Grass roots youth and gender classification

[Trix]

An issue has arisen at my my boys under 15 team that is causing the club an issue, and I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced anything similar.

A few months back "a girl" moved to the area(in calling her that for the purposes of this thread because biologically that is what she is). She came to the club on sign up day and said she classified herself an non binary and wanted to play in the boys team even though the club has a girls team for her age group u15. They are allowed to play mixed at that age so the club had no issue with it. Fast forward a few weeks and the parents have had a word with the coach that the boys are being too rough with their child in training. Fact is they are being no different to how they are with each other. The coach explained this and again mentioned the girls team to and the parents took offense to this, saying their child was being discriminated against. They are now asking why she hasn't yet featured in a competitive match(pre lock down) and would lodge a formal complaint if this persisted when they resume. Problem is this girl is very slight and weak in training and would fare even worse in the league.

Anyone experienced anything similar and how it was dealt with?

 

[Tucker]

Sounds like a tricky situation, doesn’t sound like they have been discriminated against, they’ve been welcomed into the team but just hasn’t been picked on merit.

I guess the easy solution is to give them a game and see what happens, the worst that can happen is a poor performance that shows why the coaches have been right not to pick them. Maybe the coaches can give them some physical routines to do to help bulk up a bit too. If they are serious about wanting to be in the boys team, then they’ll take the feedback on board and try to improve their strength etc.

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Sounds like the parents need to have a good chat with themselves tbh

 

[Rout-Ledge]

Sounds like a nightmare situation which I don’t envy.

He has been allowed to play with the boys despite being biologically female, which seems like a dangerous decision to me and isn’t one that I endorse. It’s a contact sport and not for the faint hearted even if you’re biologically male. I can see why the parents would be upset about it but the only answer is that their child should play with a biologically female team whilst having his gender identity respected.

 

[ILS]

His/her parents are Arsenal fans aren' t they?

 

[McArchibald]

In any team sport there are more players than places on the team, and it is up to the coach to select a team from among those players. So for parents to kick up a fuss and demand playing time for their child should be a big no-no - regardless of the background of the child. What about the other children, if this child get preferential treatment, however merited that may or may not be?
That is - in my view - your club's defence. It would be unfair to give preferential treatment of any kind to any one team member. Especially since an alternative is available...

 

[WalkerboyUK]

An issue has arisen at my my boys under 15 team that is causing the club an issue, and I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced anything similar.

A few months back "a girl" moved to the area(in calling her that for the purposes of this thread because biologically that is what she is). She came to the club on sign up day and said she classified herself an non binary and wanted to play in the boys team even though the club has a girls team for her age group u15. They are allowed to play mixed at that age so the club had no issue with it. Fast forward a few weeks and the parents have had a word with the coach that the boys are being too rough with their child in training. Fact is they are being no different to how they are with each other. The coach explained this and again mentioned the girls team to and the parents took offense to this, saying their child was being discriminated against. They are now asking why she hasn't yet featured in a competitive match(pre lock down) and would lodge a formal complaint if this persisted when they resume. Problem is this girl is very slight and weak in training and would fare even worse in the league.

Anyone experienced anything similar and how it was dealt with?

We had a girl in my son's team at U13 & 14 level and she was treated exactly the same as the boys. Think she was joint top scorer in U13 season.
She left purely because she was signed by a professional team and was not permitted to play grass roots any more.

If this player is being treated exactly like anyone else, and the coach can prove it, then the parents don't have a leg to stand on when they lodge a complaint, especially if there is a girls team for that age group. In our team the slighter and weaker players are the ones who tend not to get as much match time on a Sunday, mainly because they do come up against some players who look like they're 18/19!

Alternatively, the coach could put her out on the pitch on match day to prove the point. He might be surprised...

That being said, why are players being rough in training anyway?
There's little in the way of tackling when it comes to training in my lad's team, mainly because they don't want to end up with injuries and missing matches.

 

[sausage]

Sounds like a nightmare situation which I don’t envy.

He has been allowed to play with the boys despite being biologically female, which seems like a dangerous decision to me and isn’t one that I endorse. It’s a contact sport and not for the faint hearted even if you’re biologically male. I can see why the parents would be upset about it but the only answer is that their child should play with a biologically female team whilst having his gender identity respected.

This is one of the issues.

I work with one of the new-age super-liberal types (really naive view of the world) and he took exception to me once saying that males have a genetic strength advantage in sports over females. It's biologically indisputable, but people think that bending the laws of physics and biology are human rights.

It's not like F1, Golf or Snooker where your gender is incidental - contact sports are gender classified mainly to avoid physical "handicaps" (such that males have an unfair genetic advantage).

Yes, you also get scales in the male genetics where some are slight and some are naturally stocky, but it further highlights the fact that gender is not the issue - twiggy or weak lads wouldn't make it into the team on merit - it doesn't matter how you identify or what biological situation your gender is at.

