The Defence Thread

[tototoner]

Remember Liverpool just over 2 seasons ago, great going forward but a dodgy defence always leaking goals.

That's where I see us right now and only a few signings can make a massive difference.

 

[Wizzy77]

Remember Liverpool just over 2 seasons ago, great going forward but a dodgy defence always leaking goals.

That's where I see us right now and only a few signings can make a massive difference.

We are one quality centreback and an defensive midfielder away to become genuine contenders.

 

[shelfboy68]

Have seen a lot of coverage of our defensive woes in different player threads, so instead of trying to blame every individual then I think it's worth aggregating it in one place and trying to think of where things are going wrong and more importantly, what the solutions are.

In a most un-Mourinho but very Tottenham type way, we now appear to have a devastating attack that can blow teams away but a defence that is ultimately costing us far too many points. We are now up to ten games in a row without a clean sheet (statisticians help me out please - when was the last time we went on a run so bad?) and whilst I fully accept that some of our attacking players also deserve some blame for not killing certain games off at vital moments, the fact is we are dropping points and are vulnerable because of an inability to defend at important moments. Let's say Liverpool (at least pre-Van Dijk injury) go three goals up in a game, or even two goals up in a game - the opposition's heads drop and they stop trying, as they know there's no chance of getting it back. But with us - teams know that even when Kane, Son and co are firing, they feel they can still nick a goal and turn it around, so they keep banging on the door.

On one hand - you can say that nobody bar Villa look particularly strong defensively this season - that the new handball rules are giving away more penalties, the lack of crowds changes the dynamics, and that if we'd held on five minutes longer we'd have the second best defensive record in the league. But what I think is - these "wondergoals" and "bullshit decisions" seem to happen to us more often than they need to, partially because we allow ourselves to get into negative positions where bad luck can go against us.

In the Skriniar thread before the window closed, I wrote:



My opinion hasn't changed - I don't think any of our CBs are good enough unless Rodon turns out to be the next big thing. We are still giving away too many needless fouls in dangerous positions and failing to deal with the oncoming set pieces. We are still conceding too many goals because of poor concentration and poor technical ability amongst our defenders. I love Hugo and think he's massively improved since lockdown, but I also think that if we'd had the genuine 10/10 transfer window people were going on about, then instead of Joe Hart we'd have signed a top class, younger keeper who could be Hugo's long term successor - Lanzini's goal was a brilliant strike but I couldn't help but think if Hugo has got a hand to it he should be strong enough to keep it out - maybe I'm being harsh but it still feels like he's not as reliable as some of his rivals.

I also think tactically we're letting ourselves down. Easy for me to say with hindsight that the subs were wrong, but we've seen multiple games now where teams punish us with set-pieces and us regressing deeper as teams push forward in hope of getting something out of the game. Yesterday we should have brought on Davies instead of Moura and gone three/five at the back - if our CBs are making too many mistakes then we need more bodies back to help them and minimise the space for the opposition. Aurier, Doherty and Reguilon all appear better suited to wing-back roles anyway, so I'm not sure why we are not experimenting more with three at the back as I think it removes a lot of the burden on the likes of Sanchez or Dier having a brain fart if there are two other CBs to cover them.

We're stuck with the current bunch until January at least - but we urgently need to figure out how to sort out this mess if we're going to genuinely compete. Thoughts, suggestions, solutions - let's have 'em.

We don't seem to have found the balance of the post lockdown grinding results with a few clean sheets with the lighting attacks who look like scoring buckets of goals.

 

[NEVILLEB]

It’s as complicated as we’ve bought shit defenders

 

[NEVILLEB]

This thread is a bit sensationalist to me. Our defence is not perfect and yesterday was not pretty, but anyone who has been watching other games (or MotD) will be aware that the majority of our rivals have worse defences than ours - based on performances over the first five games, not just the poor half a game that ours had yesterday. If our defence is as bad as some of you are making out, most other defences in the PL must be an utter embarrassment...cos they're worse than ours.

48 hours ago, we had the best goal difference in the league. We had scored the joint most PL goals while conceding the second fewest. Only one team in the PL had conceded fewer goals than us (Aston Villa).

We hadn't kept a clean sheet (would have if not for the penalty against Newcastle), but we had been playing attacking football and scoring far more than we conceded. 2/5 goals conceded were ridiculous penalties for "hand ball", while 3 could have been avoided with better defending. For me, that is very acceptable.

