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IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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Random question (apologies if it's already been asked/answered) but why does the Toulon U23 tournament have different age groups playing?

Eng U21
Fra U20
Jpn U23

I don't have a clue. I thought ti was meant to be u20s but it seems nations just bring whatever they want
 

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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Great from Rashford.

I wish other clubs' reactions were, lets give our own a chance and see if they can do the same, rather than lets buy Rashford he must be special. However, most fans and clubs will think the latter. It's crazy what injuries can do for a player
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
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The situation is getting worse with the top clubs not giving their players a chance. Marcus Rashford, a player who was far behind Harrison let alone Solanke has overtaken one of the best group of young players and in the england first team, it literally is madness

The whole Rashford thing just makes you wonder how many other players are sitting in premier youth teams not getting a chance when they are perfectly good enough.

What's even stranger is that I haven't seen the media ask that question once and that's with England naming their euros squad next week when half the players in it are poor. I suspect that will happen once we go out of the competition early doors.
 

beats1

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Feb 22, 2010
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The whole Rashford thing just makes you wonder how many other players are sitting in premier youth teams not getting a chance when they are perfectly good enough.

What's even stranger is that I haven't seen the media ask that question once and that's with England naming their euros squad next week when half the players in it are poor. I suspect that will happen once we go out of the competition early doors.
That 1997 group is one of the most talented I have seen and at international level Rashford has only 2 appearances at U18(0 at U17 and 0 at U19, worth noting these two age groups are championship groups and U18's is a bye year)

As for record at u21 level stands like this compared to his peers:
Rashford - 8 apps 1 goal, 1 goal every 295 mins
Boadu(former spurs player at man city) - 2 apps 0 goals -------------- England U17 4 apps 4 goals
Harrison - 20 apps 10 goals, 1 goal every 159 mins
Grant ----- no u21 experience ---------------------------------------------- championship charlton - 22 apps 1 goal, 1 goal every 910mins
Abraham - 29 apps 13 goals, 1 goal every 149mins ----------------- 2 PL apps
Solanke - 19 apps 13 goals, 1 goal every 111 mins ------------------ Eredivisie 25 apps 7 goals, 1 goal every 258 mins
Armstrong - 25 apps 17 goals, 1 goal every 130mins --------------- League 1 Coventry - 40 apps 20 goals, 1 goal every 172 mins

Here you have a strong group of players, its worth noting that Harrison spent a lot of time at AM last season before getting moved up slowly. However he has effectively overtaken one of the strongest groups of England strikers
 

spursfan77

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Aug 13, 2005
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That 1997 group is one of the most talented I have seen and at international level Rashford has only 2 appearances at U18(0 at U17 and 0 at U19, worth noting these two age groups are championship groups and U18's is a bye year)

As for record at u21 level stands like this compared to his peers:
Rashford - 8 apps 1 goal, 1 goal every 295 mins
Boadu(former spurs player at man city) - 2 apps 0 goals -------------- England U17 4 apps 4 goals
Harrison - 20 apps 10 goals, 1 goal every 159 mins
Grant ----- no u21 experience ---------------------------------------------- championship charlton - 22 apps 1 goal, 1 goal every 910mins
Abraham - 29 apps 13 goals, 1 goal every 149mins ----------------- 2 PL apps
Solanke - 19 apps 13 goals, 1 goal every 111 mins ------------------ Eredivisie 25 apps 7 goals, 1 goal every 258 mins
Armstrong - 25 apps 17 goals, 1 goal every 130mins --------------- League 1 Coventry - 40 apps 20 goals, 1 goal every 172 mins

Here you have a strong group of players, its worth noting that Harrison spent a lot of time at AM last season before getting moved up slowly. However he has effectively overtaken one of the strongest groups of England strikers

Out of all of them the most likely to get a chance is Armstrong at Newcastle and that's in the championship. Unless Chelsea loan out their strikers to some premier league teams, which would be good for England.
 

aliyid

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Dec 28, 2004
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So looks like Eng won the Toulon tournament for first time in 22yrs (y)

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36410296

Personal highlight of the write up is where the BBC clearly have no idea that Lewis Baker also plays for Chelsea :bag:

England Under-21s won the Toulon Tournament for the first time since 1994 after beating hosts France 2-1 in the final on Sunday.

