Joey barton

[Tucker]

Aluko is no worse than the majority of male pundits.

The vast majority of pundits aren’t great communicators, they aren’t particularly clued up, as they aren’t particularly bright.

The tv companies aren’t interested in genuine insight, they want someone recognisable to fill the five minutes of mandates programming at half time. If they could get away with it, they’d just have adverts instead.

Barton isn’t complaining because she’s crap, he’s complaining because she’s a woman.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Barton isn’t complaining because she’s crap, he’s complaining because she’s a woman.

Exactly this

Which is what makes me cringe about anyone saying he's 'right'

Always enlightening to see the ratings from various people on here during these discussions though.

 

[RuskyM]

The quality of Aluko is irrelevant - Alex Scott's a tremendous pundit, she's well-informed, eloquent, and good on camera. She also gets bile spat at her, because the assumption is she's in a role she doesn't deserve (ie taking the space of a white bloke).

 

[talkshowhost86]

The quality of Aluko is irrelevant - Alex Scott's a tremendous pundit, she's well-informed, eloquent, and good on camera. She also gets bile spat at her, because the assumption is she's in a role she doesn't deserve (ie taking the space of a white bloke).

Agreed

Certain people hate 'woke' more than they hate bigotry

And they therefore end up defending the latter

 

[dk-yid]

Really - until you guys have been forced to listen to American's commentating on a match - there should be no complaints.

American commentators have an incessant need to fill any time with talk - every moment is filled by someone over-explaining some minutiae od what everyone just saw on the screen.


But, I did want to comment on female commentators in general - there are not many, and they are very new to the process. I don't know names, and it's not really important - but there was one female commentator who does the international feed, and she has been doing it for 2-3 years now. When she started - I thought it was awful. And, I hated it - not as much as Americans, but close.

Because of the timing, most games are on Saturday mornings, I watch/listen to hundreds of games a season - often just in the background, but virtually every weekend I'll catch 3-4 games. And, I have listened to her many times over the last couple of years. She gets a lot of the really bad games that are on at 3:00 on Saturdays. And this year, I noticed that she has really improved her style - to the point where she sounds like any other commentator (voice aside).

And that only happens because someone gave her a chance, and did not shut her down when she struggled. And she worked at her craft. And she undoubtedly has inspired more women to consider this as a career. That is a good thing - because ultimately it does lead to better commentators - instead of just recycling a few old pros.

When I watch the US play - I either find a Spanish feed to listen to (I don't understand a word, and it's still better), or I turn the volume off. Nobody is forced to listen to commentators they truly don't like. But, giving people a chance to grow - that is worth any minor inconvenience.

I very much agree with this, and there is also something to be said for letting someone or something grow on you, as they grow. To reference one of your own points, the first many times I heard American punditry and commentary I thought it was awful. But once I got used to and accepted that it is just their style, tone and approach it became first bearable, then quite ok. The same can be said for female commentators and pundits, and for the fact that they don't necessarily sound (in style, tone and approach) like middle-aged white blokes. And I think this is also what rubs people the wrong way sometimes, because we have an automatic expectation of what a football pundit sound like.

Oh, and sorry this is the Joey Barton Thread. He's a ass, and nothing he ever says should be given much attention except to laugh at him. His comments were way off the mark even if some will feel that there were bits that they might even agree with.

 

[Trix]

Agreed

Certain people hate 'woke' more than they hate bigotry

And they therefore end up defending the latter

Well as long as you don't tell him we'll be fine.

I'll be honest, I've never understood the all or nothing rhetoric I find on here sometimes. I find it strange that people can't seem to hold multiple viewpoints within a specific topic. it's either X is bad Y is Good and nothing in between, and if you dare to offer that varied opinion you are lumped into "you must be....." basket. It's all very much "what have the Romans ever done for us" imo.

 

[aliyid]

The way I see it is that Aluko isn't a very good pundit or analyst. This has nothing to do with her being female just that she never appears comfortable in front of the camera and ends up saying something either blindingly obvious or laughably wrong. She's not alone in this, Michael Owen is one of the most basic / boring pundits I've ever heard and is proof that good players don't always mean good pundits. John Barnes and Jamie Redknapp are also just as bad.

