Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Trix]

That's true mate but Klopp didn't really give youth a chance at first.

Only Ojo got significant minutes but only 1 start in Klopp's first season. Randall got a little bit too but pretty much all thise minutes came in the cup, especially to start with.

Klopp started to integrate TAA the following season and gave Woodburn some minutes but again nothing to significant.

Randall and Ojo hardly got any minutes at all and were cast aside.

Kevin Stewart got more but he was 23 by this point.

This was all while they still had players out there like Lucas, Can, Moreno, Klavan, Grujic in the squad - players Klopp binned off soon after.

TAA became established the following season but the other younger players were even given no opportunites or let go.

Pep gave a couple of games to Tosin and a few to others but they were all Spanish kids (Diaz, Garcia, Maffeo) - all sold on.

Foden and Nmecha got chances the season after and only Foden got more after this. But still had to wait to become more established.

Pep didn;t give any other young players minutes the following season.

Therefore, I don't think you can really hold them up as examples. Both of them focused on getting to full strength before really trusting them. They have been there for 8 and 7 years, respectively and I don;t believe they have given enough youth chance.

I think we can only criticise Ange about this once he has been here a while, has stronger depth in key areas, and had more cup fixtures to give them those minutes.

Perhaps I'm being a bit too critical about this but a lot of that is down to the fact I hear how others are frustrated by it so I know it's becoming an issue. When you have youth team coaches and youth players agents saying it there is clearly a problem somewhere. Whether people on here think it's justified or not, it is a thing. I just don't want to see all the brilliant work FP and his team have put into completely revolutionising the youth system go to shit and back to where it was. It's took a lot of blood, sweat, tears and schmoozing to get this academy back to being competitive and it'd be a real shame if it went back to how it was previous.

So if I have an agenda that is it.

That however is nothing to do with my issue of how we defend at times and is a separate issue entirely.

 

[Styopa]

That's true mate but Klopp didn't really give youth a chance at first.

Only Ojo got significant minutes but only 1 start in Klopp's first season. Randall got a little bit too but pretty much all thise minutes came in the cup, especially to start with.

Klopp started to integrate TAA the following season and gave Woodburn some minutes but again nothing to significant.

Randall and Ojo hardly got any minutes at all and were cast aside.

Kevin Stewart got more but he was 23 by this point.

This was all while they still had players out there like Lucas, Can, Moreno, Klavan, Grujic in the squad - players Klopp binned off soon after.

TAA became established the following season but the other younger players were even given no opportunites or let go.

Pep gave a couple of games to Tosin and a few to others but they were all Spanish kids (Diaz, Garcia, Maffeo) - all sold on.

Foden and Nmecha got chances the season after and only Foden got more after this. But still had to wait to become more established.

Pep didn;t give any other young players minutes the following season.

Therefore, I don't think you can really hold them up as examples. Both of them focused on getting to full strength before really trusting them. They have been there for 8 and 7 years, respectively and I don;t believe they have given enough youth chance.

I think we can only criticise Ange about this once he has been here a while, has stronger depth in key areas, and had more cup fixtures to give them those minutes.

It is an interesting question, how many academy players have become first team regulars under Pep and Klopp? I honestly don’t know so it’s a question for the floor.

 

[Impspur1]

We have played much younger teams on average than either Man C or Liverpool this season. Only really Chelsea has consistently played a younger team than us and for obvious reasons. Arsenal is about the same as us - average age around 24-25.

I hate to use this term but it’s difficult to not see this as an agenda, especially since the same people beating this particular drum are the same people who were complaining about us being defensively naive a couple weeks ago.

Some also said how wonderful it was that down to nine we still played such a high line

 

[easley91]

Perhaps I'm being a bit too critical about this but a lot of that is down to the fact I hear how others are frustrated by it so I know it's becoming an issue. When you have youth team coaches and youth players agents saying it there is clearly a problem somewhere. Whether people on here think it's justified or not, it is a thing. I just don't want to see all the brilliant work FP and his team have put into completely revolutionising the youth system go to shit and back to where it was. It's took a lot of blood, sweat, tears and schmoozing to get this academy back to being competitive and it'd be a real shame if it went back to how it was previous.