You can get pretty masculine females who can physically compete with males (Caster Semanya, for a high-profile example) but if you completely obliterate the gender separation then you'd likely end up with teams almost full of males and seeing people complain that girls don't get a chance and so on.

I think the liberal attitude towards gender gets pretty sketchy as soon as you incorporate violence and physical contact. What happens, for example, if you have mixed football and someone gets touched on the chest or kicked in areas where it's seen to be inappropriate (intentional or not)?

 

[WalkerboyUK]

In any team sport there are more players than places on the team, and it is up to the coach to select a team from among those players. So for parents to kick up a fuss and demand playing time for their child should be a big no-no - regardless of the background of the child. What about the other children, if this child get preferential treatment, however merited that may or may not be?
That is - in my view - your club's defence. It would be unfair to give preferential treatment of any kind to any one team member. Especially since an alternative is available...

Yep, as I said above, we have players who don't get as much playing time as some others.
There are probably 5 players who you know will get the full 80 mins playing time and then between the other 9 in the squad it's rotated through matches (rolling subs).
There are one or two parents who moan on the sidelines and this year 2 players have been very vocal with the coach about lack of minutes.
My lad is in goal, so he's obviously guaranteed full match time (until yesterday's injury occurred), but I do get where the parents are coming from. After all, everyone is paying the same amount each season (£140) so it's only right that minutes are even.

 

[Col_M]

Maybe one of the Milan clubs will have her?

 

[Trix]

Sounds like a nightmare situation which I don’t envy.

He has been allowed to play with the boys despite being biologically female, which seems like a dangerous decision to me and isn’t one that I endorse. It’s a contact sport and not for the faint hearted even if you’re biologically male. I can see why the parents would be upset about it but the only answer is that their child should play with a biologically female team whilst having his gender identity respected.

We had a girl in my son's team at U13 & 14 level and she was treated exactly the same as the boys. Think she was joint top scorer in U13 season.
She left purely because she was signed by a professional team and was not permitted to play grass roots any more.

If this player is being treated exactly like anyone else, and the coach can prove it, then the parents don't have a leg to stand on when they lodge a complaint, especially if there is a girls team for that age group. In our team the slighter and weaker players are the ones who tend not to get as much match time on a Sunday, mainly because they do come up against some players who look like they're 18/19!

Alternatively, the coach could put her out on the pitch on match day to prove the point. He might be surprised...

That being said, why are players being rough in training anyway?
There's little in the way of tackling when it comes to training in my lad's team, mainly because they don't want to end up with injuries and missing matches.

They aren't being rough mate, we are talking about sliding tackles, jostling in the box etc it isn't rough, it's just general physicality in practice games and skirmishes etc.
You're right though in that I've seen very good female players at his age group in his league. The issue here is the child in question is extremely feminine characteristically speaking(apart from the skin head). I've even heard them squeal when the ball has been hit towards them too fast.

 

[Amo]

Is it a male team or a boys/men's team?

Regardless though, unless they have evidence the kid is being discriminated against because of identity and not because of ability, there's no real complaint.

They could argue the remark about going to the girl's team constitutes an admission but I don't think that'll fly.

If the kid can hack it there's no issue. If they can't then there's no case

 

[hellava_tough]

They aren't being rough mate, we are talking about sliding tackles, jostling in the box etc it isn't rough, it's just general physicality in practice games and skirmishes etc.
You're right though in that I've seen very good female players at his age group in his league. The issue here is the child in question is extremely feminine characteristically speaking(apart from the skin head). I've even heard them squeal when the ball has been hit towards them too fast.

Sounds like her parents are putting her through an ordeal to prove a political/social point.

Don't sound like very good parents tbh.

 

[dontcallme]

I haven't no experience of this.

My view would be to allow the formal complaint.

It seems the argument is the player is not good enough to play in the first team and is asking for the training to change to suit them.

Probably a good idea to get a strong definition of discrimination to prove this isn't the case.

They then present their argument, which from what I can tell is weak.

 

[brasil_spur]

It's a super tricky issue and one that needs both a blunt, but carefully considered response. I know my parents are very annoyed right now as to why I haven't featured in a competitive match for Spurs this season, but the silly point i'm making here is the same as the point above - sport is not an equal opportunities event. It is purely based on skill/talent and at the discretion of the coach to pick the team that he thinks will be best on the day. A similar and less silly version of this that we all understand is that if Son wasn't picked for any games it's not because he's Korean and Mourinho is discriminating against Koreans, but because as the coach he has the finite power to pick and chose whoever he wants to start without needing to justify the decision.

In terms of being too rough in training, that's an easier one to explain, football is a contact sport and as such if they want they daughter to play in either the boy or the girls team then she will have to cope with whatever contact comes her way. If that contact is too rough for her then she should take up a non contact sport instead. I gave up playing rugby when i was 15 despite being good at it and enjoying it as i didn't have the frame or height to compete with some of the monster kids that you get at that age and after several crappy injuries i decided it was getting too dangerous.

