The balance between style of play vs results as a Tottenham Fan

[fishhhandaricecake]

I’m interested to get an idea of the balance of just how important style of play vs winning games and trophies is as a Spurs fan and the different factors that likely influence that.

I’ve made a poll with 3 hypothetical scenarios but discussion is also welcome.

The scenarios are:
Option 1) Very defensive boring style of play but over the course of 3 seasons we scrape over the line to win a League Cup of FA Cup. Imagine Joseball or poor Conteball or GeorgeGrahamball etc 80% of the time week in week out it’s frankly boring and a bit of a chore to watch us, the atmosphere in the stadium is pretty negative and toxic especially when we’re losing but we somehow get over the line to win a domestic cup trophy.

Are you ok with not particularly enjoying watching us play in exchange for the satisfaction of that cup win?

Option 2) A more balanced style of play but for some reason it takes us 5 years to win a domestic Cup Trophy. The style of play is ok and fairly enjoyable 50% of the time, we have moments of flowing football and some good performances and results as well as some poorer ones but we are fairly consistent and you know that you have a decent chance of enjoying watching us play. The atmosphere at the games is sometimes good and positive and enjoyable and sometimes a little flatter.

Is that type of balance better for you as a fan as whilst you’d like us to win, you’re ok if it takes a little longer if it means that watching or going to games isn’t a chore and so you get a bit of enjoyment in terms of the style and eventually a cup win but have to wait longer for it.

Option 3) Very enjoyable exciting style of playwe completely dominate games and suffocate teams, our energy is breathtaking, we keep a lot of possession, we create tons of chances, we score a lot of goals and we have lovely flowing passing moves, very easy on the eye, you rarely watch a game on TV or in person and think is this going to bore the pants off me. Think peak Pochball or peak Redknappball. We challenge to win and get close and every season there is excitement and positivity in the crowd, the atmosphere is fantastic most games and there is hope we can win but unfortunately we just fall short of winning.and we get close to winning, we are always in with a chance of winning each season and we are always challenging and making semis and finals but ultimately we fall short and don’t win a trophy over 5 seasons.

Is this more what you’d be ok with as a fan, you are excited to watch us about 80% of that time lots of benefits and enjoyment but we don’t quite get over the line to win a trophy.

I know this is all hypothetical and without influencing the results you might find it strange to vote for the 3rd option as it means not winning anything but have a good think about overall what is important to you right now in this day and age or in yesteryear about supporting Tottenham, is it completely utterly about winning trophies for you no matter what, is a balance of style and winning something you’d accept or does the enjoyment and experience come first as long as we are still competing and getting close to winning trophies and continue to have a chance to win in the future it just might take a bit longer. Of course ideally we play well most weeks and win a trophy or 2 but I think given the last 3 seasons of Jose, Nuno and Conteball this poll and discussion is quite relevant right now as things stand.

I also wonder what other factors effect the balance of what is most important to you and what your expectations are and what you’ll ultimately accept in exchange for your time and money and emotional energy…

•Age and length of time having supported the team
•How many times you’ve seen us win a trophy previously or not
•Do you watch games mainly on Tv?
•Do you spend your hard earned time and money on going to games either as a ST holder and/or travelling up and down the country to away games?
•Do you prefer seeing high energy attacking possession football and lots of shots and chances created or are you ok with a duller style IF it guaranteed a trophy win in x time period?

Other variables could be considered such as what if we ran the same poll but said instead of a domestic cup it was a Premier League title we won… I’m sure that would change the results fairly dramatically but I thought the above scenario was more realistic for us as a club right now.

For me I’ve seen us win 2 league cups and I was at both finals, the joy of those cup wins and days out was absolutely brilliant and memorable and I’m glad I’ve seen us win trophies even if they were only 2 ‘League Cups’ but I’ve also had incredible highs going to games home and away and in Europe under the likes of Martin Jol, Redknapp and Poch where whilst we didn’t win a trophy I had far more ‘time’ where I was actually enjoying supporting us, singing songs with friends and family soaking in the positive brilliant atmosphere, watching us score loads of goals, create tons of chances, have wonderful moments of passing play such as Modric,VDV,Bale,Lennon and the same under peak Pochball and for me if it’s a choice I’d take that more or less 80% week in week enjoyment over one domestic cup one off trophy win but others might have a different opinion of course.