We had an awful (but brief) defensive spell yesterday, which cost us the game. Despite this, we've still conceded fewer goals than Liverpool, Chelsea and Man United. Most of the teams who have conceded fewer goals than us are below us in the table, because they can't/don't attack well enough. If it wasn't for that ridiculous penalty against Newcastle, we would be 3rd in the league and only two teams would have conceded fewer goals than us.

If we still had a CB pairing of Toby and Jan in their prime, our defence would be better than it is right now and we would concede fewer goals. We'd have an extra 3 points (goalless draw against Everton and a win against West Ham), but would still have drawn 1-1 against Newcastle, because even the very best CBs flail their arms if pushed in the back mid-jump. We would be 3rd in the league - the stupid handball rule has had as much impact on our league position as our defensive errors have.

After the next round of games it is very possible that we'll be back to having the second best defence in the league, in terms of goals conceded.

We are only 5 games into this season.

These defensive problems go back years!

 

[Neon_Knight_]

We are only 5 games into this season.

These defensive problems go back years!

The OP is clearly about the current defence and how it is currently performing, based on the games that we have played this season. The fact that we have only played five games only reinforces my point that the thread is sensationalist.

I am highlighting that during the period the OP is criticising our defence for, it has generally been one of the best in the league - based on goals conceded - except for one awful 10-minute spell. Fact, not opinion, that is directly relevant to the OP.

How are historic defensive problems relevant to the OP or my reply?

 

[Shadydan]

We are one quality centreback and an defensive midfielder away to become genuine contenders.

Thought we already bought one of those?

 

[NEVILLEB]

The OP is clearly about the current defence and how it is currently performing, based on the games that we have played this season. The fact that we have only played five games only reinforces my point that the thread is sensationalist.

I am highlighting that during the period the OP is criticising our defence for, it has generally been one of the best in the league - based on goals conceded - except for one awful 10-minute spell. Fact, not opinion, that is directly relevant to the OP.

How are historic defensive problems relevant to the OP or my reply?

Because the players making the mistakes have been making mistakes in a Tottenham shirt for years that’s why. ?

 

[Mark_147]

We don't seem to have found the balance of the post lockdown grinding results with a few clean sheets with the lighting attacks who look like scoring buckets of goals.

The difference between now and post lockdown is we are now conceding more goals from set pieces.

 

[buckley]

All clubs are conceding more goals since lockdown also there are more away wins and home advantage is almost non existent .
Just goes to show that the saying " the crowd can be the twelfth man " really seems up to now this season to be true .
I think its because players are playing with less inhibition and no fear . Only my opinion of course .

 

[Shadydan]

All clubs are conceding more goals since lockdown also there are more away wins and home advantage is almost non existent .
Just goes to show that the saying " the crowd can be the twelfth man " really seems up to now this season to be true .
I think its because players are playing with less inhibition and no fear . Only my opinion of course .

Good point this.

 

[dvdhopeful]

The defence is a concern, but I would argue yesterday was more about mentality then personnel.

Once their first goes in, it's the responsibility of everybody to shut the game down, shithouse, kill time. It's that mentality we need to foster in order to adapt our game to specific situations. I'd rather see the game killed than us go for a fourth in that situation.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Why have a thread about something we don't have in the team. Should I make "the sexiest brunette thread?"

 

[TheRevolution]

Thought we already bought one of those?

I love Hojbjerg and the way he plays. I'd argue however that his biggest strengths are his pressing, energy and unexpectedly his passing. A very dangerous player in transition. I think a deeply lying DM is still needed though. Someone like a Fabinho or Matic who win the ball back and spray it around the pitch.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I love Hojbjerg and the way he plays. I'd argue however that his biggest strengths are his pressing, energy and unexpectedly his passing. A very dangerous player in transition. I think a deeply lying DM is still needed though. Someone like a Fabinho or Matic who win the ball back and spray it around the pitch.

And then when we start Højbjerg with that deep lying player watch this place go nuts at mourinho for being overly defensive/ not playing both Lo Celso and Ndombele.

 

[DiVaio]

We are only 5 games into this season.

These defensive problems go back years!

Our defensive problems this season and before are completely different.

 

[idontgetit]

It's hard for the opposition to win late freekicks and get the ball in your area if they don't have the ball and are stuck in their own half. Not that I don't think a world class CB should be a top priority.