Maybe some of those need to give Ange time in his job then? He has only had half a season. I get these are their careers, but they also need to be patient at the same time.

 

[Styopa]

Maybe some of those need to give Ange time in his job then? He has only had half a season. I get these are their careers, but they also need to be patient at the same time.

I think if they’re 17, or 18 and getting frustrated because the new manager who’s been here four or five months isn’t picking them yet, they’re in for a rude awakening if they think they’re going to rock up to Liverpool or Man C and immediately become established in the first team.

17, 18 and 19 is still so young. They still have a couple of years to become established surely?

But maybe these are the equivalents of Giggs, Beckham, Neville etc and I will end up eating my words. Although I can’t remember if they were all playing in the first team by the age of 18 either.

Anyway, the whole argument originally erupted around Philips who isn’t even an academy player.

 

[Trix]

Maybe some of those need to give Ange time in his job then? He has only had half a season. I get these are their careers, but they also need to be patient at the same time.

If only the world of competitive sport worked that way huh.

Look at it this way.....I'm a very promising player who has represented their country at numerous age levels, I have been training with the first team squad all season, I'm seeing kids I'm better than making appearances for other big clubs and I can't even get 10 minutes when we are 4-0 up to replace a player who doesn't hold down a first team place in his own position and on top of that doesn't even play in my position at all. I have interest from other teams telling me I'll 100% get game time if I move, I have a coach telling me I can't do any more and to just keep going and an agent who doesn't really get paid unless I make it onto a decent pro contract.


I haven't, afaik, ever said these youth players should be starting. What I have said is I think we need to change the approach slightly or the personnel I don't care which. I do think some of them should be getting more minutes over players Ange doesn't even want to keep around though, and I do think when we are comfortably winning the opportunity has been there to do so and hasn't happened. It won't be too far away when we've bought another couple in and most of our players are back from injury and the youth's won't be even getting bench minutes.

 

[Dunc2610]

If only the world of competitive sport worked that way huh.

Look at it this way.....I'm a very promising player who has represented their country at numerous age levels, I have been training with the first team squad all season, I'm seeing kids I'm better than making appearances for other big clubs and I can't even get 10 minutes when we are 4-0 up to replace a player who doesn't hold down a first team place in his own position and on top of that doesn't even play in my position at all. I have interest from other teams telling me I'll 100% get game time if I move, I have a coach telling me I can't do any more and to just keep going and an agent who doesn't really get paid unless I make it onto a decent pro contract.


I haven't, afaik, ever said these youth players should be starting. What I have said is I think we need to change the approach slightly or the personnel I don't care which. I do think some of them should be getting more minutes over players Ange doesn't even want to keep around though, and I do think when we are comfortably winning the opportunity has been there to do so and hasn't happened. It won't be too far away when we've bought another couple in and most of our players are back from injury and the youth's won't be even getting bench minutes.

Is this endemic of Spurs are the lack of opportunities given to young players? We've seen quite a few move on from youth/B-team level to other clubs irrespective of manager.

 

[Trix]

Is this endemic of Spurs are the lack of opportunities given to young players? We've seen quite a few move on from youth/B-team level to other clubs irrespective of manager.

Yes and no. In the past I'm not sure there has always been the opportunity and that the players have had the required ability anyway personally.

If we hadn't have had the crisis we have had I don't think too many would have any complaints. It's because we have been down to the bare bones and they still can't see any way through that's the issue. If you are an England youth CB and you cant see a single minute and 2 FB's are keeping you out it's a bit different to just being a good youth player stuck behind 4 senior CB's. It's a combination of the two really.

 

[Dunc2610]

Yes and no. In the past I'm not sure there has always been the opportunity and that the players have had the required ability anyway personally.