So what is more important to you as a Spurs fan and where does the baldness lie between your want and need for an attractive attacking style of play and enjoyment of supporting the team and good atmosphere vs winning a trophy at all costs?

 

[chrissivad]

Option 2 - Balanced style

We need to win something, anything.
I would take boring football short term for some silverware, but I'm at a stage where I'm questioning why I'm even watching games anymore.

 

[Joe Bjorn Hotspur]

Option 2 - Balanced style

We need to win something, anything.
I would take boring football short term for some silverware, but I'm at a stage where I'm questioning why I'm even watching games anymore.

Totally understand your opinion. That’s the main reason why after the NLD I decided to have a break and put the following three PL home games on exchange. Alongside the overall toxicity (understandable at times but gets embarrassing with the booing and calling out of players). I would be lying to myself if I said I enjoy our style of play. If there was a balance I would appreciate that you have to dig in depending on the opponent but for every opponent so far bar Preston this is an issue for me. I am sure Conte is a lovely bloke, understand the wider issues personally off the pitch but I wouldn’t lose sleep when he eventually leaves. Yes the players we have are not particularly great but on paper they’re strong enough to have a plan B or C. Getting tired of it all. We’re all going round in circles and it just seems to be like Groundhog Day again and again.

 

[Joe Bjorn Hotspur]

I’m interested to get an idea of the balance of just how important style of play vs winning games and trophies is as a Spurs fan and the different factors that likely influence that.

I’ve made a poll with 3 hypothetical scenarios but discussion is also welcome.

The scenarios are:
Option 1) Very defensive boring style of play but over the course of 3 seasons we scrape over the line to win a League Cup of FA Cup. Imagine Joseball or poor Conteball or GeorgeGrahamball etc 80% of the time week in week out it’s frankly boring and a bit of a chore to watch us, the atmosphere in the stadium is pretty negative and toxic especially when we’re losing but we somehow get over the line to win a domestic cup trophy.

Are you ok with not particularly enjoying watching us play in exchange for the satisfaction of that cup win?

Option 2) A more balanced style of play but for some reason it takes us 5 years to win a domestic Cup Trophy. The style of play is ok and fairly enjoyable 50% of the time, we have moments of flowing football and some good performances and results as well as some poorer ones but we are fairly consistent and you know that you have a decent chance of enjoying watching us play. The atmosphere at the games is sometimes good and positive and enjoyable and sometimes a little flatter.

Is that type of balance better for you as a fan as whilst you’d like us to win, you’re ok if it takes a little longer if it means that watching or going to games isn’t a chore and so you get a bit of enjoyment in terms of the style and eventually a cup win but have to wait longer for it.

Option 3) Very enjoyable exciting style of playwe completely dominate games and suffocate teams, our energy is breathtaking, we keep a lot of possession, we create tons of chances, we score a lot of goals and we have lovely flowing passing moves, very easy on the eye, you rarely watch a game on TV or in person and think is this going to bore the pants off me. Think peak Pochball or peak Redknappball. We challenge to win and get close and every season there is excitement and positivity in the crowd, the atmosphere is fantastic most games and there is hope we can win but unfortunately we just fall short of winning.and we get close to winning, we are always in with a chance of winning each season and we are always challenging and making semis and finals but ultimately we fall short and don’t win a trophy over 5 seasons.

Is this more what you’d be ok with as a fan, you are excited to watch us about 80% of that time lots of benefits and enjoyment but we don’t quite get over the line to win a trophy.