Gareth Southgate's side went ahead in Avignon through Lewis Baker's looping header after eight minutes, his fourth goal of the tournament.

Chelsea's Ruben Loftus-Cheek then doubled the lead with a composed finish from 15 yards.
 

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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Chelsea players were generally the standout throughout the tournament People like to undermine them by saying they're big which they are, but they'er excellent players. Was essentially a club team with Baker, Swift, RLC, Chalobah and Palmer that won this tournament and beat a generally good France team.

Barely any top league club appearances between em but still show they are more than talented enough, than most players with a lot of league appearances, but many will still doubt them. They won't get their chance then when they're 23/24 and haven't had their chance people will say they were never good enough

Got to say though @IGSpur I feel a little unworthy, my knowledge and contribution pales compared to you and some of the others.

But you're interest and enthusiasm for youth helped inspire it, plus your views and discussion surrounding youth contribute greatly. Will change the name to something more approrpaite now though
 

beats1

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Feb 22, 2010
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So looks like Eng won the Toulon tournament for first time in 22yrs (y)

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36410296

Personal highlight of the write up is where the BBC clearly have no idea that Lewis Baker also plays for Chelsea :bag:
It is once again worth noting that England U21's were playing France U20

The U20's usually being the age group that aren't good enough for the U21's and too old for the U19's

Its worth noting that youth football works like this once they turn 16 and leave the U16's age group. For hypothetical reasons lets talk about KWP who is part of the 1997 age group

Year 1: England U17 - Qualify for the Euro U17 championship - Compete in Euro U17 championship(which if you do well you to the world cup)

Year 2: England U18 - They compete in the U17 world cup if they qualified, during the season then its an off season

Year 3(normally first year as a pro): England U19 - Qualify for Euro U19's during season - Compete in Euro U19's at the end of the season (which if you do well you go to the world cup)

Year 4: Now is a question mark over the player if they aren't good they will go to the U20's if they are they will go to the U21's and start with qualifying.

There is one occasion isn't true. Thats if they have qualified for the World U20 cup, which then you send your best to that(those of whom qualify) and then they still can qualify for the next U21's
 

beats1

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Feb 22, 2010
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Chelsea players were generally the standout throughout the tournament People like to undermine them by saying they're big which they are, but they'er excellent players. Was essentially a club team with Baker, Swift, RLC, Chalobah and Palmer that won this tournament and beat a generally good France team.

Barely any top league club appearances between em but still show they are more than talented enough, than most players with a lot of league appearances, but many will still doubt them. They won't get their chance then when they're 23/24 and haven't had their chance people will say they were never good enough
Im sorry mate I cant agree. They were the french U20 team, which is essentially a team of players who aren't good enough to make the U21's yet.

The france U21 team is a totally different kettle of fish, it includes Laporte, Dembele, Rabiot, Mendy and etc.

Thats not including Coman and Zouma both of whom have started for the U21's this season but then been promoted.

I agree with everything else though and that the Chelsea players were good but Chalobah though shouldn't be selected imo. Though the rest should leave for their career sake if they don't get selected this season
 

Goldman

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Jul 14, 2004
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So should be a decent final, 2-1 England would be my prediction.

Wish I had a cheeky bet on it! I missed most of the first half as I was out. The second half was pretty dull, but a professional performance I suppose.
 

Cornpattbuck

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Jul 23, 2013
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Im sorry mate I cant agree. They were the french U20 team, which is essentially a team of players who aren't good enough to make the U21's yet.

The france U21 team is a totally different kettle of fish, it includes Laporte, Dembele, Rabiot, Mendy and etc.

Thats not including Coman and Zouma both of whom have started for the U21's this season but then been promoted.

I agree with everything else though and that the Chelsea players were good but Chalobah though shouldn't be selected imo. Though the rest should leave for their career sake if they don't get selected this season

I was thinking the same myself. Always thought of Toulon as an u-20 tournament, and yet quite a few of our squad are well on their way to 22, unless I'm much mistaken.
 

beats1

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Feb 22, 2010
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I was thinking the same myself. Always thought of Toulon as an u-20 tournament, and yet quite a few of our squad are well on their way to 22, unless I'm much mistaken.
It is a u20 tournament but I think they made a couple of exceptions this year, its why I cant give any credit to the squad this should be a U20 tournament

Its used by a lot of teams because there is nothing for U20 teams
 

hellava_tough

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Apr 21, 2005
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Don't know if it's been discussed in this thread, but I have often wondered how well a club would do if it didn't rely on transfers, but instead promoted a youth player when a senior player left.