 

[SUIYHA]

This thread is a bit sensationalist to me. Our defence is not perfect and yesterday was not pretty, but anyone who has been watching other games (or MotD) will be aware that the majority of our rivals have worse defences than ours - based on performances over the first five games, not just the poor half a game that ours had yesterday. If our defence is as bad as some of you are making out, most other defences in the PL must be an utter embarrassment...cos they're worse than ours.

48 hours ago, we had the best goal difference in the league. We had scored the joint most PL goals while conceding the second fewest. Only one team in the PL had conceded fewer goals than us (Aston Villa).

We hadn't kept a clean sheet (would have if not for the penalty against Newcastle), but we had been playing attacking football and scoring far more than we conceded. 2/5 goals conceded were ridiculous penalties for "hand ball", while 3 could have been avoided with better defending. For me, that is very acceptable.

We had an awful (but brief) defensive spell yesterday, which cost us the game. Despite this, we've still conceded fewer goals than Liverpool, Chelsea and Man United. Most of the teams who have conceded fewer goals than us are below us in the table, because they can't/don't attack well enough. If it wasn't for that ridiculous penalty against Newcastle, we would be 3rd in the league and only two teams would have conceded fewer goals than us.

If we still had a CB pairing of Toby and Jan in their prime, our defence would be better than it is right now and we would concede fewer goals. We'd have an extra 3 points (goalless draw against Everton and a win against West Ham), but would still have drawn 1-1 against Newcastle, because even the very best CBs flail their arms if pushed in the back mid-jump. We would be 3rd in the league - the stupid handball rule has had as much impact on our league position as our defensive errors have.

After the next round of games it is very possible that we'll be back to having the second best defence in the league, in terms of goals conceded.

I agree - and mentioned in the OP that the new handball rules have affected things and that everyone seems to be conceding a bit more than they used to. That being said - you can't put your fingers in your ears and pretend everything is ok - this side's defensive problems go further back than just the introduction of this new handball rule. Under Poch we'd always be in the top three for least goals conceded in the league, last season we were down to 7th - and that's just looking at goals conceded - there were only four teams that had less clean sheets than us in the league last year and two of them were relegated. Come to think of it, I doubt we've had more than ten clean sheets in all competitions since the Champions League final.

Lots of brilliant attacking teams across Premier League history have fallen short of greatness because they have dropped too many points through sloppy defensive mistakes - Keegan's Newcastle, Rodgers' Liverpool, a few different Wenger sides - if we're serious about challenging at the top then we need to have one of the best defences in the league to do so, and quite frankly I don't see how anyone can look at the current crop and say that they are.

 

[fortworthspur]

We are only 5 games into this season.

These defensive problems go back years!

not that many years. 2 seasons ago we were tied 3rd best GA. 3rd best the season before, and best overall in 2016/17.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

I agree - and mentioned in the OP that the new handball rules have affected things and that everyone seems to be conceding a bit more than they used to. That being said - you can't put your fingers in your ears and pretend everything is ok - this side's defensive problems go further back than just the introduction of this new handball rule. Under Poch we'd always be in the top three for least goals conceded in the league, last season we were down to 7th - and that's just looking at goals conceded - there were only four teams that had less clean sheets than us in the league last year and two of them were relegated. Come to think of it, I doubt we've had more than ten clean sheets in all competitions since the Champions League final.

Lots of brilliant attacking teams across Premier League history have fallen short of greatness because they have dropped too many points through sloppy defensive mistakes - Keegan's Newcastle, Rodgers' Liverpool, a few different Wenger sides - if we're serious about challenging at the top then we need to have one of the best defences in the league to do so, and quite frankly I don't see how anyone can look at the current crop and say that they are.

So far this season I'm struggling to see any top quality, solid defences. Who do you think the best two or three defences in the league are?

Aston Villa have been tight at the back, but I can't see that lasting long. Liverpool have conceded 13 in 5 games (most before VVD got crocked!), United 12, Chelsea 9, Leicester 8, Man City 7, Arsenal 6...and we've only conceded 6 goals that weren't ridiculous decisions - suggesting our defence is better (or less bad) than that all of five teams who finished above us last season, and equal to Arsenal's.

Chelsea have conceded 3 goals twice in five games so far, Arsenal once, Leicester once. Our other three big rivals for top 4 have all conceded 5-7 goals in a single match. Based on that, I don't think a 10-minute blip is enough for us to start panicking over...only if it becomes a regular occurrence this season. Everything that happened last year was during an awful spell where morale was in their boots and then we were going through a transition period with a new manager.