If we hadn't have had the crisis we have had I don't think too many would have any complaints. It's because we have been down to the bare bones and they still can't see any way through that's the issue. If you are an England youth CB and you cant see a single minute and 2 FB's are keeping you out it's a bit different to just being a good youth player stuck behind 4 senior CB's. It's a combination of the two really.

Do you think the club is in danger of alienating the young guys who seemingly should be getting a chance, regardless of how small it may be, at the moment? From what I read we have some quality youngsters, surely we don't want to risk losing them to the German league or even worse, a Chelsea or Brighton?

 

[olithfc]

Yes and no. In the past I'm not sure there has always been the opportunity and that the players have had the required ability anyway personally.

If we hadn't have had the crisis we have had I don't think too many would have any complaints. It's because we have been down to the bare bones and they still can't see any way through that's the issue. If you are an England youth CB and you cant see a single minute and 2 FB's are keeping you out it's a bit different to just being a good youth player stuck behind 4 senior CB's. It's a combination of the two really.

It was a bit odd to take Ashley Phillips and not reloan him to blackburn or somewhere else where they wanted to play him in the first team. But isn't this also a product of our youth players not being loaned very well at the right times?
Alternatively the england youth cb is way off it when it comes to training with the first team compared to the FB

 

[Trix]

It was a bit odd to take Ashley Phillips and not reloan him to blackburn or somewhere else where they wanted to play him in the first team. But isn't this also a product of our youth players not being loaned very well at the right times?
Alternatively the england youth cb is way off it when it comes to training with the first team compared to the FB

Fact is he's been training with the first team squad for most of the season as have others. So how far off it can they be? If they were that far behind they'd be back training with the 21's because they'd be nothing more than training cones. I do agree though some of these boys should have been given loans and hopefully they will during January because they need to play or at least believe we have a plan in place for them to get to the first team.

 

[Impspur1]

Fact is he's been training with the first team squad for most of the season as have others. So how far off it can they be? If they were that far behind they'd be back training with the 21's because they'd be nothing more than training cones.

This is the thing I don’t understand and what counteracts the argument of many in this debate. A number of the ‘diamonds’ have trained most of the season with the first team and have made the bench. They must be viewed as being ready so why not give them a go in the midst of an unheard of injury crisis. It’s a free hit really.

 

[olithfc]

Fact is he's been training with the first team squad for most of the season as have others. So how far off it can they be? If they were that far behind they'd be back training with the 21's because they'd be nothing more than training cones. I do agree though some of these boys should have been given loans and hopefully they will during January because they need to play or at least believe we have a plan in place for them to get to the first team.

is the job of loaning them out and monitoring it the specific remit of anyone at the club (like it was for Tim Sherwood)?

 

[Trix]

This is the thing I don’t understand and what counteracts the argument of many in this debate. A number of the ‘diamonds’ have trained most of the season with the first team and have made the bench. They must be viewed as being ready so why not give them a go in the midst of an unheard of injury crisis. It’s a free hit really.

My over riding point is that there have certainly been opportunities to at least blood some of them and show them there is a path, instead we've brought on players to play out of position or the whole squad know wont even be here at the start of next season maybe even for the remainder of this one.

 

[Impspur1]

My over riding point is that there have certainly been opportunities to at least blood some of them and show them there is a path, instead we've brought on players to play out of position or the whole squad know wont even be here at the start of next season maybe even for the remainder of this one.

Yeah that’s what I was getting at too, the use of the fullbacks at CB is the one for me.

 

[Trix]

is the job of loaning them out and monitoring it the specific remit of anyone at the club (like it was for Tim Sherwood)?

It's a combination of a few people and Fab oversaw it. I assume Lange and I accept that he's only just come in, but someone was obviously doing it in the Summer because some players did go on loan.

 

[C1w8]

This is the thing I don’t understand and what counteracts the argument of many in this debate. A number of the ‘diamonds’ have trained most of the season with the first team and have made the bench. They must be viewed as being ready so why not give them a go in the midst of an unheard of injury crisis. It’s a free hit really.

Maybe theyre just deemed exactly that - ready for the bench, in case of an emergency, and thats exactly where they find themselves? Given our suspension/injury record it may also have just been a case of next man up as opposed to being picked over more senior squad members.

