence proves that beyond doubt.

PS beyond doubt is incorrect , civil law applies to evidence "balance of probabilities"
 
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easley91

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Jan 27, 2011
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I just don't understand why City and Chelsea have not been pulled up yet. City have 115 cases FFS!
$$$
You answered your own question. It's far more complex than what Everton and Forest have been charged for.

I don't think Chelsea have been formally charged have they?
 

SirHarryHotspur

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Aug 9, 2017
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Even if Chelsea are charged I would be surprised if they were given a points deduction as the offences were committed by previous owners. The independent commissions are manned by lawyers and I sure there will be a precedent somewhere in English Law where a current owner of a business cannot be held totally responsible for the actions of a previous owner.
UEFA have already agreed and fined Chelsea for the actions of Abramovitch, expecting the same if Chelsea are charged by the PL.


PS We have precedent , see below, and it involves Spurs.
 
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Trix

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Jul 29, 2004
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Even if Chelsea are charged I would be surprised if they were given a points deduction as the offences were committed by previous owners. The independent commissions are manned by lawyers and I sure there will be a precedent somewhere in English Law where a current owner of a business cannot be held totally responsible for the actions of a previous owner.
UEFA have already agreed and fined Chelsea for the actions of Abramovitch, expecting the same if Chelsea are charged by the PL.
If this were a thing, every time a company did something shady and was facing consequences you'd see a change of ownership and they'd all just walk away as if nothing happened.
 
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Thenewcat

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Aug 8, 2019
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Even if Chelsea are charged I would be surprised if they were given a points deduction as the offences were committed by previous owners. The independent commissions are manned by lawyers and I sure there will be a precedent somewhere in English Law where a current owner of a business cannot be held totally responsible for the actions of a previous owner.
UEFA have already agreed and fined Chelsea for the actions of Abramovitch, expecting the same if Chelsea are charged by the PL.
Up to you to do your due diligence when making the purchase. Personal liability for directors etc is different, but corporate offences survive a change of ownership and quite rightly so. As trix says above, otherwise companies would change owners every time they were accused of wrongdoing.

If Boehly and co try that sort of defence they would be laughed out of court. The whole reason the club was available to buy was because the previous owner operated it with blood money. The fact that they have dug themselves into a massive FFP hole since they took over doesn’t exactly scream financial competence does it?
 

SirHarryHotspur

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Aug 9, 2017
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The owners won't be held responsible, the company is a different story altogether. If this were a thing, every time a company did something shady and was facing consequences you'd see a change of ownership.
That's true but not sure Chelsea will be punished in the way that most people want to see.
We have a precedent with Spurs, points and cup ban overturned , fine was later increased to £1.5 million. If I am the Chelsea lawyers this is the precedent I would use for improper dealings by previous owners.

As punishment for financial irregularities committed under the club's previous owners during the 1980s, they were fined £600,000 and were docked 12 league points as well as being banned from the 1994-95 FA Cup.
 
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Thenewcat

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It took the PL nearly five years to get together the evidence to charge City. It's going to take a long time for the Independent Commission to sift through the evidence to decide whether City are guilty or not, many will say we know they are guilty but the commission as in a court of law have to be satisfied that the evidence proves that beyond doubt.
This isn’t true, beyond reasonable doubt is a criminal law standard, civil courts for instance have a lower standard (balance of probabilities) for instance. FFP rules actually require clubs to prove sponsorship deals are fair commercial value, not sure what the burden of proof is for losses
 

SirHarryHotspur

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Aug 9, 2017
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This isn’t true, beyond reasonable doubt is a criminal law standard, civil courts for instance have a lower standard (balance of probabilities) for instance. FFP rules actually require clubs to prove sponsorship deals are fair commercial value, not sure what the burden of proof is for losses
Yes criminal and civil law are on different levels but the commission will still need a degree of proof to find City guilty, a piece from the UEFA Man City CAS tribunal held under Swiss Law.

The panel is not comfortably satisfied that MCFC disguised equity funding from HHSM and/or ADUG as sponsorship contributions from Etihad.
 

Thenewcat

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Aug 8, 2019
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Yes criminal and civil law are on different levels but the commission will still need a degree of proof to find City guilty, a piece from the UEFA Man City CAS tribunal held under Swiss Law.

The panel is not comfortably satisfied that MCFC disguised equity funding from HHSM and/or ADUG as sponsorship contributions from Etihad.
2 things - 1) you said ‘beyond doubt’ which is very different to ‘comfortably satisfied’ in the ruling you are quoting. 2) the premier league has wider discretion than uefa and different burdens of proof. Indeed uefa are no longer able to investigate city’s alleged offences due to statute of limitations whereas the PL can go back as far as it likes.
 
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