Player Watch - Tanguy Ndombele

[Klinsmannic]

Where do you put Rodrigo in our lineup?

Different Rodrigo (Argentinian at Udinese). Can play number 10/AM. Not seen much of him though tbh.

 

[Japhet]

Where do you put Rodrigo in our lineup?

2 rows behind Mourinho, between Joe Hart and Harvey White.

 

[THOWIG]

First choice midfield looks decent. Any injuries or substitutions then it looks fairly average. We struggled to control games last season. I personally think it's our weakest area now.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

First choice midfield looks decent. Any injuries or substitutions then it looks fairly average. We struggled to control games last season. I personally think it's our weakest area now.

Thing is, Mourinho has no interest in controlling games with the ball. I get the impression that in some matches, he would be happy to have disciplined soldiers in the midfield that allow us to control the match without the ball

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Different Rodrigo (Argentinian at Udinese). Can play number 10/AM. Not seen much of him though tbh.

I know which one you meant. He’s a good player. From what I’ve seen though he’s playing in a midfield 3 for Udinese in their 352, albeit the spare of the 3, so I’m not sure he’d be any better than Lo Celso or even Winks as our all rounder partnering Højbjerg in a 2. If you mean for him to take Dele’s place, there’s credence to that thought I guess but I think he’d not really be an improvement, those as an alternative to compete with and push Dele (and be more regularly available than Lamela) it could work, but that is probably dependent on our ability to sell the hard to sell Lamela as we’re very well stocked in attacking midfield/ out wide.

For context, Dele over the past 4 seasons, in the premier league and always as our secondary creative player behind Eriksen bar the final 6 months, has both made and scored more PL goals than Rodrigo has in Serie A, and in fewer appearances.

Even if you argue that Deles stats are padded by an exceptional 16/17, which I accept he has not since repeated, Dele only has 4 fewer league assists in the past 3 seasons but in 21 fewer league matches, while still managing 2 more goals.

Last season even, Dele managed 8 goals and 4 assists in 25 league matches compared to Rodrigos 7 goals and 6 assists in 34.

18/19 when Dele had his worst season for us, he chalked up only 5 and 3 in 25 compared to Rodrigo’s 9 and 8 in 36. This was the only year where Rodrogo’s combined output was anywhere near 1 in 2, whereas Deles combined output has been better than 1 in 2 in 2 of the last 4 years (actually, 3 of the last 5), and hit 1 in 2 last season. 18/19 is as much of a negative outlier with his 1 in 3 output as 18/19 was a positive outlier with his 2 in 3 league output.

As far as I’m concerned, if you’re signing someone to really compete with, maybe displace, a premier league proven 24 year old attacking midfield who has (just) better a 1 in 2 goal and assist average across 5 seasons, producing countless flair filled magical moments in that time too, and that player is a 26 year old playing in a very different style league, you need far more than that. Otherwise, you persist with the already talented supporting cast of Bergwijn and Lamela to push Dele and Lucas (assuming Son’s place is not in dispute), particularly when funds are tight and you need a striker.

But then you could just mean you’d like him instead of Lo Celso/ Winks in our pivot. If that’s the case then I’ll trust your analysis of his behaviour, as that doesn’t seem to be a role he’s played frequently given Udinese’s 3 man midfield.

 

[St José Dominguez]

First choice midfield looks decent. Any injuries or substitutions then it looks fairly average. We struggled to control games last season. I personally think it's our weakest area now.

If Ndombele is done here looking at squad and suggested starting lineup I’d say only Sanchez, Winks and Bergwijn offer actual competition for places. All the rest are either young and not yet ready (Sess, Gedson and Tanganga) or just workers (Lamela and Sissoko).
We need a Kane backup but I also think we desperately need a central creative midfielder to compete with Lo Celso and Dele for a starting spot.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

First choice midfield looks decent. Any injuries or substitutions then it looks fairly average. We struggled to control games last season. I personally think it's our weakest area now.

Agreed. I’m happy with defence and the AM, but really as it is we’re wanting Lo Celso, Højbjerg and Winks to all be injury free throughout the season. We need to replace Ndombele with some one who can play in a pivot, and probably on the more defensive side given that we’ve got two 8s but only one DM.

Brozovic for Ndombele makes too much sense for it to happen. He could play with any of the other three.

This is of course assuming we agree that Ndombele is unlikely to shape up, Sissoko should be 5th choice break glass and White shouldn’t be that exposed that quickly (though you never know with a young player).