The problem is that as soon as you point out Aluko isn't very good you're labelled either racist or sexist and feel the need to back it up with "but I like Alex Scott... erm and Jules Breech was good on the football ramble". It's the modern version of "some of my best friends are black..."

As others have said though Barton is still a twat and falls into the group of ex-pros trying to generate an audience by saying something controversial. Robbie savage was the first to try it but managed to change his style once he started getting some air time. The likes of Barton, Collymore & Jason Cundy are all too busy chasing interactions and saying something controversial gets more clicks

 

[KILLA_SIN]

The way I see it is that Aluko isn't a very good pundit or analyst. This has nothing to do with her being female just that she never appears comfortable in front of the camera and ends up saying something either blindingly obvious or laughably wrong. She's not alone in this, Michael Owen is one of the most basic / boring pundits I've ever heard and is proof that good players don't always mean good pundits. John Barnes and Jamie Redknapp are also just as bad.

The problem is that as soon as you point out Aluko isn't very good you're labelled either racist or sexist and feel the need to back it up with "but I like Alex Scott... erm and Jules Breech was good on the football ramble". It's the modern version of "some of my best friends are black..."

As others have said though Barton is still a twat and falls into the group of ex-pros trying to generate an audience by saying something controversial. Robbie savage was the first to try it but managed to change his style once he started getting some air time. The likes of Barton, Collymore & Jason Cundy are all too busy chasing interactions and saying something controversial gets more clicks

No one said anything about anyone being Racist unless I've missed something in the posts.

 

[easley91]

Aluko shouldn't be a pundit, because she's terrible. Joey Barton thinks she shouldn't be a pundit, because she's a woman. Barton is the football equivalent of Andrew Tate and seems to be garnering a following at the moment, saying outrageous comments to be noticed.

He's a disgusting piece of **** that needs to **** off.

 

[aliyid]

No one said anything about anyone being Racist unless I've missed something in the posts.

Not saying here as I think we all know each other well enough by now to dismiss that but a lot of the abuse Aluko has received via social media has included a racial angle

 

[KILLA_SIN]

Not saying here as I think we all know each other well enough by now to dismiss that but a lot of the abuse Aluko has received via social media has included a racial angle

View attachment 136805

Ok cool, thanks - I think that's virtually a given on Social Media

 

[talkshowhost86]

The way I see it is that Aluko isn't a very good pundit or analyst. This has nothing to do with her being female just that she never appears comfortable in front of the camera and ends up saying something either blindingly obvious or laughably wrong. She's not alone in this, Michael Owen is one of the most basic / boring pundits I've ever heard and is proof that good players don't always mean good pundits. John Barnes and Jamie Redknapp are also just as bad.

The problem is that as soon as you point out Aluko isn't very good you're labelled either racist or sexist and feel the need to back it up with "but I like Alex Scott... erm and Jules Breech was good on the football ramble". It's the modern version of "some of my best friends are black..."

As others have said though Barton is still a twat and falls into the group of ex-pros trying to generate an audience by saying something controversial. Robbie savage was the first to try it but managed to change his style once he started getting some air time. The likes of Barton, Collymore & Jason Cundy are all too busy chasing interactions and saying something controversial gets more clicks

No I think people criticise people who are being racist or who are being misogynistic.

I think we've seen lots of people in here being able to criticise Aluko without bringing her gender or the colour of her skin into it.

Unfortunately fuckwits like Barton and those who defend him aren't able to do that.

And that's why when Trix and Co say 'he isn't wrong' they are missing the point completely.

Barton isn't saying she's a bad pundit because she's not good at the job. He's saying she's a bad pundit because she's a woman.

So no...he isn't right about it at all.

 

[Oscar22]

No I think people criticise people who are being racist or who are being misogynistic.

I think we've seen lots of people in here being able to criticise Aluko without bringing her gender or the colour of her skin into it.

Unfortunately fuckwits like Barton and those who defend him aren't able to do that.

And that's why when Trix and Co say 'he isn't wrong' they are missing the point completely.

Barton isn't saying she's a bad pundit because she's not good at the job. He's saying she's a bad pundit because she's a woman.