I suspect that there's a lot of raw talent in the youth set-ups of clubs, but it's the motivation and psychological strength of young players that needs to be nurtured, and clubs might not have the systems in place to do so particularly well.

There's also the fact that managers in the modern era rarely get more than 18 months to prove themselves, so they usually go with a 'finished product' senior player, brought in, rather than slowly developing a number of young players over time.
 

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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Im sorry mate I cant agree. They were the french U20 team, which is essentially a team of players who aren't good enough to make the U21's yet.

The france U21 team is a totally different kettle of fish, it includes Laporte, Dembele, Rabiot, Mendy and etc.

Thats not including Coman and Zouma both of whom have started for the U21's this season but then been promoted.

I agree with everything else though and that the Chelsea players were good but Chalobah though shouldn't be selected imo. Though the rest should leave for their career sake if they don't get selected this season

Guess I was being very general in that I assume ant France international team will be decent. I know it's not comparable to their u21s but I wouldn't expect them to be slouches though.

Maybe we entered the Toulon with an older team as they don't think this u21 group can compete with the best yet until the 19s start coming by through so it's a way to get competition and try out players for future qualifiers. Shame the most experienced in this group are least talented.

Agree about Chalobah we knows what he brings but seems like England are trying to revive his career themselves.

Year 4: Now is a question mark over the player if they aren't good they will go to the U20's if they are they will go to the U21's and start with qualifying.

I very much agree with this however there are exceptions which are quite rare. Perfect example is Winks. He is good enough for u21 football however he has played essentially zero amount of professional football so it is hard to justify his inclusion into the u21s but he can't not be selected for England at all. At that age group players should be expecting to be playing some first team football somewhere, so the make up is young players in the football league and highly thought of but not the best young players in development squads like Dom Ball at the time.

Shows how much Winks has been underplayed. Next season I'd expect a load of the current 19s to go into the 21s
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,687
104,967
Chelsea players were generally the standout throughout the tournament People like to undermine them by saying they're big which they are, but they'er excellent players. Was essentially a club team with Baker, Swift, RLC, Chalobah and Palmer that won this tournament and beat a generally good France team.

Barely any top league club appearances between em but still show they are more than talented enough, than most players with a lot of league appearances, but many will still doubt them. They won't get their chance then when they're 23/24 and haven't had their chance people will say they were never good enough



But you're interest and enthusiasm for youth helped inspire it, plus your views and discussion surrounding youth contribute greatly. Will change the name to something more approrpaite now though

Other premier league clubs really should be trying to poach players from Chelsea. Surely the kids must know that they are never going to get in the first team.
 

whitelanefever

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Aug 21, 2012
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I was talking to someone today about Toulon tournament.. Bundesliga scouts very impressed with Kortney Hause
 

Cornpattbuck

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Jul 23, 2013
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All I read on here is that Rashford was a bit of a nothing u-18 player only 6 months ago.

It's hard to understand how he's gone from doing nothing against u-18 defenders to dominating PL defences in such a short space of time. Any sensible explanations (maybe I'm just too ignorant of his youth career)?

I mean the likes of Rooney, Owen and Sterling etc were blowing youth leagues apart and came to the first team with a certain expectation and hype...
 

IGSpur

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Jan 11, 2013
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All I read on here is that Rashford was a bit of a nothing u-18 player only 6 months ago.

It's hard to understand how he's gone from doing nothing against u-18 defenders to dominating PL defences in such a short space of time. Any sensible explanations (maybe I'm just too ignorant of his youth career)?

I mean the likes of Rooney, Owen and Sterling etc were blowing youth leagues apart and came to the first team with a certain expectation and hype...

He wasn't a nothing player, I think what people mean is firstly he wasn't a standout for his age group and then relative to his position he wasn't necessarily any better than Harrison.