 

[wrd]

The point of signing ndombele and lo celso is that we finally have a bit of depth with the trio of dele, ndombele and lo celso. To say we dont need to sign another creative player, I just disagree with that entirely. Even if Jose is playing more on the counter we still need depth so Dele and Lo Celso don't play every single game.

 

[Spurs Lodge Kittens]

If TN is off and we can get back our 40 - 50m the let's go out and get Grealish. He might be pushing the 60m mark cos of the English, HG and Villa's lack of need to sell but, for me, he's versatile enough to play in a couple of roles (one of those being the one TN was supposed to do for us) and he is already accustomed to the league. He would be happy to move to us too.

If we need to balance the books then hopefully the sales of Aurier, Foyth would do that.

 

[Spurs Lodge Kittens]

We'd aso have an English homegrown spine to build around which makes the desperation to find more HG players less critical in future.

 

[THOWIG]

Agreed. I’m happy with defence and the AM, but really as it is we’re wanting Lo Celso, Højbjerg and Winks to all be injury free throughout the season. We need to replace Ndombele with some one who can play in a pivot, and probably on the more defensive side given that we’ve got two 8s but only one DM.

Brozovic for Ndombele makes too much sense for it to happen. He could play with any of the other three.

This is of course assuming we agree that Ndombele is unlikely to shape up, Sissoko should be 5th choice break glass and White shouldn’t be that exposed that quickly (though you never know with a young player).

Agree. Why I was excited by the Sabitzer link (albeit loosely).

 

[SUIYHA]

There are so many names out there. It can't be that bloody hard to find a creative player.

Example.

If Rodrigo De Paul is happy to go to Leeds, then the assumption is that he should be happy to come to us.

Creative. Can play a number of positions. Relatively inexpensive.

Without a wider knowledge of young prospects from the global footballing world that I used to have when I was young and had more time on my hands, I'd suggest Buendia at Norwich. Created so many chances last season and even made Teemu Pukki look good for a bit. Right sort of age and would fit in nicely alongside our other Argentinians. Reckon he'd be available for around £20m and would offer direct creativity that we just don't have in the side at the moment.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Agree. Why I was excited by the Sabitzer link (albeit loosely).

I said earlier in the thread that I was surprised we’ve not been linked to Doucoure. If he’s a bit brawn over brain for people’s tastes, I also wouldn’t be against someone like McGinn who impressed me more than any other Villa player last year including Grealish.

I think any midfielder we do replace Ndombele with is going to be another all rounder, people praying for a playmaker just aren’t going to get it. The closest to that you’ll see in a Mourinho central midfield is Lo Celso or Modric, who while eye pleasing and able to create in slower paced La Liga, are transitional players in this league. Mourinho likes his flair in the final third and we’ve got a surplus of that, regardless of who we rate and how highly. This window is all about sensible and pragmatic, which means we fill the potholes in our road, not put speed bumps on smooth tarmac.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

If TN is off and we can get back our 40 - 50m the let's go out and get Grealish. He might be pushing the 60m mark cos of the English, HG and Villa's lack of need to sell but, for me, he's versatile enough to play in a couple of roles (one of those being the one TN was supposed to do for us) and he is already accustomed to the league. He would be happy to move to us too.

If we need to balance the books then hopefully the sales of Aurier, Foyth would do that.

Villa reportedly want £80m but if someone comes in and puts £60m down I can see them buckling. Grealish also implied at the end of the season that he was looking for a step up.

 

[Klinsmannic]

I know which one you meant. He’s a good player. From what I’ve seen though he’s playing in a midfield 3 for Udinese in their 352, albeit the spare of the 3, so I’m not sure he’d be any better than Lo Celso or even Winks as our all rounder partnering Højbjerg in a 2. If you mean for him to take Dele’s place, there’s credence to that thought I guess but I think he’d not really be an improvement, those as an alternative to compete with and push Dele (and be more regularly available than Lamela) it could work, but that is probably dependent on our ability to sell the hard to sell Lamela as we’re very well stocked in attacking midfield/ out wide.

For context, Dele over the past 4 seasons, in the premier league and always as our secondary creative player behind Eriksen bar the final 6 months, has both made and scored more PL goals than Rodrigo has in Serie A, and in fewer appearances.

Even if you argue that Deles stats are padded by an exceptional 16/17, which I accept he has not since repeated, Dele only has 4 fewer league assists in the past 3 seasons but in 21 fewer league matches, while still managing 2 more goals.

Last season even, Dele managed 8 goals and 4 assists in 25 league matches compared to Rodrigos 7 goals and 6 assists in 34.