So no...he isn't right about it at all.

I can’t help but feel that it’s a bit of a misdirection or misunderstanding of what trix was trying to say though tbh.

I think Joey Barton is saying exactly what you say he is, I think we all know Barton shouldn’t get air time and that he is just an angry little sexist/racist child trying to be noticed - the bloke should just dissapear.

I think Trix worded his post poorly but hasn’t meant to say exactly what you’re saying he has, yes, he did say “Barton isn’t completely wrong” but I don’t think he meant that exactly in the direct sense. I think it was more a case of Barton basically saying ‘Aluko is a poor pundit because blah blah blah’… I think when trix was saying “he isn’t completely wrong” what he was actually agreeing with is that he thinks Aluko is a poor pundit… not the reasons nor rationale for it.

I think everything you say about people agreeing with Barton is correct, but I’m really uncomfortable with saying someone else on the forum has the same beliefs, same ideas and is actually agreeing with that person wholeheartedly when it strikes me as trix just worded his post in a way that didn’t fully explain his thoughts, be that through wording it poorly or perhaps not fully expressing or feeling he needed to express that he didn’t agree with ALL of Barton’s rhetoric.

I do agree with your point, I’m just not sure it’s being correctly applied in terms of trix response here.

 

[Trix]

I can’t help but feel that it’s a bit of a misdirection or misunderstanding of what trix was trying to say though tbh.

I think Joey Barton is saying exactly what you say he is, I think we all know Barton shouldn’t get air time and that he is just an angry little sexist/racist child trying to be noticed - the bloke should just dissapear.

I think Trix worded his post poorly but hasn’t meant to say exactly what you’re saying he has, yes, he did say “Barton isn’t completely wrong” but I don’t think he meant that exactly in the direct sense. I think it was more a case of Barton basically saying ‘Aluko is a poor pundit because blah blah blah’… I think when trix was saying “he isn’t completely wrong” what he was actually agreeing with is that he thinks Aluko is a poor pundit… not the reasons nor rationale for it.

I think everything you say about people agreeing with Barton is correct, but I’m really uncomfortable with saying someone else on the forum has the same beliefs, same ideas and is actually agreeing with that person wholeheartedly when it strikes me as trix just worded his post in a way that didn’t fully explain his thoughts, be that through wording it poorly or perhaps not fully expressing or feeling he needed to express that he didn’t agree with ALL of Barton’s rhetoric.

I do agree with your point, I’m just not sure it’s being correctly applied in terms of trix response here.

Exactly this, and @talkshowhost86 knows that full well too. I even clarified it a couple of posts later. He even says so in one of his after posts to this that he doesn't like that I agreed with any single part of what he said regardless.

The hypocrisy in what he's saying hasn't gone unnoticed.

 

[Mycroft Jones]

I suspect the issue is that with women and people of colour being historically under represented in football related media there is an understandable rush to recruit a more diverse group of presenters, commentators and pundits. With male footballers having been very visible in the media during their playing careers it's easy for broadcasters to spot those that aren't afraid of the camera and can reply to questions with something more erudite that "yes hundred percent". Without that history for female players it's easy to see why Eniola Aluko would be seen as worth a try, successful career in the women's game, law graduate. I'm expecting a number of former female players to appear until those that perform well make the positions their own.

 

[rossdapep]

Barton would have always targetted someone but a lot of the pile on with Aluko started when she went on Talksport and openly Said she contacted another club's sporting director to get them to bid for a player and create a bidding war so she could persuade her owner to pay the fee the selling club wanted.

I don't know if that happened in her experience but she was openly admitting to abusing her position and could easily be done for fraud.

Those comments descredited her and she shouldnt be taken seriously in football because you cannot do that.

No club will employ her as a sporting director now

Had Barton kept things to the facts and maybe taken issue with what she had done and Said and not made it about women in the game, just purely on what she had Said, he may have had a point.

But he has taken it way overboard by using the 'serial killer' comment and been nasty about it.

Its easy to see through him though.

I saw his interview with Piers Morgan and he was actually a lot more 'civil' and actually explains it much more better. His point was still a bit off but he came across as someone who generally didnt like poor punditry.

Yet his Twitter account ramps it up.