I know this is all hypothetical and without influencing the results you might find it strange to vote for the 3rd option as it means not winning anything but have a good think about overall what is important to you right now in this day and age or in yesteryear about supporting Tottenham, is it completely utterly about winning trophies for you no matter what, is a balance of style and winning something you’d accept or does the enjoyment and experience come first as long as we are still competing and getting close to winning trophies and continue to have a chance to win in the future it just might take a bit longer. Of course ideally we play well most weeks and win a trophy or 2 but I think given the last 3 seasons of Jose, Nuno and Conteball this poll and discussion is quite relevant right now as things stand.

I also wonder what other factors effect the balance of what is most important to you and what your expectations are and what you’ll ultimately accept in exchange for your time and money and emotional energy…

•Age and length of time having supported the team
•How many times you’ve seen us win a trophy previously or not
•Do you watch games mainly on Tv?
•Do you spend your hard earned time and money on going to games either as a ST holder and/or travelling up and down the country to away games?
•Do you prefer seeing high energy attacking possession football and lots of shots and chances created or are you ok with a duller style IF it guaranteed a trophy win in x time period?

Other variables could be considered such as what if we ran the same poll but said instead of a domestic cup it was a Premier League title we won… I’m sure that would change the results fairly dramatically but I thought the above scenario was more realistic for us as a club right now.

For me I’ve seen us win 2 league cups and I was at both finals, the joy of those cup wins and days out was absolutely brilliant and memorable and I’m glad I’ve seen us win trophies even if they were only 2 ‘League Cups’ but I’ve also had incredible highs going to games home and away and in Europe under the likes of Martin Jol, Redknapp and Poch where whilst we didn’t win a trophy I had far more ‘time’ where I was actually enjoying supporting us, singing songs with friends and family soaking in the positive brilliant atmosphere, watching us score loads of goals, create tons of chances, have wonderful moments of passing play such as Modric,VDV,Bale,Lennon and the same under peak Pochball and for me if it’s a choice I’d take that more or less 80% week in week enjoyment over one domestic cup one off trophy win but others might have a different opinion of course.

So what is more important to you as a Spurs fan and where does the baldness lie between your want and need for an attractive attacking style of play and enjoyment of supporting the team and good atmosphere vs winning a trophy at all costs?

I would be half way between 2 & 3, the main reason for this was looking back thinking of the watershed moment when we were miles ahead of Liverpool beating them 4-1 at Wembley in 2017/18. The pressing style alongside a solid defensive base which most certainly benefitted Liverpool a year later.

Our 2nd place finish and record points total is easily forgotten about. The style of football now is outdated especially in the premier league. I know everyone has different opinions perhaps those younger than me think we are elite enough etc but I don’t. We’ve just overachieved and at times where we all know the chairman should’ve backed managers, to push on, taken that punt we didn’t.

We’ve been punching above our weight for a decade being in and out of the CL, reaching the CL final which was a pinch yourself moment as I wouldn’t dream of us being in one in my lifetime.

There’s been a lot of bad luck alongside bad recruitment and owners who are also punching above their weight: even Levy admitted this in other words. If Conte had City’s budget he wins if not he doesn’t. We are not this club. That’s why I don’t get angry as why be surprised?

Want an attacking style of play with a younger squad. If we cannot do it now with turgid football when will we. Just want to enjoy watching us.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

It’s a bit flawed. Because I enjoy watching a team put in a defensive masterpiece and winning. I am a firm believer that defense wins championships.

The first choice is written as though winning is accidental and not enjoyable to watch on its own.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

They are not independent of each other - at the end of last season even though there have been tactical changes this season even Conte's side managed to be entertaining with a high intensity - mostly I believe people want to see aggressive front foot football taking the game to the opposition - though last Sunday we saw a good defensive performance that brought about a win but I tend to agree with Souness the Spurs crowd overall want to see attacking possession based football played through the midfield and that will bring you success

 

[GetKaned]

Man.. I am tired of choosing either/or. Why can't there be attacking football that wins trophies ?

Hell.. I would even take defensive football that wins trophies. Being pinned in and having no ability on the ball is not defensive football.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

It’s a bit flawed. Because I enjoy watching a team put in a defensive masterpiece and winning. I am a firm believer that defense wins championships.