So when he first appeared as a 16 year old at the Victory Shield he was one of United's highest rated prospects alongside Mitchell who were both wingers, though Mitchell was probably rated higher. Rashford was small, quick and a good dribbler.

Since, Mitchell has been constantly injured and I think he is only just recovering, then Rashford became United's star attacking player on the left wing. While Man U rate this age group highly relatively speaking there are clubs with better in takes than theirs, and an example of this is, while being United star player he still couldn't get into competitive England squads, as om the wings they had Roberts, Brown and Ojo to name a few. Rashford was still quite small and while he was a good dribbler I'd only argue at that point he was more naturally talented than Brown, really not a fan of his.

Anyway come the 14/15 season MU had suffered more injuries and Rashford now saw himself filling in as a striker, at u18s. He also start to grow a bit more. While it was due to injuries knowing coaches no doubt he was also put there to develop his allround game. His finishing improved and he started to develop hold up play and scoring more regularly for the u18s. We came across Man Us latest best crop, since their 2011 crop, in the FAYC, where Fosu-Mensah, CBJ, Rashford, Mitchell, Tuanzebe, Williams, Riley, Janko (and I think Gribbin, who is one of two of their next biggest talents). We outplayed them and looked a considerably better team, with Onomah, CCV, Harrison, KWP, Amos and Georgiou all having excellent games. Count the first team chances between em. Rashford scored Uniteds only goal as they went one up with a good freekick.

Anyway after that he started to score gradually and ended the season well as his first season as a striker, and people were unsure of his best position. At this point again he still was not good enough to usurp Abraham, Solanke or Armstrong, for England, who were banging goals in upfront.

Now 15/16 season starts, I think he gets an hour for an u21 match and scores and is back playing u18s. Man Utd have a load of injuries, and rather than playing players out of position (strange for LVG) he fills in the gaps with academy players as I think they should do. Rashford gets a chance in EL scores a brace on debut and the rest is history.

He wasn't a nobody. He was a very highly rated prospect at United, who was adjusting to a new position. He wasn't the best in his age group in either positions. He was a very good player and I liked Rashford however he was just part of a very talented England age group. He basically made the jump from u18s football to PL football, which apparently is impossible for even u21s. He wasn't a prodigy, he was one of loads of talented players in his age group, all who are talented enough to play PL football I believe, who was just given his chance in the PL. He also had the advantage that he was under no pressure, and his club didn't play with a specific style, so it was win win. He could drift around doing what he wanted. Unlike other youth players who are expected to instantly perform if they get their chance otherwise are written off, he was not expected to be ready for this level yet, though obviously must have looked like he could cope in training. If it failed, oh well, we have injuries and he goes back into u21s and they plan for his proper route into the first team. Instead the arrogance of youth pays off, and he is now hailed as one of England's greatest prospects and going to the Euros, while ironically every other young player mentioned in this post, not from Utd, may never ever get the chances for their club that he has, and his 'better' contemporaries head to the Euros but at u19 age group. How quickly things can change. He went from not being good enough for them to now being the best in his age group.

Funnily enough people would question England coaches for not identifying him as being better than the others instead of questioning whether all of the other players should be getting similar chances at their clubs.

A bit about Harrison. I wouldn't say Harrison is necessarily a better prospect than him. Relative to their clubs it's not a question who is considered the better prospect, but his scoring record, experience in that position far outweighs Rashford's. His ability is debated, it might not be as naturally talented as Rashford, but I definitely think he is capable to do a job in EL. Sadly he won't have that opportunity next season.

EDIT-I'll also add he is the same age group as O.Dembele and Embolo. People would probably now see Rashford on their level or just below despite them being considered outstanding prospects this year and the previous year. These 3 are all talented and I expect them to be around for a while, however I reckon a couple will plateau and I wouldn't be surprised that when they are all 21/22 that another currently 'unknown/less talented' 97 born will be rated as high or better than them, as they eventually get their chance. It is rare, the first to come through in their age group stay as the best in the age group. E.g. I wouldn't be surprised to see either of the 3 current Eng u19s strikers rated higher at that age if they were to get their chance.

Similar to how Lukaku and Wickham were highly rated and the players to sign at 18/19, but come 21/22, they have both been overtaken by Kane. Were they always better than Kane, highly doubt it, as ever they just got their chance.
 
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