Ultimately though these parents are going to be difficult to deal with, as allowing a 15 year old to identify as non-binary is not a sensible approach, there is currently a large (and fairly unknown) epidemic in the UK (and US) of girls in this age range identifying as male / non-binary and the evidence is showing that a very large majority of them go on to regret this decision down the line. I wouldn't get into this level of conversation with the parents, but from a footballing perspective it needs to be made clear that there is no discrimination other than who are the best 11 players for the game ahead and unfortunately this girl is not in that list right now. If she's also struggling with the level of contact in training then it's just simply a case of her needing to find another team / sport that is more suited to her skill / talent level.

Goog luck though, wouldn't want to be in this situation myself

 

[Dillspur]

It's a super tricky issue and one that needs both a blunt, but carefully considered response. I know my parents are very annoyed right now as to why I haven't featured in a competitive match for Spurs this season, but the silly point i'm making here is the same as the point above - sport is not an equal opportunities event. It is purely based on skill/talent and at the discretion of the coach to pick the team that he thinks will be best on the day. A similar and less silly version of this that we all understand is that if Son wasn't picked for any games it's not because he's Korean and Mourinho is discriminating against Koreans, but because as the coach he has the finite power to pick and chose whoever he wants to start without needing to justify the decision.

In terms of being too rough in training, that's an easier one to explain, football is a contact sport and as such if they want they daughter to play in either the boy or the girls team then she will have to cope with whatever contact comes her way. If that contact is too rough for her then she should take up a non contact sport instead. I gave up playing rugby when i was 15 despite being good at it and enjoying it as i didn't have the frame or height to compete with some of the monster kids that you get at that age and after several crappy injuries i decided it was getting too dangerous.

Ultimately though these parents are going to be difficult to deal with, as allowing a 15 year old to identify as non-binary is not a sensible approach, there is currently a large (and fairly unknown) epidemic in the UK (and US) of girls in this age range identifying as male / non-binary and the evidence is showing that a very large majority of them go on to regret this decision down the line. I wouldn't get into this level of conversation with the parents, but from a footballing perspective it needs to be made clear that there is no discrimination other than who are the best 11 players for the game ahead and unfortunately this girl is not in that list right now. If she's also struggling with the level of contact in training then it's just simply a case of her needing to find another team / sport that is more suited to her skill / talent level.

Goog luck though, wouldn't want to be in this situation myself

Question. If as you say there is an "epidemic" of young girls starting to ID as male/non-binary how is there also "evidence" showing them regretting it down the line?

 

[Dillspur]

And ID-ing as male or non-binary doesn't mean they can't make a decision to change that later in life.

 

[brasil_spur]

Question. If as you say there is an "epidemic" of young girls starting to ID as male/non-binary how is there also "evidence" showing them regretting it down the line?

Epidemic doesn't mean it's only just started, although probably epidemic is not the best word to use here. Use "concerning trend"

And ID-ing as male or non-binary doesn't mean they can't make a decision to change that later in life.

It doesn't but it many cases those girls are then taking the next step in the gender dysphoria journey which is surgical and hormone treatment based, at an age where the impacts of this can be irreversible later in life.

Why do so many teenage girls want to change gender? - Prospect Magazine

In the last 10 years, there has been an extraordinary increase in teenagers seeking to transition from female to male. What's behind it—and has the NHS been too quick to find a solution?

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk

 

[poc]

An issue has arisen at my my boys under 15 team that is causing the club an issue, and I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced anything similar.

A few months back "a girl" moved to the area(in calling her that for the purposes of this thread because biologically that is what she is). She came to the club on sign up day and said she classified herself an non binary and wanted to play in the boys team even though the club has a girls team for her age group u15. They are allowed to play mixed at that age so the club had no issue with it. Fast forward a few weeks and the parents have had a word with the coach that the boys are being too rough with their child in training. Fact is they are being no different to how they are with each other. The coach explained this and again mentioned the girls team to and the parents took offense to this, saying their child was being discriminated against. They are now asking why she hasn't yet featured in a competitive match(pre lock down) and would lodge a formal complaint if this persisted when they resume. Problem is this girl is very slight and weak in training and would fare even worse in the league.

Anyone experienced anything similar and how it was dealt with?

Either she’s good enough or she isn’t, if she hasn’t featured I assume because someone has a better just tell her parents that. Just be straight and honest. Can’t say I experienced this with my sons team I mean girls have their teams to play and by 15 I’m afraid the boys were significantly better.

 

[Marty]

Either she’s good enough or she isn’t, if she hasn’t featured I assume because someone has a better just tell her parents that. Just be straight and honest. Can’t say I experienced this with my sons team I mean girls have their teams to play and by 15 I’m afraid the boys were significantly better.

Depends on the girls. I played with a girl up until she was 15 and got picked up by the local top flight women's team, and literally her last game for us she absolutely ran the midfield against boys that had hit puberty big time so were significantly stronger than she was.

But I certainly agree most girls don't stand a chance when they get to that age.