18/19 when Dele had his worst season for us, he chalked up only 5 and 3 in 25 compared to Rodrigo’s 9 and 8 in 36. This was the only year where Rodrogo’s combined output was anywhere near 1 in 2, whereas Deles combined output has been better than 1 in 2 in 2 of the last 4 years (actually, 3 of the last 5), and hit 1 in 2 last season. 18/19 is as much of a negative outlier with his 1 in 3 output as 18/19 was a positive outlier with his 2 in 3 league output.

As far as I’m concerned, if you’re signing someone to really compete with, maybe displace, a premier league proven 24 year old attacking midfield who has (just) better a 1 in 2 goal and assist average across 5 seasons, producing countless flair filled magical moments in that time too, and that player is a 26 year old playing in a very different style league, you need far more than that. Otherwise, you persist with the already talented supporting cast of Bergwijn and Lamela to push Dele and Lucas (assuming Son’s place is not in dispute), particularly when funds are tight and you need a striker.

But then you could just mean you’d like him instead of Lo Celso/ Winks in our pivot. If that’s the case then I’ll trust your analysis of his behaviour, as that doesn’t seem to be a role he’s played frequently given Udinese’s 3 man midfield.

Agree with this. We need another AM though, I don't think we've replaced Eriksen properly yet.

(It wasn't me that suggested Rodrigo De Paul- I just stuck my nose into the convo ?)

 

[SpartanSpur]

Villa reportedly want £80m but if someone comes in and puts £60m down I can see them buckling. Grealish also implied at the end of the season that he was looking for a step up.

In a way it's a shame he just got that England call up due to dropouts. He really could have played the guilt card on Villa over his international hopes.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Agree with this. We need another AM though, I don't think we've replaced Eriksen properly yet.

(It wasn't me that suggested Rodrigo De Paul- I just stuck my nose into the convo ?)

Yes I’ve since realised it was the poster with the best screen name on SC (not being sarcastic), @Dean .

I’m not sure we haven’t replaced Eriksen. Rightly or wrongly with out counter attacking style Jose looks to be building around Dele, while Lamela you’ll note has played only down the middle too since Jose arrived. Pre season seems to support this. Bergwijn is also far more than just a winger from what I’ve seen.

I love a playmaker in CM, but these days that only really happens in a 3 and Mourinho just isn’t about that these days.

 

[swarvsta]

@SUIYHA lampard was indeed a great player and a pretty good passing but he was never a great playmaker or blessed with brilliant vision. It improved into his later twenties but he was always a relatively simple passer who’s main strength was getting close to the target man and into the box.

Lampard not a great playmaker or blessed with good vision? Jesus wept, are you serious?

Lampard’s vision and awareness were both fantastic attributes of his. He was slow on the turn and lacked pace, but his footballing brain kept him one step ahead. He was one of those midfielders who literally always had his head up and could pick a pass.

 

[Timberwolf]

Lampard not a great playmaker or blessed with good vision? Jesus wept, are you serious?

Lampard’s vision and awareness were both fantastic attributes of his. He was slow on the turn and lacked pace, but his footballing brain kept him one step ahead. He was one of those midfielders who literally always had his head up and could pick a pass.

Nah. Shit passer.

 

[Japhet]

I said earlier in the thread that I was surprised we’ve not been linked to Doucoure. If he’s a bit brawn over brain for people’s tastes, I also wouldn’t be against someone like McGinn who impressed me more than any other Villa player last year including Grealish.

I think any midfielder we do replace Ndombele with is going to be another all rounder, people praying for a playmaker just aren’t going to get it. The closest to that you’ll see in a Mourinho central midfield is Lo Celso or Modric, who while eye pleasing and able to create in slower paced La Liga, are transitional players in this league. Mourinho likes his flair in the final third and we’ve got a surplus of that, regardless of who we rate and how highly. This window is all about sensible and pragmatic, which means we fill the potholes in our road, not put speed bumps on smooth tarmac.

So much depends on how Mourinho wants to set up. With the signing of Doherty it looks quite likely we're in for more of the same with RB high up the pitch. Aurier had to be covered continually by Sissoko last season, but then we had no crativity in CM. Ideally I'd like us to have 3 in CM but then Mourinho has also seemed determined to get Dele on the pitch. With that in mind, I think we probably need a more workmanlike CM who has a decent defensive mindset if a CM2 is the way we're headed. In that case Sabitzer would be great but I think Brozovic might be a good fit too and may be a doable deal if Inter still want Tanguy. Winks would probably work reasonably well there too. Ndombele certainly wouldn't.