The first choice is written as though winning is accidental and not enjoyable to watch on its own.

I think the defence part was always true up until the last maybe ten years where the game has become so skewed towards the attacking players - now even though having strong back four is obviously a must even two of those defenders your full backs are attacking outlets

 

[Cel]

Man.. I am tired of choosing either/or. Why can't there be attacking football that wins trophies ?

Hell.. I would even take defensive football that wins trophies. Being pinned in and having no ability on the ball is not defensive football.

I'd go as far as it makes you more likely to - the top 4 currently all play attacking, attractive football. Liverpool and City have dominated the league with it for a number of years. I think football has moved on from the Mourinho low block, as it tends to do, and evolved. Not to say it wont work playing back foot, defensive football, but to say it's the only way to win, or even that you are more likely too, is blatently false.

 

[spursfan1991]

Their is still value with a pragmatic approach provided by the likes of jose and conte in other leagues and cups. However, EPL seems to have moved on from this rapidly in the past 4 years. Spurs look miles off from winning ANY trophy in England with this approach and it is not entertaining to watch.

10 to 20 years ago, fans wouldnt have complained about this style but nowadays, entertainment options are endless. You have dozens of streaming platforms, social media apps galore and incredible value in online gaming. Then you also have the situation where many people are having to work more than one job. Why put yourself watching a team sitting back and hoping for a goal on the counter when you can do any of the above?

 

[tobi]

A balanced style of play.

Conte needs to reduce the importance of the automations, the players are trying to do what he wants but it's not working this season.

When one pass doesn't connect suddenly the opposition has a big area to attack and most of the players panic as a result of being out of position.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

My heart says number 3 but my head says 2.

went for 2

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Very interesting responses guys & gals. So it seems that so far the general consensus is that there is a balance to this, winning is important but not completely at the detriment to very rarely enjoying the experience of and style of play of each match week by week.

The fact that option 1 has only about a 10% vote at this point to me also is good evidence as to why there is so much negativity and anger and toxicity on here and in the grounds when we lose this season and the previous 2 season because the balance is too far towards poor boring unentertaining football whilst so far not having produced a trophy at the end of it.

Circumstances and variables are always changing but very interesting to see what people are thinking right now and especially after the last 3 years under Jose, Nuno and now Conte.

If at the end of this season for example we win the FA Cup and come 5th that will have been 3 years of about 70-80% of the time fairly unwatchable football in exchange for an FA Cup, if so then that would just about be ok because we are long overdue a trophy but if we don’t win the FA Cup this season then personally I’d prefer to get a manager in this summer who plays better football so the week by week experience is much more enjoyable and if we recruit we’ll we’d probably have just as much chance of winning the League cup or FA Cup over the next 3 year period anyway….

 

[whitesocks]

Against arsenal, the result is the only thing that matters.
Many would extend that to games against chelsea and wham.
Until we win the title, I'd extend that plan to anyone in the top 4. Points by any means. Take them down a peg.

But we should not be playing defensively against anyone else - certainly no-one below us.
We are meant to be showing them we are the better side and are above on merit. That we look better coached and organised. That we are technically better. Not to humiliate but to show quality. Dominate the play.

 

[H-SF]

This is a flawed question because 'defensive' football is fundamentally not successful anymore. All the best teams press high dominate the ball and pass out from the back. Its not a trade off where its like - top 4 and nice football or win the prem with shit football. Instead, its be shit playing shit football or be good playing good football. Easy decision.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

Very interesting responses guys & gals. So it seems that so far the general consensus is that there is a balance to this, winning is important but not completely at the detriment to very rarely enjoying the experience of and style of play of each match week by week.

The fact that option 1 has only about a 10% vote at this point to me also is good evidence as to why there is so much negativity and anger and toxicity on here and in the grounds when we lose this season and the previous 2 season because the balance is too far towards poor boring unentertaining football whilst so far not having produced a trophy at the end of it.

Circumstances and variables are always changing but very interesting to see what people are thinking right now and especially after the last 3 years under Jose, Nuno and now Conte.