So, he is clearly playing to his audience.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I can’t help but feel that it’s a bit of a misdirection or misunderstanding of what trix was trying to say though tbh.

I think Joey Barton is saying exactly what you say he is, I think we all know Barton shouldn’t get air time and that he is just an angry little sexist/racist child trying to be noticed - the bloke should just dissapear.

I think Trix worded his post poorly but hasn’t meant to say exactly what you’re saying he has, yes, he did say “Barton isn’t completely wrong” but I don’t think he meant that exactly in the direct sense. I think it was more a case of Barton basically saying ‘Aluko is a poor pundit because blah blah blah’… I think when trix was saying “he isn’t completely wrong” what he was actually agreeing with is that he thinks Aluko is a poor pundit… not the reasons nor rationale for it.

I think everything you say about people agreeing with Barton is correct, but I’m really uncomfortable with saying someone else on the forum has the same beliefs, same ideas and is actually agreeing with that person wholeheartedly when it strikes me as trix just worded his post in a way that didn’t fully explain his thoughts, be that through wording it poorly or perhaps not fully expressing or feeling he needed to express that he didn’t agree with ALL of Barton’s rhetoric.

I do agree with your point, I’m just not sure it’s being correctly applied in terms of trix response here.

I haven't once said that Trix or anyone else agrees with Barton on everything and I definitely wouldn't suggest that Trix believes all female commentators are terrible because they are women. Trix has been very clear that he thinks Barton is a prick.

But when you use phrases such as 'Barton isn't wrong though' you are, in my opinion, partially backing up the prick in question.

I know it's a huge cliche to drop the H-bomb, but if someone said, "Yes Hitler was a prick, but he wasn't wrong about [x]"...there isn't a word that can be put in place of that X that makes it okay.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Exactly this, and @talkshowhost86 knows that full well too. I even clarified it a couple of posts later. He even says so in one of his after posts to this that he doesn't like that I agreed with any single part of what he said regardless.

The hypocrisy in what he's saying hasn't gone unnoticed.

Ooooooooooh

But also...there isn't any hypocrisy in what I've said at all.

If you're admitting you worded in badly then fair enough.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

I suspect the issue is that with women and people of colour being historically under represented in football related media there is an understandable rush to recruit a more diverse group of presenters, commentators and pundits. With male footballers having been very visible in the media during their playing careers it's easy for broadcasters to spot those that aren't afraid of the camera and can reply to questions with something more erudite that "yes hundred percent". Without that history for female players it's easy to see why Eniola Aluko would be seen as worth a try, successful career in the women's game, law graduate. I'm expecting a number of former female players to appear until those that perform well make the positions their own.

Isnt real point that this is a Joey Barton thread, not a punditry thread?

He is beyond doubt a bigot, and uses arguments about tv punditry, for example, to express his bigotry.

For us to then discuss punditry in this thread is, intentionally or not, and almost certainly not intentionally, pandering to the bigotry that hides under the false cover of a conversation about the TV coverage of football.

It dignifies him with a modicum of serious intent he simply doesn’t possess.

 

[rossdapep]

I tried to get into commentary about 10 years ago and I can certainly say as someone who was not a real outgoing speaker, I struggled to say what I really wanted to and explains things in a real basic way.

In one instance, I was to keep my phone ready and at some point the radio would call me to get a summary of the game in no more than 30 seconds.

I was actually really nervous and whilst I knew I could explain a football game, I started to panic and in my head I was going a bit blank.

When the call came, about 60mins into the game, I gave the most basic description, something along the lines of "Corner to Wimbledon, kicked it in, and cleared"

I wouldnt ever explain it like that if I was in a calm situation. I was gutted I had done so and was thinking that the radio station must be thinking "Lets not go back to him again".

A few weeks later, I had to do a post match summary of another game and I had to do it with people around me in the stands. I had to Record it at least 10 times before I even felt it was acceptable and I still thought it was shit!

So, perhaps some of these pundits need a bit of time to find themselves and get comfortable.

What I don't agree with is them immediately jumping a queue and getting into the Studio before they have operated at a lower level so they can become Sharp and prove themselves as knowledgable.

That goes for men too.