In the mean time theyve been training with the first team in the background getting to know the squad and the managers system. Sounds like a reasonable enough situation 6 months into Anges tenure.

 

[Impspur1]

Maybe theyre just deemed exactly that - ready for the bench, in case of an emergency, and thats exactly where they find themselves? Given our suspension/injury record it may also have just been a case of next man up as opposed to being picked over more senior squad members.

In the mean time theyve been training with the first team in the background getting to know the squad and the managers system. Sounds like a reasonable enough situation 6 months into Anges tenure.

Maybe so

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

All of this moaning about playing academy players - its in the wrong thread.

This is the Ange Postecoglou thread. He is the first team manager. It is his responsibility to deliver first team results. If he gave 5 academy players their debuts, and we finished 15th - he would be sacked. Conversely, if he gave no debuts, and we finished 2nd - he would probably get a new contract.

Ange, despite what some think, is not responsible for player development at Spurs. Yes, he can play a role - but that is neither his responsibility, nor is he being compensated to develop academy players. We have a Director of football, and a director of the Academy - who are responsible for developing those players into first team players - either here, or elsewhere.

It's also premature to start whining in those threads - given that they have not been in their positions - specifically Munn - long enough to have changed player development at the club. Most players at this level do not simply go from playing in the academy to playing in the first team. It's rare that a player has the physical and mental makeup to make that jump at this level. Typically, the player develops at the Academy until he reaches the point where he is ready to be integrated and evaluated in first team training. At that point, most players will go out on loan to the appropriate level, and gain match experience playing big boy football.

We are just now at the point where the club can make some of those decisions with players who are deemed capable of taking that step up. Munn's responsibility (or someone who reports to Munn) is to see that the players continue to develop, and he has to decide if that is best done with continued work with Ange and his coaching staff, or if it is best done at a lower level - and then find appropriate loans. If you feel the need to hear yourself moan about player development - that is where your angst should be directed.

Ange should continue to select players he thinks give him the best chance at winning a given match, and either advancing in Cups, or accumulating the maximum points in the league.

 

[Bobby TwoShots]

All of this moaning about playing academy players - its in the wrong thread.

This is the Ange Postecoglou thread. He is the first team manager. It is his responsibility to deliver first team results. If he gave 5 academy players their debuts, and we finished 15th - he would be sacked. Conversely, if he gave no debuts, and we finished 2nd - he would probably get a new contract.

Ange, despite what some think, is not responsible for player development at Spurs. Yes, he can play a role - but that is neither his responsibility, nor is he being compensated to develop academy players. We have a Director of football, and a director of the Academy - who are responsible for developing those players into first team players - either here, or elsewhere.

It's also premature to start whining in those threads - given that they have not been in their positions - specifically Munn - long enough to have changed player development at the club. Most players at this level do not simply go from playing in the academy to playing in the first team. It's rare that a player has the physical and mental makeup to make that jump at this level. Typically, the player develops at the Academy until he reaches the point where he is ready to be integrated and evaluated in first team training. At that point, most players will go out on loan to the appropriate level, and gain match experience playing big boy football.

We are just now at the point where the club can make some of those decisions with players who are deemed capable of taking that step up. Munn's responsibility (or someone who reports to Munn) is to see that the players continue to develop, and he has to decide if that is best done with continued work with Ange and his coaching staff, or if it is best done at a lower level - and then find appropriate loans. If you feel the need to hear yourself moan about player development - that is where your angst should be directed.

Ange should continue to select players he thinks give him the best chance at winning a given match, and either advancing in Cups, or accumulating the maximum points in the league.

I get your point, but what's the difference between blooding an academy player or a new signing who's never played in the PL? Lots of overseas players new to the league can struggle at first. Yeah, Ange's primary job is to get results, but being 4-0 up (v Newcastle) or 4-0 down (v Brighton) when the result is already decided seems like an ideal opportunity to give a kid or two a chance -- there's no downside.