If at the end of this season for example we win the FA Cup and come 5th that will have been 3 years of about 70-80% of the time fairly unwatchable football in exchange for an FA Cup, if so then that would just about be ok because we are long overdue a trophy but if we don’t win the FA Cup this season then personally I’d prefer to get a manager in this summer who plays better football so the week by week experience is much more enjoyable and if we recruit we’ll we’d probably have just as much chance of winning the League cup or FA Cup over the next 3 year period anyway….

Makes you wonder whether the club surveyed the fans on this or had any understanding of entertainment value.

More and more I think our board are clueless.

 

[Dannyspur]

Style of play is secondary to putting in a shift, whether it be pressing high up the pitch, backs to the wall defending an onslaught, fast counter attacking football, constantly looking for space to make yourself available for a pass etc. I am 66 and have seen us try pretty much every style - what I hate most is the turgid, side to side pedestrian stuff we seem to get on a regular basis nowadays. Italian football was always like this, the difference being that they seemed to be able to change things in a flash with sudden lightening pace or skill to get through the packed defenses, whereas we seem to just keep going at the same pace backwards and forwards side to side until we finally hand over the ball to the other side.
I hate spending a whole day traveling to and from the games and feeling that I have put in more effort than some of the players.

I want to see exciting football but I would love to see us win something again before I peg it! I voted 2.

 

[Joe Bjorn Hotspur]

Style of play is secondary to putting in a shift, whether it be pressing high up the pitch, backs to the wall defending an onslaught, fast counter attacking football, constantly looking for space to make yourself available for a pass etc. I am 66 and have seen us try pretty much every style - what I hate most is the turgid, side to side pedestrian stuff we seem to get on a regular basis nowadays. Italian football was always like this, the difference being that they seemed to be able to change things in a flash with sudden lightening pace or skill to get through the packed defenses, whereas we seem to just keep going at the same pace backwards and forwards side to side until we finally hand over the ball to the other side.
I hate spending a whole day traveling to and from the games and feeling that I have put in more effort than some of the players.

I want to see exciting football but I would love to see us win something again before I peg it! I voted 2.

Spot on and totally share your frustration: 5 hours there and back for me. Then those who travel further afield come from all over the world to watch the dross. We fans put in the effort: this is not being reflected on the pitch. After the NLD I was still in the stands when the Arsenal fans left: as I needed to recollect my thoughts and process what on earth that was from this team. I will most definitely keep my ST but at times I do question what are we all paying for. Since I worked so hard to get it in the first place I keep telling myself one day we will get a more balance / attacking style of play back.

I am in a lucky position where I can step away as the realities of the round trip is a long and not so cheap one: at present also not worth putting the effort into as much.

I will be at the Milan home leg and Forest PL games but I’d imagine if not much changes I will put the rest up (April & May home games) on exchange as it’s an expensive hobby travelling and not worth the hassle when the football is tiresome, fans at the ground getting toxic. Football for me is meant to be an escape from all this BS that we are served up in life on an everyday basis and I’ve also found the social media hostility mentality is creeping more widely into the ground.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

This is a flawed question because 'defensive' football is fundamentally not successful anymore. All the best teams press high dominate the ball and pass out from the back. Its not a trade off where its like - top 4 and nice football or win the prem with shit football. Instead, its be shit playing shit football or be good playing good football. Easy decision.

Well I’d argue it isn’t a flawed question because the idea was also to bring about discussion points such as yours above which I happen to agree with to an extent, however if conte did somehow win us the FA Cup this season then it would show that ‘defensive’ football can still be successful to an extent say in shorter cup competitions.

Also again in terms of the frustration and negativity I think a lot of it does stem from your points in that typical traditional more rigid ‘defensive’ football doesn’t seem to be as successful more recently and so we’ve actually wasted a lot of time since poch left by trying to chase an instant fix quick win approach with ‘serial winner but defensive style managers’ when a better approach would’ve and probably still would be appointing a manager who plays a more progressive attacking possession based style.